That is the point. Gear in MMO's affects your attributes. A quarterback's helmet/gloves does not. That is what makes the juxtaposition so compelling. Can you imagine if Peyton Manning's cleats had little rocket boosters to increase his scrambling? This comparison reveals the absurdity of giving stat/attribute bonuses to players in a competitive environment solely based on time logged. This is a paragraph in support of an analogy between sports equipment and competitive PVP gear rewards. If you play more, practice more, play with your guildmates/teammates more, then yes, you get better, more skilled even. To use your words, your increased skill is "the result of time invested in training and playing the game to get better." That is the point. The benefit of more play time/practice is more skill. Not a lighter helmet or a metal bat. To take your analogy further, you have Sorcs who train for healing/LOS, you have Guardians who train taunting and ball carrying, etc. Their ability to master their class is their reward for play time. And I contend that in a perfect game it would be their only reward. You miss the entire point of Camp # 2. In fact, you state the exact opposite. We would hope that players gain more skill with more play time. That skill would be the reward. The only reward. Just like in sports, as you so aptly demonstrated. Fair enough.

While I would prefer no gear gap (or at least a very minimal grind), I would be happier if the gap was a little smaller. While obviously not 100% correlated, I can usually tell how the game will go based on how many people on my team have less than 14k hp. And the silly thing is some of these guys could be awesome players, its just hard to tell when you can sneeze on them and they die.

Allow me to chime in. Assuming arguendo that this is true, it cuts against the argument that "if you remove the PVP gear grind, nobody will PVP." I am ok with this "grind," although I would lower the overall cost of the augment/mod system to make it more accessible. But this is fine by me. Like I said, I am not against progression, customization or personalization. On the contrary, these are some of the RPG elements I enjoy.

I appreciate your distinction, but it is technically one in the same, as the only way to "become stronger" in PVP at max level is either through improved skill or getting better gear. Also, there is also a distinction in what I am saying as well. I am not against character progression or development. I am just against the methods of progression that throw off the competitive balance. I share those same qualities, as well as a love for the mechanics of RPG elements. Sounds like we have a good deal in common. I just wish gear didn't have to get in the way .

And now we've come full circle.

You are putting words in my mouth. I am not advocating a "game without gear progression." But seeing as how you are using that term, what does a game without gear progression look like to you?

Look, we have a fundamental disagreement on the term "character development," which I highlighted in my original post. For me, it means getting better, learning my abilities, including how my class-specific abilities apply to the various WZ objectives. It doesn't mean getting mowed down by a War Hero over and over. Your "development" is hindered while you are on the receiving end of roflstomps. And frankly, you really don't learn as much on the giving end either. Ha, are we still talking about PVP? Because I swear I just heard this line on the Discovery channel special about how a caterpillar transforms into a butterfly. lol, I kid.

I wonder what this dude sounds like in Mumble. Epic musings, no doubt.

This is kind of the point. There really isn't one. Which is why "go play Call of Duty or Halo" really doesn't make much sense. And gear progression doesn't have to be synonymous with stat progression.

As I just replied to the other guy, I accounted for your example by including those who derive fulfillment from the grind, as opposed to those to grind as a means to an end. As you aptly noted, for many, the gear is the reward. For me, gear is a means to an end; it is an invitation to PVP on equal footing. Also, sure, as currently constituted, Bioware seems to fall into Camp # 1. But that could change. As someone mentioned, RWZ may be exactly what I am looking for.

I assumed that, only because you didn't expound. But now that you have, you would fall into subset A: "They actually derive fulfillment from the grind." In other words, you don't grind for gear so you can PVP on equal footing, you grind for gear, because you like getting gear. The grind for gear becomes your motivation. PVPing is what you do so you can get that gear. Again, you may have missed if you just skimmed my original post. It was a little long.

That isn't really what this thread is about at all. I was wondering out loud where Bioware stood on the issue, and this discussion has actually turned into a great little conversation about our differing philosophies. if I had a sig line, this would be it!

If this was confusing, I apologize. I said, I don't enjoy the PVP gear grind (emphasis on grind), not that I don't enjoy PVP.

You may have not read all of my post, it was rather long, I will be the first to admit. Here is what I said about Camp # 1 (I divided it into two categories) Based on your response that it is "rewarding," you would fall under both A and B. A, because you wear your gear like a "badge of honor" and B, because you "relish stomping recruits night in and night out."

I know we have established our disagreement over this issue, but I wanted to reiterate it . I ultimately made it to full BM prior to WH being released, so I was at the gear pinnacle for a bit. You can definitely notice skill disparity. It can be as obvious as failure to use cooldowns correctly (a glaring weakness of many players), failing to assist and/or attack the proper target, or as subtle as simple positioning/line-of-sight. Not to mention so many people fail at the tactics of a WZ. For example, as a healer, I can often blow cooldowns to stay alive for 15-30 seconds, even with 3-4 people on me, if I time my CC and defensive cooldowns and LOS correctly. Now in Civil War, after we have lost a node, I will often stay and "fight" against 4 guys. I am no threat. Yet what do the 4 guys there do? They tunnel me. They will typically all stay until I am dead. Yet during that time, my team enjoyed a 7 on 4 advantage over the other 2 nodes, and we will typically be able to capture one. In reality, maybe 2 people should stay behind to finish me off/make sure I don't cap, while the rest go support their other nodes. I can't tell you how many good "fighters" don't understand (or simply ignore) the WZ mechanics/strats. Also, this game has been out for 6 months. The vast majority of people still have not mastered their class (even though they think they have). And frankly, they haven't really had to if they have been Quing up in full WH augmented gear with three of their similarly geared friends. They simply roll face all day long and never develop the little things that make you great. Even WOW players, who have had 7 years, haven't all mastered their classes as to render gear gaps necessary. Maybe the top arena teams (2700+) have, but there is still plenty of room for skill to make up the difference.

If I can chime in I would say that imho resilience/expertise is the best thing to ever happen to MMO PVP. Can't say how glad I am that WOW introduced PVP gear and SWTOR followed suit. Definitely was not fun getting 3-shot in Vanilla WoW by dudes who literally turned with their keyboard and clicked with their mouse who had cleared 40-man raid content (Forty!) and thus were in full epics, pre-resilience.

I absolutely agree that more time should equal more skill. It is the time-honored concept of practice (right, Allen Iverson?). My contention is that increased skill/tactics/teamwork should be the only benefit of increased play time. Who am I to begrudge you for honing your skills? Gear rewards just seem to detract from that. As an aside, I like the customization and personalization of my character. I spent time deciding on a name, my legacy, even my hairstyle. And I customize my gear. And I have no problem with a grind, per se. I just don't want the grind to provide a competitive advantage. Minor perks, titles, mounts and cosmetics, sure. Absolutely. In other words, I am not advocating a complete rehaul of the game as we know it. I am just advocating a slight tweak in the way they reward PVP gear. Seems like it is easier to achieve that than to cross my fingers that Guildwars 2 is a polished and worthy game. But, I think this post highlights the philosophical divide between the two camps. Agree to disagree I suppose.

I appreciate your curiosity. I touched on this in an earlier reply, and I speak for myself here (although another poster touched on this as well), Tekken and Street Fighter are completely different games. As are Call of Duty and Halo. And to take it a step further, so is Madden 2013. I mean, if this game was essentially a mirror of Street Fighter, except that people who logged more play time were able to get a special outfit for Ken which would let his hadouken do double damage, or give him double the hit points, then sure, I would take your advice and play the original Street Fighter. But this game is different. I will even use your language, because I like it. There is a large contingent of people who like "RPG Elements," and especially enjoy them as applied to PVP (as opposed to a "shooter" game like CoD or a fighting game like Tekken). I know I do. If there was a compelling game with RPG elements that was a polished as SWTOR or WOW, minus the gear grind, then yes, I would play that and leave your forums alone . (I don't think Guildwars 2 is that game). But there isn't, so alas, here I am.

I appreciate the response. Fair enough, if you don't think skill provides enough of a gap. However, I would point out that one of the more compelling reasons to remove gear grinding is for alts (which this game seems to encourage) and re-rolls. Not every fresh 50 is a "noob." Perhaps they rerolled on the other faction. Perhaps they changed classes.

Thanks for the post. I think the issue for most of us in Camp # 2 is that this game, and WOW before it, is not like an FPS game. Sure, both involve skill, coordination and reflexes in a dynamic environment, but that is as far as the comparison goes. The gameplay is completely different. And that is the point. If I want to go shoot stuff, sure, I can play Halo. But if I want to play in a war-game environment with actual objectives and a plethora of abilities at my disposal, along with 15 other players with various unique abilities of their own, with all of the personalization and progression I have put into my character, then I am stuck with an MMO. Note that I mentioned that personalization and progression are good things - just not at the expense of competition. That is the fundamental point you are missing. The PVP gameplay experience is completely different between an FPS game and an MMO-type game. Members of Camp # 2 enjoy the PVP gameplay experience of an MMO-type game, so saying "if I want gear to be normalized, I would play Call of Duty really doesn't make much sense." Guildwars 2 would be a much better suggestion, however from what I have seen that game lacks the polish of this one. Thus your analogy falls flat. For your analogy to make sense, certain football players, perhaps those who had played in the league for more than 4 years, would have access to better, stronger, lighter pads and helmets, giving them a distinct competitive advantage. And others wouldn't. And if Cam Newton complained, you would tell him to go play Rugby. See the folly? Once you understand the differences between the gameplay, you gain a greater insight into Camp # 2. Again, I don't want this to be another debate between Camps 1&2, which is what many gear threads devolve to, I am just trying to help you guys see where we are coming from.

Again, I don't want to rehash the debate, but I would point out that you should replace the word "skill" with "time," unless you sincerely believe that the preparation you put in (farming gear and putting mods in it) is a legitimate skill, in which case more power to you.

Thank you for your thoughts. You basically summed up Camp #1. I won't waste time rehashing the typical rebuttals to your position. I was simply intrigued by something you said - "Which is why there HAS to be gear involved so that there is some type of gap." Do other members of Camp #1 players feel this way? Granted, this game isn't the most complex, but between the objectives, spacing and understanding of the abilities, strengths and weaknesses of your class (and your opponents') I think there is plenty of room for skill to be the deciding factor (if not at the individual level, then at the team level). So while I disagree with your premise, your post provides some insight into why members of Camp #1 prefer the gear grind. However, I contend that if you weren't bolstered (or hampered) by gear, you may think otherwise.

I would like to see where Bioware stands on the great Philosophical Gear Divide. I refer to the way PVP gear is apportioned and how PVP gear affects gameplay. It seems we currently have two camps whose philosophical divide will probably never be breached: Camp #1: Those who think that the gear grind (and subsequent gear advantage) is a good thing and, while perhaps it is not necessarily fun (although some think it is), it is a very compelling reason (and maybe the only reason) to PVP. Grinding is "earning" your gear. AND Camp #2: Those who think that the gear grind ruins the game, that it essentially forces people to spend time doing something they don't enjoy, just so they achieve competitive equality. It is not a compelling reason to PVP. The fun of PVP is the ultimate reason to PVP, and the gear grind is a necessary evil in order to have fun. A means to an end, if you will. We can further break down Camp #1 into two subcategories: A) The "True MMOer": These are the people who crave the PVP grind. If there is no grind, then this game is just "Halo, CoD, (fill in the FPS blank here)." They actually derive fulfillment from the grind. The grind is not a means to an end, it is literally the very reason they pay their $15/month and the reason they continue to log on hour after hour. These tend to be your PVErs, which is where they derive their need for "progression," but in all fairness this is not always the case. They also view their gear as a badge of honor. They put in the hours, so should everybody else. They decry the folks in philosophical camp 2 as "lazy, entitled, unwilling to 'work' and 'earn' their way." If the True MMOer had to grind away his life to get his gear, so should you. OR B) The "Training Wheels Guy": Everybody knows who this guy is. Without overly generalizing, this is the high-school/college/Occupy Wall Street kid with an oversized play schedule and an even more oversized ego. This is War Hero who relishes roflstomping recruits night in and night out. He may be an awful player masked by an overabundance of gear, however more often he is a decent player who is overrated based on the larger margin of error afforded by his gear. There is a strong correlation between the "best PVPer on the server thread" and the "best geared PVPer on the server." The Training Wheels Gear derives his advantage and sense of identity from his gear advantage. He rails against gear equalization the same way Apple aggressively defends its patents - it is the source of their competitive advantage. Without the training wheels, he feels he would be rightly relegated to mediocrity. Full disclosure: I am a firm apologist for camp #2. To the True MMOer, go run operations, and leave PVP to the players who neither want nor need a gear grind. Maybe that was harsh, I suppose we can compromise and you can get shiny new cosmetic gear (with no measurable advantage over the competition) for your troubles. To the Training Wheels Guy, honestly, if you relinquish your gear advantage, you may just get better, as you won't need to rely on your gear crutch to cruise to wins. As Michael Jordan aged, he was no longer able to physically dominate his opponents, however he developed a lethal post-up skill-set to compensate, and he still won his titles. True PVP, is about the competition. Not the grind. It is about skill and teamwork. Not augments and purples. It is about fun. Not chasing a carrot on a stick. But I digress. I won't convince either the True MMOer or the Training Wheels Guy of the ignorance and foolishness of their position. And for those in Camp #2 I am preaching to the choir. What interests me is which side do the Devs take in this philosophical divide?

(More) reasons I quit the game: Upcoming patch fails: "Free" server transfers are not free if you have to resub in order to transfer, with the alternative being that you get left behind in a dead server. Their new legacy perk system also costs like 100k per perk that you want to unlock. What a joke. Still no dual spec. A legacy perk that costs half a million credits and gives you the ability to respec once every hour (or whatever the cooldown is) is not dual spec. Better than what they have now, but still pathetic. Groupfinder is useless if there is nobody to play with, and still useless if you have no desire to do flashpoints for columi gear. No patch notes mention fixing/optimizing the engine, which is extremely important. No mention of a timeline for rated PvP, so I guess it's being pushed back even further. In order to revive my interest, they will need to make significant progress in the following areas: Serious engine optimization Aggressive population concentration PvP overhaul a. Severely reduced grind for top-tier gear b. Harsh nerf to top-tier gear to make it only slightly better than what is easily obtainable by casual players, to the point where the advantage is so minute as to be nearly non-existent. (therefore, mostly for style) c. Better class balance d. Preservation of groups, Ops queuing, and group leader queues overriding individual queues e. Enough population for near instant queues f. Worthwhile world pvp, especially while leveling g. Split 10-49 bracket into 10-29 and 30-49 (shouldn't be a problem with population fixes) UI mods Legacy system that doesn't cost credits to progress Operations overhaul a. Much, much faster wipe recovery b. Fixes to stupid looting issues with master looter and chests c. Mechanics that don't rely on short enrage fuses for difficulty Substantial reduction in the amount of time necessary to complete daily/weekly quests A cosmetic system that lets you take set bonuses from anything and get augments on anything, so that you can actually look how you want. Also, light/med/heavy versions (or just one adaptable version) of social gear. Trade skills that don't suck, and that match biochem in pvp effectiveness.

The idea of super-servers as discussed in the link below is a good one. Let's hope Bioware can pull this off. If this is indeed the case, then that would go a long way to reactivating many of us who have quit due to the low pops. Some additional details/communication would also be nice. http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/05/23/the-old-republics-daniel-erickson-talks-legacy-system-update-group-finder-and-adaptive-gear/