PvP isnt fun, not due to combat but due to design.

[Nemmar]

(Disclaimer: i tried making a nice constructive post, but it seems that its just beeing used to try and launch personal attacks to me, so i recommend skipping to the quote for a quick insight on the issue.)

 

Hey.

 

So, i played this game since the start and i gotta say PvP was a fun experience. Yeah sorcs were OP, but it was still fun. The 10-49 tier was fun and the 50 tier was fun. Gear played a role but you could still get to lvl 50 join a WZ and have a good time.

 

Nowadays, i see this game making the same mistake WoW did. Theres 3 tiers of gear wich take relative effort to get. I got an alt to lvl 50 and i went on to PvP. Everyone can guess what happens. Even with the recruit gear you get destroyed in 2-3 seconds. To get full batllemaster you have to grind WZ's for about 2 weeks at least, but you're a liability so you're gimping your team cause of your gear, wich will lead to defeats and a longer time to get a gear set.

 

So, lets get this straight. If i am to have a chance in PvP, i need to be cannon fodder for 2 weeks until i can have a chance to compete. This is in no way any fun. My answer? No, i wont. I'm not gonna pay a monthly fee to spend weeks not having fun and basically beeing fodder for other players. Its ridiculous. I have no chance whatsoever against any battlemaster or war hero geared player. Skill means absolutely nothing.

 

WoW did the exact same mistake. PvP does not welcome new players and in fact, it keeps them out.

My question is: Why this design? Does this sound like good design? You're keeping hardcore PvP'rs at the top of the chain happy, but the PvP will keep dieing out with people leaving and no one joining.

 

For me it just slashes the game in half. PvP is off limits, now PvE until you get tired of that and leave. Is it really necessary to put up such barriers to new players? Is PvP not about skill and fun? Well, at the moment it isnt, and its a shame cause the combat is really fun.

 

Possible solutions: Have only 1 PVP gear set, or have a PvP queue for fresh 50's and another for hardcores and maybe adjust the rewards accordingly (much like a difficulty level).

edit: Another good sugestion is having queus based on your valor rank.

 

edit: i feel that this clarificantion post i made deserver to be here. It nails what im saying in a nutshell.

 

This is NOT about how easy or hard gear is to get, its about the difference the gear does.

This is that playing PVP at recruit gear is NOT fun. Therefore, the grind after that is nothing but a sacrifice of your time and money. There is no point to it. Its a huge barrier that says : You cant PvP on this game.

 

I want fair matches. I want to have fun.

 

If my alt is on recruit gear, why is he fighting war heroes? It does not make sense. Its like pitting a lvl 10 vs a lvl25 in PvP (without the lvl49 stat boost).

 

If we all get boosted to lvl 49 stats in the 10-49 bracket, why is it that at lvl 50 things are so different?

Edited June 25, 2012 by Nemmar

[BambulaGTS]

I do not know why you are saying you are playing from the start.

 

Cause I'm playing from the early access and in that times to get a single BM piece you need to farm wzs to 60 valor rank and get absolutely random bags - before 60 valor champ ones, than BM ones.

 

THIS WAS HARD.

 

Not today's full BM in a 5 days of not so "hardcore" playing.

 

How it could be difficult for new players?

Edited June 24, 2012 by BambulaGTS

[Nemmar]

Like i said on my post. With your old gear you could still be competitive in PvP.

 

The issue is not that its hard, the issue is it isnt fun.

Why should i pay for this game and not have fun and basically just blindly grind WZ's getting killed in 2 seconds for 2 weeks. I dunno about you, but i can think of better ways to spend my money and my time.

[Yeochins]

Like i said on my post. With your old gear you could still be competitive in PvP.

 

The issue is not that its hard, the issue is it isnt fun.

Why should i pay for this game and not have fun and basically just blindly grind WZ's getting killed in 2 seconds for 2 weeks. I dunno about you, but i can think of better ways to spend my money and my time.

 

No... Not true. If you were here back in January you wouldn't have ever posted this nonsense.

 

If you played back in January/February you'd be sitting in greens/blues/oranges with NO EXPERTISE for well over a month while you RNG your way to a full champion set. Some get it in a week. Some take 2 months. You wouldn't be talking when you RNG'ed 9 pairs of boots and none of the stuff you needed.

 

The difference between Champion/Battlemaster versus the fresh 50's? Astronomical.You died in the same amount of time as a fresh 50 in recruit gear now. Fun factor? well it was much worse than you have it now.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Yeochins

[Nemmar]

No... Not true. If you were here back in January you wouldn't have ever posted this nonsense.

 

If you played back in January/February you'd be sitting in greens/blues/oranges with NO EXPERTISE for well over a month while you RNG your way to a full champion set. Some get it in a week. Some take 2 months. You wouldn't be talking when you RNG'ed 9 pairs of boots and none of the stuff you needed.

 

The difference between Champion/Battlemaster versus the fresh 50's? Astronomical.You died in the same amount of time as a fresh 50 in recruit gear now. Fun factor? well it was much worse than you have it now.

 

This is NOT about how easy or hard gear is to get, its about the difference the gear does.

This is that playing PVP at recruit gear is NOT fun. Therefore, the grind after that is nothing but a sacrifice of your time and money. There is no point to it. Its a huge barrier that says : You cant PvP on this game.

 

I want fair matches. I want to have fun.

 

If my alt is on recruit gear, why is he fighting war heroes? It does not make sense. Its like pitting a lvl 10 vs a lvl25 in PvP (without the lvl49 stat boost).

 

If we all get boosted to lvl 49 stats in the 10-49 bracket, why is it that at lvl 50 things are so different?

Edited June 24, 2012 by Nemmar

[Daiyukie]

I agree with the title, but it's not the gear that's the problem, it's the Warzone design that's the problem.

 

See This thread and This thread to read some good ideas and contribute your own!

[Nemmar]

No, the problem isnt the warzone design. The problem is that theres no point in playing in the first place. Doesnt matter what the WZ design is after that because no one will care about playing it when the game design tells you: Get out of here if you're expecting a good time and a fair match. Edited June 24, 2012 by Nemmar

[Lymain]

The ability to augment Recruit and BM gear (while keeping the set bonuses) in 1.3 is going to make the gear gap less significant, and the removal of clicky relics and offensive adrenals (as well as a few other 1.3 changes) will increase time-to-kill. Edited June 24, 2012 by Lymain

[niiall]

i think you can still be usefull to your team even with crap gear, on novare coast for example you could be teh person to defend west, call incs early and do your best to slow down any attackers.

 

you will get defense medals and still be helping the team.

 

i like the way it is, because the reward is there for people who do tough it out

[Spuck]

I dont see why they couldnt do expertise ranks or valor ranks or something to that effect instead. The level 50 bracket is just as bad as it was when it was 10-50 only bracket... sometimes.

[Nemmar]

The ability to augment Recruit and BM gear (and keep the set bonuses) in 1.3 is going to make the gear gap less significant, and the removal of clicky relics and offensive adrenals (as well as a few other 1.3 changes) will increase time-to-kill.

 

The augmentation wont really make a difference since everyone can do it.

 

The loss of on-use relics and adrenals will help, but i doubt its gonna be enough.

[Cambogan]

Disagree with OP.

 

I hit 50 on my assault vanguard two weeks ago today. Two days later my wife had our first baby, so I have hardly been having extended play sessions. Nonetheless, I've got full eliminator BM armour and just need the earpiece, second implant , relics and generator.

 

In that time, the sense of progression has been awesome. At first, I was getting killed in 3 gcd in recruit gear. Every piece of BM gear felt like it made a difference. Now, I'm winning most 1v1 and having heaps of fun. I look forward to getting the WH gear and melting face.

 

MMOs are about progression IMHO. That's why we play them. If you want a game with pure balanced classes that relies purely on skill, go and play Team Fortess 2.

[Talsyrius]

Not to mention that a lot of the well geared players will be doing ranked war zones instead, leaving more room for the under geared to perform in the normal war zones.

[Nemmar]

Not to mention that a lot of the well geared players will be doing ranked war zones instead, leaving more room for the under geared to perform in the normal war zones.

 

That indeed creates a bit of what im asking for. The only problem with it is it wont stop war heroes from joining to roflstomp everyone. Doesnt fix the issues.

[Lymain]

The augmentation wont really make a difference since everyone can do it.

 

Players with War Hero gear could augment their armor in 1.2, giving them access to (for example) an extra 900 HP and 60 power. Battlemaster armor could also be augmented, but it meant giving up set bonuses. Obviously, Recruit gear could not be augmented at all. Patch 1.3 is taking that 900 HP + 60 Power advantage War Hero-geared players had and giving it to everyone.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Lymain

[Nemmar]

That indeed creates a bit of what im asking for. The only problem with it is it wont stop war heroes from joining to roflstomp everyone. Doesnt fix the issues.

 

Disagree with OP.

 

I hit 50 on my assault vanguard two weeks ago today. Two days later my wife had our first baby, so I have hardly been having extended play sessions. Nonetheless, I've got full eliminator BM armour and just need the earpiece, second implant , relics and generator.

 

In that time, the sense of progression has been awesome. At first, I was getting killed in 3 gcd in recruit gear. Every piece of BM gear felt like it made a difference. Now, I'm winning most 1v1 and having heaps of fun. I look forward to getting the WH gear and melting face.

 

MMOs are about progression IMHO. That's why we play them. If you want a game with pure balanced classes that relies purely on skill, go and play Team Fortess 2.

 

Or... Guild Wars 2? That doesnt mean i dont want ToR to be more fun than it is, instead of adhering to old and broken WoW conventions.

[Nemmar]

Players with War Hero gear could augment their armor in 1.2, giving them access to (for example) an extra 900 HP and 60 power. Battlemaster armor could also be augmented, but it meant giving up set bonuses. Obviously, Recruit gear could not be augmented at all. Patch 1.3 is taking that 900 HP + 60 Power advantage War Hero-geared players had and giving it to everyone.

 

I wasnt aware of that. It helps you're right.

[Mirthadrond]

I tend to agree with the OP on this one.

 

It's isn't about 'how hard' it is, or how long it takes, to get BM gear. The point is; that time can be spent doing something else that is MORE FUN than getting face rolled for 4 - 14 days. (pending your luck in PUGs or guild association )

 

Augmented gear FAVORS the WH and BM gear players. It doesn't favor recruit's. You will STILL be face stomped if you are wearing recruit gear. Augmented or not.

 

Even with pre-mades: Recruit geared players are STILL a liability to their team. Teammates ONLY tolerate them because they 'have too'. Do you really expect people to believe that pre-mades WANT recruit geared players on their team? No they do not. They want that team member GEARED UP.

 

With the addition of augmented gear; ranked war zones, and future level cap increases and likely MORE / better PVP gear.. the gap between the geared and under-geared will continue to grow to the point where no new players are willing to put up with the grind.

This will leave PVP stagnant and boring, as you fight the exact same people, in the same 4 war zones, over and over again.

 

IF PVP is to be saved, survive and thrive, they (Bioware) needs to innovate.

 

It is too bad the 'hard core' crowd would feel butthurt and offended by any potential changes to the gearing system, but quite frankly, that is the direction bioware needs to go.

[Kehtal]

" To get full batllemaster you have to grind WZ's for about 2 weeks at least"

 

 

Uh, try two days.

[Brool]

Like i said on my post. With your old gear you could still be competitive in PvP.

 

The issue is not that its hard, the issue is it isnt fun.

Why should i pay for this game and not have fun and basically just blindly grind WZ's getting killed in 2 seconds for 2 weeks. I dunno about you, but i can think of better ways to spend my money and my time.

 

maybe you should unsub and look for a game that is suit's you more.

 

BTW I didint mind the BM grind on any of my toons. Pre 1.2 or post 1.2

[Daiyukie]

" To get full batllemaster you have to grind WZ's for about 2 weeks at least"

 

 

Uh, try two days.

 

This.

[NathanielStarr]

maybe you should unsub and look for a game that is suit's you more.

 

BTW I didint mind the BM grind on any of my toons. Pre 1.2 or post 1.2

 

Yes, like everyone else.

[Gidoru]

Solution. Get gear, then the game will be fun.

 

Getting Battlemaster gear is a VERY easy to get. War Hero gear for the most part is a minor upgrade with some exceptions and even less of one next patch when you can get 2 PvP relics with surge.

 

You say this thread isnt about how hard it is to get gear but the fact you need gear to begin with. Well guess what, this is a MMO, it is a gear based game. Furthermore, if it is easy to get the gear in the first place, what is the big deal?

 

It takes maybe a week to get full Battlemasters gear with casual play.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Gidoru

[Kyemin]

I have to reply to this.

First of all, you aren't here from the start. In the start, there were level 50 vs level 10 versus etc, etc, etc...

There were no 50s warzones. All died in the same batllegroung.

Back then, getting champion gear would make you sweat for a long time and count with a lot of chance, since there wasn't a way for you to buy the piece that was missing. It was random, in a bag, when you got lucky. If very lucky, you would find what you needed.

Second, you complain for grinding for battlemaster in 2 weeks?

Well... what should I say, that had to wait about 4 months to get full battlemaster.

But now? Everyone is battlemaste. Everyone.

So, the warhero gear came out.

I made my math. grinding ranked commendations would take at least 2 months go get the full set.

Guess what?

A few weeks later everyone started to get 300 ranked in the weekly while I had all that time getting only 100 in the weekly (or should I say, 99?)

So the two months droped a lot and now I have a full warhero char.

Want to know what I see around me?!

People that started 2 weeks ago are already having their 2, 3 warhero pieces.

Want to know what will happen with ranked warzones?

There will be people full war hero in a couple of weeks (days if the push hard).

So... What are you complaing about?!

Effort?!

Sorry pal, you are on the wrong side of the coin. If you were in my shoes, war hero shoes, after months playing thousands of warzones, you would dropped the game, pull all your hairs out and yes, you would have absolutly no problem grinding for gear, since you'd have it all already, but all that work would seem so stupid, so many wasted time, for now people that are on your shoes complain about 2 weeks being cannon fodder.

Only wish what you said was true... only wish...

[vimm]

I do not know why you are saying you are playing from the start.

 

Cause I'm playing from the early access and in that times to get a single BM piece you need to farm wzs to 60 valor rank and get absolutely random bags - before 60 valor champ ones, than BM ones.

 

THIS WAS HARD.

 

Not today's full BM in a 5 days of not so "hardcore" playing.

 

How it could be difficult for new players?

Yes, it's much easier and faster now; people will always find reasons to complain though.