Why do people insist on killing prices?

[Calerxes]

Not all. In some MMORPGs (not many) the monetary unit is representative of in-game goods. For example, someone in a game with a true economy who mines for resources would obtain an equivalent quantity of monetary units in exchange for those resources. They are not generated out of nothing, they have real value within the game itself, and both the value of the currency and its quantity reflects the wealth that exists within the system as a whole, as generated by player activity.

 

A simulated economy can be compared to a sink. Someone turns on the faucet and monetary units are generated and added to the system, be it by killing a mob, opening a chest, or completing a mission. These monetary units are not representative of the wealth found within the system. They have no value. Additionally, their value never changes. These currencies can be added to a simulated economic system without restraint, and overflow without a way to remove them from the system. Money sinks serve as a drain, fulfilling the need to remove monetary units and prevent the sink from destroying your bathroom.

 

 

All MMO's have simulated economies then as you have to have an amount of money in the system in the first place for resources to be worth something and thus bought, short of giving every player 10,000 gold/creds when they first start playing. If there is no money available you would then have a barter system but no MMO's that I know have that system so money is always generated from missions, selling junk etc... and because it generated out of thin air you need money sinks to control inflation. Even EvE has an economy like this as when you start you run missions for NPC factions, mine ore and sell it to NPC factions etc... and the money sinks there are factory fee's, NPC faction shops, Insurance, Clones and the severe Death Penalty and EvE is touted to have one of the best economies out there.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Calerxes

[HeavensAgent]

All MMO's have simulated economies then as you have to have an amount of money in the system in the first place for resources to be worth something and thus bought, short of giving every player 10,000 gold/creds when they first start playing. If there is no money available you would then have a barter system but no MMO's that I know have that system so money is always generated from missions, selling junk etc... and because it generated out of thin air you need money sinks to control inflation. Even EvE has an economy like this as when you start you run missions for NPC factions, mine ore and sell it to NPC factions etc... and the money sinks there are factory fee's, NPC faction shops, Insurance, Clones and the severe Death Penalty and EvE is touted to have one of the best economies out there.

It seems you don't understanding how a real economic system works, and as a result how it can be applied to a virtual environment. If you have to have money in the first place for resources to have value, how do real-world economic systems develop? When they form, there is no currency upon which to base them. The wealth in those systems has to come from somewhere, something that already exists.

 

Resources that are available in limited quantities always have value. In a real economic system currency is nothing more than a way to represent that value, to make it tangible, manageable, and, most importantly, portable. There is a direct link between the currency and the resources that back it, and as a result the currency itself has real value. I've never played the game but from what I've been told, and what you confirm here, EVE supports some elements of a real economic system. Not entirely, granted, but the elements are there.

[Elmillia]

So, I sold 3 Advanced Skill augment 22's on the GTN for 130k each earlier, after I made a few more, someone was sellling one for 130k so I put mines up for 129k, then I check back later, and unlike me reducing price 1k, people have been putting up sales for 130k 120k 105k 90k, why oh why? They sell fast enough, there's really no need to drop them so much in price it's just not needed..

 

As im being pretty specific about it being Advanced Skill aug 22, I'd imagine this goes on for alot of other items in-game...

 

Anyway, had some time to kill so figured i'd vent a little heat on the forums

Because it costs me something like 10k-15k to make them. Why should i sell them for 130k?

[Fleurdelis]

I dont know about anyone else but i make the advanced overkill 22 augments and the neurals gotten from slicing to be really coming up very rarely lately. I have 2 toons with 400 slicing and i can play for 8 hours and constantly send them out on missions to get them and may only get from 3-6 in that time. This makes the components expensive so the augment price goes up. Takes 4 neurals for 1 augment. If they were gathered more frequently then the augment price would drop.

[Kitzinger]

They need to be around 40 to 60k.. Anymore is simply robbery.

Says you. An augment kit requires 10 crafted items to be RE'd plus materials on top of that... I stocked up but still there is time and effort to factor in and I value my time and effort.

An augment requires 4 purples and a few other materials. You will be lucky to get a crit hit if you have slicing 1 time out of 10... Total cost is about 40k plus time = about 100k per augment. Anything less than that and it isn't worth the time or effort to make them. You also have to figure in the recoup costs of just trying to learn the augments. To me 100k-110k is fair. This allows me to keep my stock on hand up and earn a small profit. 90k is break even point. Under 90k and the person is actually spending more than he is getting back. A person doing this is just trying to get rid of what they have and after they are gone the market will adjust back up.

[tausser]

This has been an interesting thread for me because, not having any crafting skills at all (I only take Scavanging and Slicing), I was never sure how the high prices on so much stuff on the GTN were arrived at, whether it was actually reflective of the costs involved or simply greed.

 

I mean, if the materials cost 50k and you charge 55, 60 or 65k, that seems a reasonable mark-up for your time and effort. If, on the other hand, it costs 50k and you're charging 130k, that would seem to be just greed. Still if someone is willing to pay that 130k, well, a fool and his creds are soon parted.

[Razot]

Lol @ op

[Snakeyees]

never mind not worth the input Edited July 14, 2012 by Snakeyees

[oleost]

So, I sold 3 Advanced Skill augment 22's on the GTN for 130k each earlier, after I made a few more, someone was sellling one for 130k so I put mines up for 129k, then I check back later, and unlike me reducing price 1k, people have been putting up sales for 130k 120k 105k 90k, why oh why? They sell fast enough, there's really no need to drop them so much in price it's just not needed..

 

As im being pretty specific about it being Advanced Skill aug 22, I'd imagine this goes on for alot of other items in-game...

 

Anyway, had some time to kill so figured i'd vent a little heat on the forums

 

I think what your doing is just as stupid as the other guys, or worse.

 

Yeah, sure. Everyone want to sell theyr stuff, but why should you have the right to sell your item before someone else that had the item up longer that you?!

 

Its like this the prizes drops, seen it alot of times, 1 guy sells it for 130k, next guy puts it up for 129k, and the next guy after that 128k and so the game goes on and on. And suddenly its only worth 80k.

[Elmillia]

Says you. An augment kit requires 10 crafted items to be RE'd plus materials on top of that... I stocked up but still there is time and effort to factor in and I value my time and effort.

An augment requires 4 purples and a few other materials. You will be lucky to get a crit hit if you have slicing 1 time out of 10... Total cost is about 40k plus time = about 100k per augment. Anything less than that and it isn't worth the time or effort to make them. You also have to figure in the recoup costs of just trying to learn the augments. To me 100k-110k is fair. This allows me to keep my stock on hand up and earn a small profit. 90k is break even point. Under 90k and the person is actually spending more than he is getting back. A person doing this is just trying to get rid of what they have and after they are gone the market will adjust back up.

 

The majority of the resources needed to make augments can be found in the world. The only thing you need to pay for is the mission skill resources. 5 to 15k max A green critical augment 22 is only worth 5k. A purple? I'll sell it for 50k max.

 

I make more than enough credits from dailies. I dont see the need to make profit on the GTN. I put mine up to help outfit those that dont have them.

[Calerxes]

It seems you don't understanding how a real economic system works, and as a result how it can be applied to a virtual environment. If you have to have money in the first place for resources to have value, how do real-world economic systems develop? When they form, there is no currency upon which to base them. The wealth in those systems has to come from somewhere, something that already exists.

 

Resources that are available in limited quantities always have value. In a real economic system currency is nothing more than a way to represent that value, to make it tangible, manageable, and, most importantly, portable. There is a direct link between the currency and the resources that back it, and as a result the currency itself has real value. I've never played the game but from what I've been told, and what you confirm here, EVE supports some elements of a real economic system. Not entirely, granted, but the elements are there.

 

 

OK I stated quite flippantly that... "Hey! wait a minute I thought there was no economy in SW:TOR?"

 

And you told me... "You are correct, there really isn't; a simulated economy is not really an economy at all."

 

I asked... "Can you expand on why its a simulated economy?" as I'm not an economist, so you explain to me what the difference is and I then conclude that from your description that all MMO economies are simulated included the most famous player driven one, Eve, where they supposedly have a full time economist overlooking it. But my point is... No MMO has a "real" economy so we have to put with a simulated one and to my uneducated eye is still an economy to us players, talking economic semantics will not change that fact as all games are simulated as are not "real" that is all really.

[jmsutton]

Here's a question I have, because people keep talking about 'time cost' and how it takes time to gather the materials and send your companions out on mission and craft stuff.

 

Have those people ever played this game? Your companions gather materials for you (or you send them on gathering missions), you send them on missions to get the metals, they do the crafting for you. Literally the ONLY thing that actually takes you any time is Reverse Engineering stuff. I can gather a stack of lvl 6 Underworld metals in an evening of playing and it takes a grand total of 45 seconds out of my dailies and PvP (open crew skill window, accept rewards, send them back out again)

 

Where is this time/opportunity cost coming from? People treat it as if you can't do anything else while you're crafting, but you can do anything you want. You can easily craft two dozen items while you finish Black Hole dailies AT THE SAME TIME.

[chronotrigger]

I have a hobby that consists of breaking markets.

 

I love to stack on an item then sell it for basically nothing.

 

Already broke the Biometric Alloy market on my server (not alone though, but I would go berserk at this lowering prices trend), now proceeding to break the Aug Kit market.

 

 

I just like to make goodies available to everyone, so I lower the prices.

 

See, the above poster has realized that things have to be affordable to everyone. Ive studied MMO economics as a part hobby, and while there are many, many similarities to be drawn between virtual and physical economic structures, the simple bottom line is that MMO players go too far. No one is forced to buy things from the GTN to compete in the game, but seeing a green pistol for a level 15 character posted for 10k or more always makes me laugh. If this is your first level 15, you do not have 15k to piss away on a pistol upgrade, and if you have a sugar daddy alt, why would you justify spending that much for a very temporary upgrade?

 

People have highly unreasonable expectations of what things are "worth", and while you are even now hitting reply to tell me "Its worth what someone will spend", Im countering you with "This is why people buy in-game currencies, which you will no doubt cry, gnash your teeth, and wail about to the high heavens, while youre posting your green medkits at prices that you know damn well players dont have sitting around."

 

But you didnt see that, because you didnt read my whole post.

 

Whiskey Echo!!

chronotrigger

[Nimithril]

130k for 22's is completely absurd. Folks have as much right to lower the price as you do to rob people over their credits with your absurd prices.

 

The price per item is whatever the market will bear....in other words, whatever people are willing to pay at that time. Absurdity has nothing to do with it.

[testszag]

If this is your first level 15, you do not have 15k to piss away on a pistol upgrade, and if you have a sugar daddy alt, why would you justify spending that much for a very temporary upgrade?

 

because i want to. do i need any other reason?

[KBSIP]

The price per item is whatever the market will bear....in other words, whatever people are willing to pay at that time. Absurdity has nothing to do with it.

 

it has as much to do with what people are willing to sell it for to expedite the process. 130k per augment is going to severely limit your market access, especially when relatively equal alternatives are available for ~ 10% of that price. The people who undercut prices on the GTN, either through bulk selling or flipping, force the price down and serve the function of making the item more appealing to a wider market, improving credits flow. The absurdity comes from people actually trying to charge almost pure profit on a relatively easy to craft item. "time spent" isn't a factor since everything is handled by crew skills while you play the game, so the only legitimate factor in overhead of production is how many credits you spend on the missions.

[Keta]

because i want to. do i need any other reason?

 

 

No you don't. Just as those of us who enjoy driving prices down don't need any reason either.

[boxfetish]

130k for 22's is completely absurd. Folks have as much right to lower the price as you do to rob people over their credits with your absurd prices.

 

This.

 

On the other hand, I have a problem with peeps who put up everything at the default sell price that the GTN sets and don't even bother to check out the going rate, thereby undercutting everyone by a factor of 5x or 10x simply because they made millions upon millions of credits the first two months the game was live due to poor game design.

[testszag]

No you don't. Just as those of us who enjoy driving prices down don't need any reason either.

 

my point was that i do not need to justify anything. if i want it, i'll get it. fact is, as i posted earlier, i am one of those that will undercut. i just don't do it based on some moral justification. i do it becasue i like how mad some people get over it. best example being the op

[ZudetGambeous]

I love when that happens, you shouldn't be complaining. If the price falls all the way down to 90k then just buy them all at 90k and relist at 130k, instant 30k (after GTN fee) profit.

[Kalfear]

Here's how 130k is legit pricing.

 

The cost of Advanced Neural Augmentors on the GTN is 19-22k. Let's call it 20k. So that's 80k in cost of goods to produce the augment and you haven't even gotten to the metals or gems or whatever else you need to put into it to make it. So let's call it 85k.

 

If you sell it for less than 85k, you could make more money selling the raw materials.

 

The GTN takes 5% of your sale. To break even on 85k worth of materials, you have to list it for about 89,500.

 

It takes you time to gain your skill, reverse engineer to the purple schematic, manage and gather resources, even if you buy them from GTN, manage your sales, etc. How much profit is that worth? Do you want 20%? Is that fair? (Probably cheap, so let's go with that.)

 

20% profit on top of 85k is 17,000, so you want to have an after-GTN-fee return of 102,000 if you want a 20% profit margin. To get that, you have to list the piece for about 107,400.

 

130k is not outside the realm of reason. Take GTN's fee off that and you're at 123,500 for a profit of 38,500 or about 45%, which is absolutely reasonable for a (real-world), highly-coveted item.

 

But, hey, post 'em up for whatever you want. If you post too low, I'll buy 'em and relist until you run out of resources.

 

LOL, I have a 400 skill pretty much across the board on crafting skills

 

IT DOESNT take that much time or money or resources.

 

I dare say the only real money ive spent on crafting has come from running treasure hunter missions for grade 6 gems. Other then that all crafts can be maxed out for under 150 k credits if you dont go for purple schematics.

 

You are trying to cover your entire crafting cost from 0-400 in one sale!

 

THATS PRICE GOUGING, nothing but

 

This is the mentality that was so obvious in SWG and turned so many people off. Over loaded prices for stuff.

 

I beleive crafters have a right to make a profit, but its +10% of item cost, not + 1000% of item cost!

 

Good luck buying my stuff and reselling, the mats are so easy to get that ill never actually be out of the items so you will be trying to corner market on a insanely easy thing to produce.

 

You will be bankrupt long before Id ever run out of items to under cut you with!

 

Smarter move would be to lower your 1000% mark up to reasonable levels.

[Wallach]

Sometimes I catch people trying to drive down prices on some commodity with value walls, so I just buy out the entire wall and stabilize the price myself. They make money, I make money, I suspect they don't care. So I certainly don't.

[HeavensAgent]

I asked... "Can you expand on why its a simulated economy?" as I'm not an economist, so you explain to me what the difference is and I then conclude that from your description that all MMO economies are simulated included the most famous player driven one, Eve, where they supposedly have a full time economist overlooking it. But my point is... No MMO has a "real" economy so we have to put with a simulated one and to my uneducated eye is still an economy to us players, talking economic semantics will not change that fact as all games are simulated as are not "real" that is all really.

Just because EVE boasts areas of its economy that are simulated does not mean its economic system, as a whole, is simulated. As I stated, I have not played the game but based on what I've been told, and on what I've read since you posted this reply, it comes really close to a true economic system. The value of EVE's Interstellar Kredit is based on the wealth that exists within the game's economy, wealth generated and represented almost entirely by tradeable goods, both gathered and player-created.

 

This is the key of a true economic system: the currency must be representative of goods and sometimes services present within the system. The value of the currency must be representative of wealth.

 

As you noted this is not always the case in EVE, but the majority of the game's economic transactions function on this premise. In fact, one of the reasons the game employs an economist is to keep tabs on the effect generated currency has on the economy. In order to ensure it does not sway the game's economy to a simulated system, they seek to equalize the quantity of generated currency units with that of generated goods and items.

[Liokae]

I've been accused of undercutting when selling items. But the honest answer is that I just don't know how the Star Wars economy works.

 

In WoW, three hundred gold for an item is a pretty steep price. Over a thousand gold, amazingly high. Over ten thousand, ridiculous.

 

I once asked what a level 22 prototype medium armor piece would be worth. I was told prices ranging from 50,000 to 100.000 credits. I was blown away! That's quite a leap in the economics I'm used to.

 

Yes, but a gold piece in WoW is just a consolidated form of the base currency, which is copper. That single gold piece you're thinking of represents 10k of the base currency.

[Mistress_Ivi]

SWG had this problem all the time, the market was *truely* the players game, because it had 1 fundermental thing... an actual trader class with a real, complex crafting system.

 

One particular item on a server called Starsider, the "armour colour kits" ... my guild leader had to hand-craft them, he made 100's... you know what he did when someone bought them all? He kept making them, he made hundreds of millions each year from this.

Ironically, the people who tried to sell for more, because they hated the 'under pricing' doubled the orginal price, despite the fact our leader kept making and selling (on multiple planets in personal vendors, a total of 14)...

 

I found it amazing that he did this so freaking often - but he made a bucketload of money from it. So the trick is, if you hate someone over-pricing... or under pricing, in your case, suck it up... price for their price, hope someone buys yours and resells for more... because when you come back to sell more, you underprice them again at your price and they'll sell.

 

The trick is to profit 20% or more, from the costs of what it took to make the item... if it only costs 20k to make the aug kit, for example, you don't need to be charging 130k, 90k is still WAY over the minimal requirement to profit.