The Philosphical Gear Divide

[paul_preib]

You may have not read all of my post, it was rather long, I will be the first to admit.

 

Here is what I said about Camp # 1 (I divided it into two categories)

 

 

 

Based on your response that it is "rewarding," you would fall under both A and B. A, because you wear your gear like a "badge of honor" and B, because you "relish stomping recruits night in and night out."

 

Actually the progression is enjoyable in terms of the evolution of a character, much in the way "yay I leveled up time to put that new talent point somewhere and see if I get to train anything fun" can be.

 

I don't begrudge those who are not fond of it however attempting to simplify the motivations of those who you don't agree with is a task best not undertaken. To prefer a tier-gear progression-based methodology does not boil people down into two camps any more then those who prefer a non-gear based setup. Both could be broken into a dozen permutations and reasonings, all inherently right and wrong at the same time based upon the point of view it is analyzed from.

 

 

The reality is going back to the OP's original question regarding what the actual dev design philosophy here is, it falls to a return of "why do you ask questions to which you already know the answer?" (I apologize that I can't remember what movie I stole that from) .

 

The existing gear path belies the design intent, therefore the dev philosophy is already inherently stated by the existing method of pvp. It would be far more befitting to simply be out with it and say "I do not like this process and would prefer the devs design pvp in a different manner"

 

I would imagine the re-imagining of that statement into a question however is an oblique way of dodging the repetition that the topic has fallen to from both sides of the camp since essentially the game went live.

[Gadian]

YOU don't get to have your way because you want to segregate the population into US vs. THEM.

.

 

That isn't really what this thread is about at all. I was wondering out loud where Bioware stood on the issue, and this discussion has actually turned into a great little conversation about our differing philosophies.

 

One progresses for the prowess and profit of self (as well as others), but also potential gain of those held close.

 

if I had a sig line, this would be it!

[Varicite]

That isn't really what this thread is about at all. I was wondering out loud where Bioware stood on the issue, and this discussion has actually turned into a great little conversation about our differing philosophies.

 

 

 

if I had a sig line, this would be it!

 

He really does say a lot of sig-worthy ****.

 

Just sayin'.

[JayPres]

That isn't really what this thread is about at all. I was wondering out loud where Bioware stood on the issue, and this discussion has actually turned into a great little conversation about our differing philosophies.

 

The point I'm making is that it is clear where Bioware stands because they developed and deployed this very system we are discussing. That means their philosophy aligns clearly with gear progression and a substantive divide created (but bridged) over time.

[Gadian]

No, i read the whole post....

and based on your response, you still don't get it.

Assuming I "relish stomping recruits night in and night out" is wrong, and since you don't understand what I mean you assume that.

Obtaining new and better gear is a rewarding experience in-and-of itself.

 

I assumed that, only because you didn't expound. But now that you have, you would fall into subset A: "They actually derive fulfillment from the grind." In other words, you don't grind for gear so you can PVP on equal footing, you grind for gear, because you like getting gear. The grind for gear becomes your motivation. PVPing is what you do so you can get that gear.

 

Again, you may have missed if you just skimmed my original post. It was a little long.

[Gadian]

Actually the progression is enjoyable in terms of the evolution of a character, much in the way "yay I leveled up time to put that new talent point somewhere and see if I get to train anything fun" can be.

 

I don't begrudge those who are not fond of it however attempting to simplify the motivations of those who you don't agree with is a task best not undertaken. To prefer a tier-gear progression-based methodology does not boil people down into two camps any more then those who prefer a non-gear based setup. Both could be broken into a dozen permutations and reasonings, all inherently right and wrong at the same time based upon the point of view it is analyzed from.

 

 

The reality is going back to the OP's original question regarding what the actual dev design philosophy here is, it falls to a return of "why do you ask questions to which you already know the answer?" (I apologize that I can't remember what movie I stole that from) .

 

The existing gear path belies the design intent, therefore the dev philosophy is already inherently stated by the existing method of pvp. It would be far more befitting to simply be out with it and say "I do not like this process and would prefer the devs design pvp in a different manner"

 

I would imagine the re-imagining of that statement into a question however is an oblique way of dodging the repetition that the topic has fallen to from both sides of the camp since essentially the game went live.

 

As I just replied to the other guy, I accounted for your example by including those who derive fulfillment from the grind, as opposed to those to grind as a means to an end. As you aptly noted, for many, the gear is the reward. For me, gear is a means to an end; it is an invitation to PVP on equal footing.

 

Also, sure, as currently constituted, Bioware seems to fall into Camp # 1. But that could change. As someone mentioned, RWZ may be exactly what I am looking for.

[Jakoby]

The gear divide is simple. Those that have augmented expertise and those that don't. It's gotten sooo bad that those that don't will be those that never have as it is way to frustrating to play 50 PvP anymore... At best,"'those that don't" can hope to capture one node and sit on it. More often than not they won't be able to do even that vs. a skilled well equipped group. If you don't beleive me, have a group of DEV's do a 50 PvP match on any server in recruit gear. You'll get rolled, I don't care what your skill level is....

 

EXPERTISE has broke the game. We warned you in Beta Bioware, you ignored us...

Edited July 7, 2012 by Jakoby

[Gadian]

So name the game you're thinking of that had no gear progression whatsoever and was a major title.

 

This is kind of the point. There really isn't one. Which is why "go play Call of Duty or Halo" really doesn't make much sense. And gear progression doesn't have to be synonymous with stat progression.

[JayPres]

The gear divide is simple. Those that have augmented expertise and those that don't. It's gotten sooo bad that those that don't will be those that never have as it is way to frustrating to play 50 PvP anymore...

 

EXPERTISE has broke the game. We warned you in Beta Bioware, you ignored us...

 

I'm sorry but I can't imagine being able to speak for a defeatist population.

 

I'm going through it right now on my Jugg and will on my PT, and on my Sorc, already have on my Op. I'm going to get a mudhole stomped in my rear early on.

 

It's character development of a different variety. Suck it up and deal wtih it! We all benefit when the low level player grows into their gear. The maturation process is exquisite to watch and a joy to cultivate. That is what an MMO is all about my friend.

 

I just wonder why you hate playing with other people.

[Gadian]

He really does say a lot of sig-worthy ****.

 

Just sayin'.

 

I wonder what this dude sounds like in Mumble. Epic musings, no doubt.

[JayPres]

This is kind of the point. There really isn't one. Which is why "go play Call of Duty or Halo" really doesn't make much sense. And gear progression doesn't have to be synonymous with stat progression.

 

What does a game without gear progression look like to you?

[Tathais]

Why is there no camp for people who genuinely enjoy RPGs and customizing a character, tweaking its stats and specializations, basically "tooling around" w/ a character that they have invested time in so that it has become a somewhat meaningful avatar, instead of a stock, static pick-up-and-play character that you can find in any non-RPG?

 

Why can people from this particular camp not also enjoy fighting other players who have painstakingly tweaked and tooled their own characters to perform at the highest level?

 

Sometimes it's simply about applying class and mechanical knowledge to a dynamic environment.

 

I personally enjoy that MMO PvP takes into account your skill both on and off the field to achieve success. Players who are prepared AND skilled are the most rewarded.

 

You can accomplish this without grinding gear. There are other ways to tweak your character or to change things to suit your play style. Even if you got all your gear handed to you for free, you could still spend time tweaking your character with augments. I'd imagine you could go for damage/healing, defense, or a combination. Skills can also be tweaked to customize playstyle.

 

As it is, you're not painstakingly tweaking anything. You're spending more time on a video game and ending up with an item advantage.

 

There's a pretty big difference.

[Gadian]

 

I'm going through it right now on my Jugg and will on my PT, and on my Sorc, already have on my Op. I'm going to get a mudhole stomped in my rear early on.

 

It's character development of a different variety. Suck it up and deal wtih it! We all benefit when the low level player grows into their gear. The maturation process is exquisite to watch and a joy to cultivate. That is what an MMO is all about my friend.

 

I just wonder why you hate playing with other people.

 

Look, we have a fundamental disagreement on the term "character development," which I highlighted in my original post. For me, it means getting better, learning my abilities, including how my class-specific abilities apply to the various WZ objectives. It doesn't mean getting mowed down by a War Hero over and over. Your "development" is hindered while you are on the receiving end of roflstomps. And frankly, you really don't learn as much on the giving end either.

 

The maturation process is exquisite to watch and a joy to cultivate. .

 

Ha, are we still talking about PVP? Because I swear I just heard this line on the Discovery channel special about how a caterpillar transforms into a butterfly.

 

lol, I kid.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Gadian

[Gadian]

What does a game without gear progression look like to you?

 

You are putting words in my mouth. I am not advocating a "game without gear progression." But seeing as how you are using that term, what does a game without gear progression look like to you?

Edited July 7, 2012 by Gadian

[Brool]

What does a game without gear progression look like to you?

 

Like an xbox console game that is single player.

[Gadian]

Like an xbox console game that is single player.

 

And now we've come full circle.

[paul_preib]

The gear divide is simple. Those that have augmented expertise and those that don't. It's gotten sooo bad that those that don't will be those that never have as it is way to frustrating to play 50 PvP anymore... At best,"'those that don't" can hope to capture one node and sit on it. More often than not they won't be able to do even that vs. a skilled well equipped group. If you don't beleive me, have a group of DEV's do a 50 PvP match on any server in recruit gear. You'll get rolled, I don't care what your skill level is....

 

EXPERTISE has broke the game. We warned you in Beta Bioware, you ignored us...

 

Having taken what I guess you could call my main (as it's the 50 I play the most) through the process after 1.2 I'd say you are not going to be the best one on the battlefield, but you can still be effective at the outset. A bit of pre-planning does help (while I don't think everyone need necessarily do the 3500 ranked comm stashed for pre 50, the 2000 regular comms are not difficult and should be a given).

 

I'd also contend they did narrow the gap compared to what it was at the outset. My first 50 did not really participate in warzones while leveling, and thus stumbled in there in pve blues with a handful of 49 purple mods (and as a squishy class to boot), the ability to be contributory existed in both fashions given smart/proper play however it is much easier to be functional day 1 at 50 now then it was in the past.

 

Actually looking forward to when my 42 sage hits 50 to start the process yet again.

[Varicite]

I assumed that, only because you didn't expound. But now that you have, you would fall into subset A: "They actually derive fulfillment from the grind." In other words, you don't grind for gear so you can PVP on equal footing, you grind for gear, because you like getting gear.

 

I don't see it as "getting gear". I see it as "becoming stronger". A subtle, but important distinction that comes with attachment to one's character.

 

Our opponents are supposedly also attached to the characters they are playing, and assumed to have spent time "training" to also become stronger. That's why it feels so sweet when you beat them.

 

This is the way I view "gear" in PvP. The longer you practice the nuances of your class, the "stronger" you become, and while there is always the advancement of actual mechanical skill as you do this, it has become traditionally accepted in RPGs over the years that your character also advances in more tangible ways, such as "leveling up" and being able to wear stronger, more powerful equipment.

 

This is generally accepted to be "fun" on the way to endgame, and the PvP is also generally accepted to be fun. In my opinion, this has a lot to do w/ the fact that everyone is still "in training", and much like a sparring match in martial arts, it can be a lot of good fun and mistakes are less berated. At endgame, you begin to run into characters who are no longer "in training" and have reached the peak of their "physical perfection", and mistakes are more often capitalized on. When you lose, it hurts a bit more, because the stakes are higher (ie: you still get xp and credits from a loss as a lowbie, while you just get diminished comms and credits for a loss at endgame).

 

You've already mentioned the carrot on a stick. It's true that if the "RPG" part of the game were to simply be put on hold at endgame for PvPers, then a lot of players like myself who thoroughly enjoy competition and lovingly cultivating a powerful character over time would lose interest quickly.

 

You mentioned that people from Camp A should probably be PvE'ing, and the truth is that I did that for a good number of years in games like FFXI, etc, where there was a true grind and "raiding" took serious commitment. It was fun, but ultimately unfulfilling because I am an extremely competitive person, and the desire to fight against other players with my character in an ultimate confrontation of preparation, game knowledge, and skill execution proved too great.

 

DroidDreamer nailed it when he said that this game was made for people like me. That's why I'm playing it. : )

Edited July 7, 2012 by Varicite

[paul_preib]

At the end of the day I think the viability of a linear non-tiered variation cannot truly be argued until about 4-5 months after GW2's release when the new shiny wears off and the long term sustainability begins to express itself in terms of ongoing activity level.

 

I am neither saying it will or won't retain after that time period, only that true data cannot be extrapolated until that time.

 

 

If it works then it proves the thesis of those wanting non tiered progression, if it does not then it is a debate that will rage until at least one more AAA (especially a sub based one) attempts to put that methodology into practice.

[Gadian]

I don't see it as "getting gear". I see it as "becoming stronger". A subtle, but important distinction that comes with attachment to one's character.

 

 

I appreciate your distinction, but it is technically one in the same, as the only way to "become stronger" in PVP at max level is either through improved skill or getting better gear.

 

Also, there is also a distinction in what I am saying as well. I am not against character progression or development. I am just against the methods of progression that throw off the competitive balance.

 

 

You mentioned that people from Camp A should probably be PvE'ing, and the truth is that I did that for a good number of years in games like FFXI, etc, where there was a true grind and "raiding" took serious commitment. It was fun, but ultimately unfulfilling because I am an extremely competitive person, and the desire to fight against other players with my character in an ultimate confrontation of preparation, game knowledge, and skill execution proved too great.

 

I share those same qualities, as well as a love for the mechanics of RPG elements. Sounds like we have a good deal in common. I just wish gear didn't have to get in the way .

Edited July 7, 2012 by Gadian

[Varicite]

You can accomplish this without grinding gear. There are other ways to tweak your character or to change things to suit your play style. Even if you got all your gear handed to you for free, you could still spend time tweaking your character with augments. I'd imagine you could go for damage/healing, defense, or a combination. Skills can also be tweaked to customize playstyle.

 

As it is, you're not painstakingly tweaking anything. You're spending more time on a video game and ending up with an item advantage.

 

There's a pretty big difference.

 

I would counter that most players don't simply get the stock WH and stop. The "grind" is min-maxing that War Hero, augmenting it out, searching out the other sets for stats more suitable than the ones that came on your gear and working toward the goal of tweaking your War Hero gear to an optimal level.

 

I'm not really certain how you fail to see this as customization, and there is no item advantage at the War Hero level. Do you honestly believe that the time that one has spent cultivating a character should have no bearing in a RPG? Because I can't really think of any RPG that follows this philosophy.

 

The fact that it takes time does not cancel out that you are working toward customizing your character. You seem to think that I am against characters becoming stronger over time, but that is a pretty key element of RPGs.

 

Like I said earlier in this thread: RPGs are not strictly about balance, there only needs to be enough balance for everyone to compete at a "fair" level. And before you say that the level isn't fair, I've already mentioned that I think that the stats of the entry-level set should be higher, more in-line w/ the disparity between Battlemaster and War Hero.

[Gadian]

Allow me to chime in.

 

I would counter that most players don't simply get the stock WH and stop.

 

Assuming arguendo that this is true, it cuts against the argument that "if you remove the PVP gear grind, nobody will PVP."

 

The "grind" is min-maxing that War Hero, augmenting it out, searching out the other sets for stats more suitable than the ones that came on your gear and working toward the goal of tweaking your War Hero gear to an optimal level.

 

I am ok with this "grind," although I would lower the overall cost of the augment/mod system to make it more accessible. But this is fine by me. Like I said, I am not against progression, customization or personalization. On the contrary, these are some of the RPG elements I enjoy.

[sauerkraut]

In this world there are 2 kind of people, those who have it and those who don't. Those who don't, always complain, try to change the system the rules the laws whatever they feel prevents them from achieving their goals. SWTOR forum is a perfect example. If ( key word is IF) they get it they shut up and you don't hear about them anymore.

[Mirthadrond]

This is pretty much how I feel about it.

 

These people came to a gear-based MMO that has traditional WoW-style gear-based PvP, and seem to be genuinely upset that the PvP is gear-based.

 

Did you honestly not know what you were getting into?

 

Instead of trying to change the entire game around to suit your needs, why not play one of the countless games that already has what you're looking for? I am not saying this to be mean; I am genuinely curious.

 

If I want to play balanced, skill-based PvP, I play a fighting game like Street Fighter or Tekken or something. When I want to play a game where I cultivate a character's skills and stats over time into a godless killing machine, I log into a MMO.

 

MMOs aren't really strictly about fine-tuning balance; there just has to be enough balance for most players to be able to compete, imo.

 

I played WoW for a 14 day free trial, of which only 7 entertained me. I never made it beyond level 16 and never PvP'd in that game, if such a thing was even available to me at the time??

 

That being said; I've no experience with a gear grind of any kind. Most of the MMO's I've invested more than a few months in, had no pvp gear grind. If they did, I would have likely stopped playing them, or simply not pvp'd in them to begin with.

 

I love team sports. Love team competition. Love strategy and tactics.

No sport, professional or non-professional, allows one team to field better / different equipment than the other team. It is unsportsmanlike and the rules simply do not allow it. Period, end of story.

 

I don't see why TEAM BASED pvp, even in an MMORPG should be any different.

What is the point of a 'Rock / Paper / Scissors' mechanic, if ROCK cannot actually beat Scissors because he's wearing Kelvar Armor plating and Memory Foam and ROCK is just......... a Rock?

[Daiyukie]

I love how "camp 2" people are always so biased and leave out the ACTUAL reason people like a gear grind....

it's because it's rewarding. When you finally get that full set of WH gear it's a very rewarding experience.

 

For you. I'd rather have all the options arrayed in front of me and pick what I like. Worst case scenario, I DO have to grind for it, but for god's sake give me PvP items with the proper stats that I want. When I was grabbing Columi gear, the stats were perfect, I picked the piece I wanted and it had crit/surge. With PvP gear, it's like "get this piece for your class, then get this other piece and swap out 2/3 of the mods for it to replace the absolutely USELESS things that were in your original piece. Now do that for most of your slots."

 

I mean jesus, even disregarding the whole gear neutrality thing, I think a lot of grinding frustration comes from the fact that even once you get your full BM set after X amount of time, you're not NEARLY done yet because you either have to go to War Hero or get other BM sets 3 times over to get actual decent stats.

 

I like customizing my character, they've had customization in COD for years now too and it's still fairly balanced except for the one or two guns that are just better in every title. But surge is better than alacrity for DPS, so don't take a sniper rifle and related perks to a close-quarters map and expect the same ease as someone who brought an SMG and mobility/hipfire perks. However, the problem with the MMO PvP is that of the two guys who brought an SMG and mobility/hipfire perks, if one guy has been playing for 6 months and another guy has been playing for 2 months, the former has an extra perk so he can also have 120% more health than the latter guy. Sure it's an advantage that can be overcome, but... Customization is GOOD, gear gap is BAD.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Daiyukie