The REAL Reason Why Mara/Sents are Overtuned

[InariOkami]

Cloak of Pain/Rebuke.

 

Now, I'm not one of those peoples that cries "OP NERF TAKE AWAY ALL THIER SKILLZ PLOX" every time I see a marauder/sentinel. In fact, 90% of the time a marauders comes up to me, he ends up in the respawn box while I walk away, mainly because of the sheer amount of unskilled bandwagoners that have no idea how to play a difficult class. I play a DPS Assassin (not one of those silly darkness hybrids either) and have no trouble with them because I've taken the time to understand how their class works. But they are overtuned. Simply put, they have too much survivability. Their damage is fine, they're a pure dps class with no pure stun. And no, it's not because of Undying Rage. Not because of Force Camo. Not because of Saber Ward. Most people don't realize it, but cloak of pain/rebuke is probably the best defensive ability in the game, if not the best ability period. One might argue," it's only 20%. But that undying rage omg 99%!!!!" But a 20% decrease in overall damage taken puts marauders over the passive defense of a heavy armor user and then some. Now let me list the counters to a marauder's survivability.

 

Undying Rage/GBTF - The most notorious ability of a marauder/sent and makes them a nightmare in pug warzones. It gives them god mode for 5 seconds right? Nope. If you put a marauder at full resolve before he hits 30%, you deserve to die to them. Any decent premade will see undying rage and instantly chain stun/taunt that *****. If he has a healer, switch/cc them while you kite double glowstick man around. Kite him around, see how good of an ability undying rage is when he spends his 5 seconds derping around.

 

Force Camo - Lets them reset the fight. Don't get me wrong this is a powerful ability, but it shares the same counters with Undying Rage.

 

Saber Ward- 3 minute cooldown, almost every class has a similar defensive cooldown, must I say more?

 

Cloak of Pain/Rebuke - .......Don't hit him? This gives the marauder heavy armor status and has no serious counter. One could technically cc him and then just spam "DONT TOUCH HIM" for 6 seconds in ops chat, but how well does that generally work in warzones?

 

The primary problem with this ability is how ridiculously low its cooldown is. It essentially has a 30 second cooldown. By the time he's fighting again, it's back up. I wouldn't even call it a defensive cooldown, it's basically a defensive ability. I guarantee if DPS assassins got an ability that decreased our damage taken by 20% for 30 seconds, people would instantly switch their tears to deception/infiltration (but srsly bioware please give us another defensive CD ()Either increase the cooldown to 90 seconds or lower the damage reduced to 10%.

 

TL;DR = The other defensive CDs are easily counterable. Cloak of Pain/Rebuke gives them heavy armor status with n ocounter on a non existent cooldown.

[Lymain]

You said the counter is to CC them (or just not damage them). This may not work with idiot pugs, but basically no strategy works with pugs. It's a miracle if you can get two of them to attack the same target. In rateds, people will counter Cloak of Pain and Rebuke fairly easily.

[Jageera]

I guess my biggest gripe is the fact that their AC-exclusive CDs are on such a short CD. Simply put, nobody else has it better in the game.

 

Sent/Mara:

Rebuke/Cloak of Pain: 60 sec CD

Guarded by the Force/Undying Rage: 90 sec CD, Focus/Rage spec reduces it by 30 sec, 2pc PVP set bonus reduces it by 15 sec for a total of 45 sec CD

Force Camouflage: 45 sec CD

 

Guardian/Jugg:

Enure/Endure Pain: 90 sec CD

Warding Call/Invincible: 180 sec CD, must spec 11 points into tank tree to acquire

 

Sage/Sorc:

None!

 

Shadow/******e:

Resilience/Force Shroud: 60 sec CD

Deflection: 120 sec CD

Force Cloak: 180 sec CD, Infiltration/Deception spec reduces it by 60 sec for a total of 120 sec CD

 

Scoundrel/Operative:

Disappearing Act/Cloaking Screen: 180 sec CD, Scrapper/Concealment spec reduces it by 60 sec for a total of 120 sec CD

 

Gunslinger/Sniper:

Hunker Down/Entrench: 60 sec CD

Scrambling Field/Ballistic Shield: 180 sec CD, Saboteur/Engineering spec reduces it by 30 sec for a total of 150 sec CD

 

Vanguard/Powertech:

Hold the Line/Hydraulic Overrides: 30 sec CD, must spec 21 points into Tactics/Advanced Prototype to acquire

 

Commando/Mercenary:

Concussion Charge/Jet Boost: 30 sec CD

 

There are a slew of other defensive CDs shared between ACs, but obviously there are several ACs that get the shaft when it comes to defensive CDs. The problem with Shadows/******es aren't particularly tied in with the crazy nature of their defensive CDs as they are for Sents/Maras, though that problem is being adjusted and hopefully fixed. I agree that Rebuke/CoP is too much, but that's only just one part of the problem. No other AC in the game has all their AC-specific defensive CDs able to be used on demand, short of those who are unfortunate enough to have only one. Sent/Mara has only ONE that's above a minute in length and that's assuming they haven't specced Focus/Rage.

 

Arguing that Guarded by the Force/Undying Rage and Force Camo can be countered could be argued just the same for EVERY SINGLE defensive CD in the game. The difference is that very few other defensive CDs in are able to be used on demand, much less every single one that's granted by the AC.

 

There have been plenty of suggestions to curb the problem. When some or any of them are implemented, the game will be in a happier state. Until then, people are going to rant about it.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Jageera

[Gidoru]

Undying Rage is a huge problem actually. Being invincible for 5 seconds really isnt balanced. Mainly because if you ever get into a situation in which you and the Marauder are both low health, he will win 90% of the time especially considering he has a 15m ranged execute.

 

You can make ridiculous claims like its 'easily counterable' but really its not. Most classes need to blow their CCs/Stuns to get the Marauder low in the first place meaning that either he has full resolve, or you have no cooldowns left.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Gidoru

[Daiyukie]

Undying Rage is a huge problem actually. Being invincible for 5 seconds really isnt balanced. Mainly because if you ever get into a situation in which you and the Marauder are both low health, he will win 90% of the time especially considering he has a 15m ranged execute.

 

You can make ridiculous claims like its 'easily counterable' but really its not. Most classes need to blow their CCs/Stuns to get the Marauder low in the first place meaning that either he has full resolve, or you have no downdowns left.

 

I want some downdowns please. Oh you have none left? For shame!

[SinnedWill]

I guess my biggest gripe is the fact that their AC-exclusive CDs are on such a short CD. Simply put, nobody else has it better in the game.

 

Sent/Mara:

Rebuke/Cloak of Pain: 60 sec CD

Guarded by the Force/Undying Rage: 90 sec CD, Focus/Rage spec reduces it by 30 sec, 2pc PVP set bonus reduces it by 15 sec for a total of 45 sec CD

Force Camouflage: 45 sec CD

 

Guardian/Jugg:

Enure/Endure Pain: 90 sec CD

Warding Call/Invincible: 180 sec CD, must spec 11 points into tank tree to acquire

 

Sage/Sorc:

None!

 

Shadow/******e:

Resilience/Force Shroud: 60 sec CD

Deflection: 120 sec CD

Force Cloak: 180 sec CD, Infiltration/Deception spec reduces it by 60 sec for a total of 120 sec CD

 

Scoundrel/Operative:

Disappearing Act/Cloaking Screen: 180 sec CD, Scrapper/Concealment spec reduces it by 60 sec for a total of 120 sec CD

 

Gunslinger/Sniper:

Hunker Down/Entrench: 60 sec CD

Scrambling Field/Ballistic Shield: 180 sec CD, Saboteur/Engineering spec reduces it by 30 sec for a total of 150 sec CD

 

Vanguard/Powertech:

Hold the Line/Hydraulic Overrides: 30 sec CD, must spec 21 points into Tactics/Advanced Prototype to acquire

 

Commando/Mercenary:

Concussion Charge/Jet Boost: 30 sec CD

 

There are a slew of other defensive CDs shared between ACs, but obviously there are several ACs that get the shaft when it comes to defensive CDs. The problem with Shadows/******es aren't particularly tied in with the crazy nature of their defensive CDs as they are for Sents/Maras, though that problem is being adjusted and hopefully fixed. I agree that Rebuke/CoP is too much, but that's only just one part of the problem. No other AC in the game has all their AC-specific defensive CDs able to be used on demand, short of those who are unfortunate enough to have only one. Sent/Mara has only ONE that's above a minute in length and that's assuming they haven't specced Focus/Rage.

 

Arguing that Guarded by the Force/Undying Rage and Force Camo can be countered could be argued just the same for EVERY SINGLE defensive CD in the game. The difference is that very few other defensive CDs in are able to be used on demand, much less every single one that's granted by the AC.

 

There have been plenty of suggestions to curb the problem. When some or any of them are implemented, the game will be in a happier state. Until then, people are going to rant about it.

 

The only classes you actually have an accurate account for defensive cooldowns is Mara/Sent and Sorc/Sage - every other one you've mentioned is missing some AND you neglected to mention quite a few talented reductions (and talented bonuses). You're either unaware of what each class/spec has (or can have) fully, or you're simply trying to purposely overemphasize what maras/sents have (which I hope it is, since I'd rather not consider you incompetent).

 

By the way - best defensive ability in the game goes hands-down to taunt/aoe taunt.

[Jageera]

The only classes you actually have an accurate account for defensive cooldowns is Mara/Sent and Sorc/Sage - every other one you've mentioned is missing some AND you neglected to mention quite a few talented reductions (and talented bonuses). You're either unaware of what each class/spec has (or can have) fully, or you're simply trying to purposely overemphasize what maras/sents have (which I hope it is, since I'd rather not consider you incompetent).

 

By the way - best defensive ability in the game goes hands-down to taunt/aoe taunt.

If you read what I wrote outside of the list, you'd have noticed that I listed only AC-specific CDs. Dodge/Evasion and Defense Screen/Shield Probe, for example, are shared between Gunslingers/Snipers and Scoundrels/Operatives.

 

Feel free to point out some talent reductions I've missed. Bonuses are irrelevant, since I'm only talking about cooldown times.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Jageera

[InariOkami]

You said the counter is to CC them (or just not damage them). This may not work with idiot pugs, but basically no strategy works with pugs. It's a miracle if you can get two of them to attack the same target. In rateds, people will counter Cloak of Pain and Rebuke fairly easily.

 

The problem is by blowing your CC to take their cloak of pain off you then have to deal with a full resolve marauder with undying rage and camo up later in he fight. Not hitting them isnt viable in any situation because then youre giving them free reign over whomever they want to beat on for 6 seconds. Then you have the problems of dots and aoes refreshing it while they're cc'ed.

[Lymain]

The problem is by blowing your CC to take their cloak of pain off you then have to deal with a full resolve marauder with undying rage and camo up later in he fight. Not hitting them isnt viable in any situation because then youre giving them free reign over whomever they want to beat on for 6 seconds. Then you have the problems of dots and aoes refreshing it while they're cc'ed.

 

1) Mezzes generally don't give full resolve. There are also roots that last 5 seconds if you prefer.

2) Uhh, don't DoT them? And you only need to watch AEs for 6 seconds every minute.

 

I assume you know this, but there's a distinct sound effect whenever you damage them with it up. I really don't think coordinated players will have a hard time countering it.

[UGLYMRJ]

Awesome... another marauder post. These aren't getting repetitive at all...

[TheronFett]

Awesome... another marauder post. These aren't getting repetitive at all...

 

At least this one got it right. It wasn't a nerf DPS post.

 

Mara/Sent DPS is just fine...but their over the top survivability does need some tweaking.

[Stratoforce]

This one would have it right if Marauders/Sentinels, or any class for that matter was hard to play. The difference between playing a Marauder and any other melee, or even ranged right now is night and day. The only thing that compares is powertechs/vanguards.

 

Marauders/sentinels are not only easy to play, but output easy, high damage numbers, with amazing defensive cooldowns on short timers. Something has to give somewhere, cooldowns, damage, mobility, utility.

 

My operative would love a slow that got applied with auto attacks. :\

[Astarica]

You really can't even CC a Marauder out of Cloak of Pain because the vast majority of CCs do damage in some way. For example you can stun a Marauder out of Undying Rage (not necessarily good idea, but it works) but only Electro Dart works for this purpose against Cloak of Pain because every other stun also does a tiny amount of damage on the side. Likewise you can KB a Marauder out of Undying Rage (great idea usually) but you can't KB a Marauder out of Cloak of Pain, because the KB itself does damage.

[Lenlo]

It's impossible to balance around 1v1

...-Simply put, they have too much survivability-...

See to actually kill a Sentinel/marauder, you actually have to kite them unless your a guardian/juggernaut.

[SinnedWill]

If you read what I wrote outside of the list, you'd have noticed that I listed only AC-specific CDs. Dodge/Evasion and Defense Screen/Shield Probe, for example, are shared between Gunslingers/Snipers and Scoundrels/Operatives.

 

Feel free to point out some talent reductions I've missed. Bonuses are irrelevant, since I'm only talking about cooldown times.

 

Bonuses are irrelevent because you're only talking about cooldown times? What?! 1.) Some bonuses are attached to abilities that HAVE cooldown times. 2.) These bonuses account for the majority of some classes' survival, and marauaders have ZERO bonuses from talents that attach to abilities to significantly increase their survivability - people completely overlook this all the time.

Also, you listed stuns/cc for merc/commando as defensives...

 

Here's some examples:

Stabilized Armor in AP Pyrotech tree: +20% damage reduction while stunned - this is HUGE.

Power Barrier in Arsenal Merc Tree: +5% (at 5 stacks) damage reduction - obtained from powershot/tracer missiles - lasts 15s, but can be sustained indefinitely - fairly significant, but tracer monkeys die often due to lack of mobility and early focus fire.

Juggernauts: Intercede, Enraged Defense (pretty sure you didn't list these at all), and then...

Unstoppable from Vengeance Tree: 20% damage reduction + stun/mez/interrupt immunity for 4s after force charge - HUGE

Deafening Defense from Vengeance Tree: 4% damage reduction (always) + 15% Damage Reduction during Enraged Defense - HUGE

Sonic Barrier from Immortal Tree: Force Scream gives a damage absorb bubble (not terribly much, but it certainly doesn't hurt a class that already mitigates mad damage).

 

... the list goes on. These are just a few examples - oh, and marauders can't get anything significant like this (but.. annihilation gets self-healing, rage gets some passive damage mitigation, and carnage can get AoE damage reduction... coz... y'know, the most mobile marauder spec loves to sit still in AoE markers on the ground).

 

Also, you said rage/focus mara/sents get the UR/GBtF cooldown (in addition to gear set bonuses), yet you don't include potential gear set bonuses for others (and you simply stated that UR/GBtF is 45s - can't get that cooldown as any other marauder/sentinel spec since it's so high up in the skill tree, so it's safe to say it's 90s -75s with gear set bonus- for the vast majority of marauders which are annihilation)

 

Since you asked for some examples of talented cooldown reductions, here ya go:

Darkness/Kinetic Assassins/Shadows get force shroud duration increased to 5s, cooldown reduced to 45s. They also get a snare/root break attached to force speed and force speed's cooldown can be reduced to 20s.

 

And of course, you completely neglected to mention taunts - which reduce damage by more than 30% if applied to a character with expertise (reduces the base damage of the ability before expertise gets factored).

[SinnedWill]

You really can't even CC a Marauder out of Cloak of Pain because the vast majority of CCs do damage in some way. For example you can stun a Marauder out of Undying Rage (not necessarily good idea, but it works) but only Electro Dart works for this purpose against Cloak of Pain because every other stun also does a tiny amount of damage on the side. Likewise you can KB a Marauder out of Undying Rage (great idea usually) but you can't KB a Marauder out of Cloak of Pain, because the KB itself does damage.

 

Yes, it resets the timer, but by the time the stun/root/knockback expires, it doesn't have much time left (you're not likely to even be hit once before they can get back to you by the time it does fully expire).

Best thing I find for doing this is to use leg shot (5s root) or cover pulse (knockback + root). Not that stunning and LoS'ing doesn't work - but... sorry, Cloak of Pain is overrated. You know how everyone kills Mercs/Commandos/VG's/PT's even though they have their shields up and heavy armor? Yeah, that bubble is 25% damage reduction yet you still do good damage to them.

 

Trust me, as a carnage marauder, cloak of pain alone doesn't cut it - it's mostly used to help me maintain rage - not that it isn't great to use when someone sticks a long duration DoT on me, though (pretty much the only way I get anywhere near having it last full duration).

[kaya]

At least this one got it right. It wasn't a nerf DPS post.

 

Mara/Sent DPS is just fine...but their over the top survivability does need some tweaking.

 

And he picked the right cd to call for a nerf on.

[Bbizzle]

The real problem is the it resets on dots. It shouldnt. Dots are how they keep it up so long. It should be direct damage only.

[DocSinn]

Such a tiresome subject.....people let it go. Roll a Sent/Mara, learn their weaknesses, or unsub.

 

These threads....jesus....enough already...

[Seravis]

You CANNOT have a pure melee class with purely backloaded damage being squishy enough that they are a viable focus targets in PVP.

 

Look at Deception Assassins and how they are a terrible spec and noone plays it because they are basically Marauders with half the survivability. Luckily for Assassins they still have a good spec with Tanksins so they don't have to reroll.

 

Please do NOT turn all 3 Marauder specs into the new "Deception Assassin" simply because your team decided to focus someone other than the enemy healers.

 

Here is a hint for fighting teams with Marauders. Marauders are one of the worst classes at protecting their healers. They are also one of the easiest classes to "peel" off of your healers. In a game that is 100% about focusing down healers first it should be pretty obvious what to do now yes?

[Arayla]

You CANNOT have a pure melee class with purely backloaded damage being squishy enough that they are a viable focus targets in PVP.

 

Look at Deception Assassins and how they are a terrible spec and noone plays it because they are basically Marauders with half the survivability. Luckily for Assassins they still have a good spec with Tanksins so they don't have to reroll.

 

Please do NOT turn all 3 Marauder specs into the new "Deception Assassin" simply because your team decided to focus someone other than the enemy healers.

 

Here is a hint for fighting teams with Marauders. Marauders are one of the worst classes at protecting their healers. They are also one of the easiest classes to "peel" off of your healers. In a game that is 100% about focusing down healers first it should be pretty obvious what to do now yes?

 

How are marauders any easier to peel then any other class, if anything its much harder. Few other ACs have gap closers on as short a cooldown as marauders.

[InariOkami]

1) Mezzes generally don't give full resolve. There are also roots that last 5 seconds if you prefer.

2) Uhh, don't DoT them? And you only need to watch AEs for 6 seconds every minute.

 

I assume you know this, but there's a distinct sound effect whenever you damage them with it up. I really don't think coordinated players will have a hard time countering it.

 

As of right now, the only two roots that last over 5 seconds that come to mind are snipers and hybrid sorcs. Snipers are a very strong counter to melee dps, but I'm speaking for the rest of us, and hybrid sorcs are fairly uncommon. Now here's another thing, there are half the classes in this game have some sort of dot spec. Pyrotechs and mercs, madness sorcerers/sages, other marauders/sents, vengeance jugs/guardians, and lethality ops/ madness assassins (both uncommon but still around). All of them have dots that last over 10 second with the majority using dots that last 18 seconds long. That's 24 seconds of cloak of pain from just one dot. Another thing is you're not taking into account AOEs. AOEs are everywhere in warzones. So if you're waiting out this 6 seconds and an aoe hits them, which is pretty likely, then you have to do it for another 6 seconds. There's just wayyyy too many things that have to go right to justify how strong this ability is.

 

You CANNOT have a pure melee class with purely backloaded damage being squishy enough that they are a viable focus targets in PVP.

 

Look at Deception Assassins and how they are a terrible spec and noone plays it because they are basically Marauders with half the survivability. Luckily for Assassins they still have a good spec with Tanksins so they don't have to reroll.

 

I wouldn't say that. Deception isn't terrible, it's just gimmicky against good players. A good deception assassin will know how to use their defensive cooldowns correctly and survive a decent amount. I'd know because I have absolutely 0 points in darkness and without a healer around I can survive as long as a lot of tankasins out there because I know how countering classes work. With that said, back to the topic...

 

Yes, it resets the timer, but by the time the stun/root/knockback expires, it doesn't have much time left (you're not likely to even be hit once before they can get back to you by the time it does fully expire).

Best thing I find for doing this is to use leg shot (5s root) or cover pulse (knockback + root). Not that stunning and LoS'ing doesn't work - but... sorry, Cloak of Pain is overrated. You know how everyone kills Mercs/Commandos/VG's/PT's even though they have their shields up and heavy armor? Yeah, that bubble is 25% damage reduction yet you still do good damage to them.

 

Trust me, as a carnage marauder, cloak of pain alone doesn't cut it - it's mostly used to help me maintain rage - not that it isn't great to use when someone sticks a long duration DoT on me, though (pretty much the only way I get anywhere near having it last full duration).

 

Thanks for mentioning this. I have no intention of asking for Bioware to lower carnage's survivability. Carnage is the deception of the marauder skill trees (but slightly better) and needs no survivability nerf. It wouldn't be a bad idea to put a talent in to reduce the cooldown back to 60 seconds after the suggested tweak deep into the carnage tree. Don't get me started on rage, that spec is just flawed in so many ways beyond squishiness. On your comment about the BH and Trooper defensive CD, it has a 2 minute cooldown and lasts 12 seconds. And again, your suggested counters are sniper/gunslinger specific. And even then, you have to pray that they don't get hit by any stray aoe's or have a pre-existing DoT applied by someone else.

Edited June 21, 2012 by InariOkami

[Astarica]

Someone already mentioned but Energy Shield is 12s/120s CD, while Claok of Pain is effectively 30s/60s CD. Yes you can talk about a fairy tale when the moment you stun/kb anyone everyone on your team magically stops using any attack that can possibly hit the Marauder for the next 6 seconds. In the real world he probably has a dot that just keeps ticking anyway, or he gets hit by an AE, or someone just decides to hit him anyway. Compared to say Undying Rage, if you stun someone in UR and another person hits him, you waste that' guys damage but you didn't lose the intended effect of stun (reduce his DPS while he's effectively invulnerable). Against Cloak of Pain that doesn't work. Say I KB you, and another guy hits him (or dot, or AE), I immediately lose what I intended to gain from my KB (presumably to remove Cloak of Pain), and now I'm down a CD versus something like Undying Rage, and Marauder has extra resolve, and he still has his Cloak of Pain up.

 

Only Tankasins can DPS through Cloak of Pain since they've higher overall survivality so they can just slug it out. Other classes will fall behind trying to DPS through Cloak of Pain but you also can't realistically get rid of it under any realistic situation.

 

To put things in perspective Energy Shield is +25% mitigation for 12s with 120s CD so it's up 10% of the time, and it is actually a pretty strong defensive CD. Cloak of Pain can potentially be up 50% of the time, and let's say you just suck so that it only lasts 12 seconds each time you use it (as long as Energy Shield), it's still up 20% of the time. That's basically Energy Shield with half the recast. Ask PT/Merc if they'd take a 5% reduction in ES bonus for half the refresh time. I'm nearly certain they'll take it.

[Jageera]

Bonuses are irrelevent because you're only talking about cooldown times? What?! 1.) Some bonuses are attached to abilities that HAVE cooldown times.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

2.) These bonuses account for the majority of some classes' survival, and marauaders have ZERO bonuses from talents that attach to abilities to significantly increase their survivability - people completely overlook this all the time.

So what? The CDs they have already make them the most survivable DPS class, bar none. One could argue that hybrid Shadows take this role, and they wouldn't be far off, but Hyrbid DPS is LOL compared a Mara of any spec.

Also, you listed stuns/cc for merc/commando as defensives...

Because they're defensive cooldowns (which is all I'm talking about, ffs) for an AC that's literally been buried six feet under. Comparing Maras to DPS Commandos/Merc is likening Spartans from 300 to the Rain Man.

 

Here's some examples:

Stabilized Armor in AP Pyrotech tree: +20% damage reduction while stunned - this is HUGE.

Not only is this talent unable to be used ON DEMAND, it's also completely reliant on resolve not being filled. Where a Vanguard might need that bit of damage reduction to finish a foe, he can't get any benefit from it if his resolve bar is full. A Mara, on the other hand, will invariably have several options to choose from to close the fight-... at will-... and will only benefit from a full resolve bar.

Power Barrier in Arsenal Merc Tree: +5% (at 5 stacks) damage reduction - obtained from powershot/tracer missiles - lasts 15s, but can be sustained indefinitely - fairly significant, but tracer monkeys die often due to lack of mobility and early focus fire.

That's a fair mention that I was unaware of. Good call.

Juggernauts: Intercede, Enraged Defense (pretty sure you didn't list these at all), and then...

Guardian Leap is a taunt... a taunt is support from a source outside of the person the Mara is ravaging. Bringing that up in a discussion comparing defensive CDs is reaching. Focused Defense is ABSOLUTE GARBAGE that loses you fights unless you you spec 22 points into Vigilance. On that front, yes... I missed that one. But Rebuke is clearly far superior to anyone with a brain.

Unstoppable from Vengeance Tree: 20% damage reduction + stun/mez/interrupt immunity for 4s after force charge - HUGE

Yeah... Unremitting rules. But it won't win you close fights, much less reset fights. It's also much more difficult to strategically use in a duel than any one of the Mara CDs the discussion is about. After all, Guardians can't talent Force leap to 0m minimum distance like Maras can. But hey, it's great for Huttball! Personally, I wouldn't classify Force Leap as a CD... but to each their own.

Deafening Defense from Vengeance Tree: 4% damage reduction (always) + 15% Damage Reduction during Enraged Defense - HUGE

See Focused Defense above. Not even gonna start to talk about tank tree talents, considering that's not a DPS spec.

 

... the list goes on. These are just a few examples - oh, and marauders can't get anything significant like this (but.. annihilation gets self-healing, rage gets some passive damage mitigation, and carnage can get AoE damage reduction... coz... y'know, the most mobile marauder spec loves to sit still in AoE markers on the ground).

How about Rebuke generating focus? An ability that gives you DR better than heavy armor, damages attackers, and fills your resource bar by pressing one button. How about casting lock-down in the Annihilation tree via Close Quarters and Subjugation? How about Pacify/Obfuscate (which I forgot to include in my list, btw)... which has an increased range via Carnage. Or Force Camouflage removing movement-impairing effects via Carnage. Don't whine about not getting cool toys in your talent tree. The fact that you get all your good stuff out the box is enough.

 

Also, you said rage/focus mara/sents get the UR/GBtF cooldown (in addition to gear set bonuses), yet you don't include potential gear set bonuses for others (and you simply stated that UR/GBtF is 45s - can't get that cooldown as any other marauder/sentinel spec since it's so high up in the skill tree, so it's safe to say it's 90s -75s with gear set bonus- for the vast majority of marauders which are annihilation)

We have no idea what the spec spread in the game is. Don't claim that you do. Also, nitpicking the 45sec makes you pro. Nobody would have figured out that speccing out of Rage would make it 75 sec.

 

Since you asked for some examples of talented cooldown reductions, here ya go:

Darkness/Kinetic Assassins/Shadows get force shroud duration increased to 5s, cooldown reduced to 45s. They also get a snare/root break attached to force speed and force speed's cooldown can be reduced to 20s.

Thanks. I need to play FOTM classes more often.

 

And of course, you completely neglected to mention taunts - which reduce damage by more than 30% if applied to a character with expertise (reduces the base damage of the ability before expertise gets factored).

Irrelevant. If I'm getting destroyed by a Mara, I can't taunt it to take less damage. Sorry that you get no taunt, but you're already better at your job than every other class in the game.

[SinnedWill]

Someone already mentioned but Energy Shield is 12s/120s CD, while Claok of Pain is effectively 30s/60s CD. Yes you can talk about a fairy tale when the moment you stun/kb anyone everyone on your team magically stops using any attack that can possibly hit the Marauder for the next 6 seconds. In the real world he probably has a dot that just keeps ticking anyway, or he gets hit by an AE, or someone just decides to hit him anyway. Compared to say Undying Rage, if you stun someone in UR and another person hits him, you waste that' guys damage but you didn't lose the intended effect of stun (reduce his DPS while he's effectively invulnerable). Against Cloak of Pain that doesn't work. Say I KB you, and another guy hits him (or dot, or AE), I immediately lose what I intended to gain from my KB (presumably to remove Cloak of Pain), and now I'm down a CD versus something like Undying Rage, and Marauder has extra resolve, and he still has his Cloak of Pain up.

 

Only Tankasins can DPS through Cloak of Pain since they've higher overall survivality so they can just slug it out. Other classes will fall behind trying to DPS through Cloak of Pain but you also can't realistically get rid of it under any realistic situation.

 

To put things in perspective Energy Shield is +25% mitigation for 12s with 120s CD so it's up 10% of the time, and it is actually a pretty strong defensive CD. Cloak of Pain can potentially be up 50% of the time, and let's say you just suck so that it only lasts 12 seconds each time you use it (as long as Energy Shield), it's still up 20% of the time. That's basically Energy Shield with half the recast. Ask PT/Merc if they'd take a 5% reduction in ES bonus for half the refresh time. I'm nearly certain they'll take it.

 

Cloak of Pain or not, I have no issues killing marauders on any of my toons with it up. I do NOT relent. My madness sorc throws out long DoT's and since one of those has a 2s root attached to it (which is VITAL for me being able to kite marauders), it's pretty much guaranteed that they'll have cloak of pain up for the entire fight against me (and I'll still win). Seriously, do you guy completely stop attacking commandos/mercs or vanguards/pt's when they pop energy shield? NO! And energy shield mitigates more damage (in addition to their already high armor mitigation).

 

People really have a lot of misconceptions about marauder/sentinel survivability. Most of it comes from them being recipients of heals and players lack the situational awareness to idenfity the healer(s) to focus down before the marauder all because they freak out the moment they see a marauder on the field and within their targeting/attacking range. I think the issue with people not switching off of marauder/sentinels over to the healer that's saving his butt is because they are SO SQUISHY! It is VERY EASY to make marauder's health bars drop significantly - so they pop defensive cooldowns which results in a sudden change to the whole situation.

 

In essence, people that complain about marauders simply don't understand that they're DIFFICULT (but not impossible) to be beaten in DPS races - both their offensives and defensives happen to be short burst interval windows - this makes them VERY GOOD for short windows. Stretch out the fights, and maras/sents are a joke.