That is the point. Gear in MMO's affects your attributes. A quarterback's helmet/gloves does not. That is what makes the juxtaposition so compelling. Can you imagine if Peyton Manning's cleats had little rocket boosters to increase his scrambling? This comparison reveals the absurdity of giving stat/attribute bonuses to players in a competitive environment solely based on time logged. This is a paragraph in support of an analogy between sports equipment and competitive PVP gear rewards. If you play more, practice more, play with your guildmates/teammates more, then yes, you get better, more skilled even. To use your words, your increased skill is "the result of time invested in training and playing the game to get better." That is the point. The benefit of more play time/practice is more skill. Not a lighter helmet or a metal bat. To take your analogy further, you have Sorcs who train for healing/LOS, you have Guardians who train taunting and ball carrying, etc. Their ability to master their class is their reward for play time. And I contend that in a perfect game it would be their only reward. You miss the entire point of Camp # 2. In fact, you state the exact opposite. We would hope that players gain more skill with more play time. That skill would be the reward. The only reward. Just like in sports, as you so aptly demonstrated. Fair enough.

While I would prefer no gear gap (or at least a very minimal grind), I would be happier if the gap was a little smaller. While obviously not 100% correlated, I can usually tell how the game will go based on how many people on my team have less than 14k hp. And the silly thing is some of these guys could be awesome players, its just hard to tell when you can sneeze on them and they die.

Allow me to chime in. Assuming arguendo that this is true, it cuts against the argument that "if you remove the PVP gear grind, nobody will PVP." I am ok with this "grind," although I would lower the overall cost of the augment/mod system to make it more accessible. But this is fine by me. Like I said, I am not against progression, customization or personalization. On the contrary, these are some of the RPG elements I enjoy.

I appreciate your distinction, but it is technically one in the same, as the only way to "become stronger" in PVP at max level is either through improved skill or getting better gear. Also, there is also a distinction in what I am saying as well. I am not against character progression or development. I am just against the methods of progression that throw off the competitive balance. I share those same qualities, as well as a love for the mechanics of RPG elements. Sounds like we have a good deal in common. I just wish gear didn't have to get in the way .

And now we've come full circle.

You are putting words in my mouth. I am not advocating a "game without gear progression." But seeing as how you are using that term, what does a game without gear progression look like to you?

Look, we have a fundamental disagreement on the term "character development," which I highlighted in my original post. For me, it means getting better, learning my abilities, including how my class-specific abilities apply to the various WZ objectives. It doesn't mean getting mowed down by a War Hero over and over. Your "development" is hindered while you are on the receiving end of roflstomps. And frankly, you really don't learn as much on the giving end either. Ha, are we still talking about PVP? Because I swear I just heard this line on the Discovery channel special about how a caterpillar transforms into a butterfly. lol, I kid.

I wonder what this dude sounds like in Mumble. Epic musings, no doubt.

This is kind of the point. There really isn't one. Which is why "go play Call of Duty or Halo" really doesn't make much sense. And gear progression doesn't have to be synonymous with stat progression.

As I just replied to the other guy, I accounted for your example by including those who derive fulfillment from the grind, as opposed to those to grind as a means to an end. As you aptly noted, for many, the gear is the reward. For me, gear is a means to an end; it is an invitation to PVP on equal footing. Also, sure, as currently constituted, Bioware seems to fall into Camp # 1. But that could change. As someone mentioned, RWZ may be exactly what I am looking for.

I assumed that, only because you didn't expound. But now that you have, you would fall into subset A: "They actually derive fulfillment from the grind." In other words, you don't grind for gear so you can PVP on equal footing, you grind for gear, because you like getting gear. The grind for gear becomes your motivation. PVPing is what you do so you can get that gear. Again, you may have missed if you just skimmed my original post. It was a little long.

That isn't really what this thread is about at all. I was wondering out loud where Bioware stood on the issue, and this discussion has actually turned into a great little conversation about our differing philosophies. if I had a sig line, this would be it!

If this was confusing, I apologize. I said, I don't enjoy the PVP gear grind (emphasis on grind), not that I don't enjoy PVP.

You may have not read all of my post, it was rather long, I will be the first to admit. Here is what I said about Camp # 1 (I divided it into two categories) Based on your response that it is "rewarding," you would fall under both A and B. A, because you wear your gear like a "badge of honor" and B, because you "relish stomping recruits night in and night out."

I know we have established our disagreement over this issue, but I wanted to reiterate it . I ultimately made it to full BM prior to WH being released, so I was at the gear pinnacle for a bit. You can definitely notice skill disparity. It can be as obvious as failure to use cooldowns correctly (a glaring weakness of many players), failing to assist and/or attack the proper target, or as subtle as simple positioning/line-of-sight. Not to mention so many people fail at the tactics of a WZ. For example, as a healer, I can often blow cooldowns to stay alive for 15-30 seconds, even with 3-4 people on me, if I time my CC and defensive cooldowns and LOS correctly. Now in Civil War, after we have lost a node, I will often stay and "fight" against 4 guys. I am no threat. Yet what do the 4 guys there do? They tunnel me. They will typically all stay until I am dead. Yet during that time, my team enjoyed a 7 on 4 advantage over the other 2 nodes, and we will typically be able to capture one. In reality, maybe 2 people should stay behind to finish me off/make sure I don't cap, while the rest go support their other nodes. I can't tell you how many good "fighters" don't understand (or simply ignore) the WZ mechanics/strats. Also, this game has been out for 6 months. The vast majority of people still have not mastered their class (even though they think they have). And frankly, they haven't really had to if they have been Quing up in full WH augmented gear with three of their similarly geared friends. They simply roll face all day long and never develop the little things that make you great. Even WOW players, who have had 7 years, haven't all mastered their classes as to render gear gaps necessary. Maybe the top arena teams (2700+) have, but there is still plenty of room for skill to make up the difference.