Zbus Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Ill leave a link its from the vanguard boards but should provide decent info on the failure of tanks stats and the reality of the current gameplay. http://taugrim.com/2012/01/19/understanding-swtors-avoidance-and-mitigation-mechanics-for-tanks-in-pvp/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozed Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 There are a ton of misconceptions about damage and attack types, the best thread I've seen so far is this one: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=158112&page=9 The breakdown similar to what I just provided is about halfway down the page, written by user BallaRa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinrei Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) Fail change imo. I run as a Veng Jugg and I'm always in Soresu form. You don't have a choice imo. The TTK since 1.2 is so high that if you don't have a tank/defensive stance you get obliterated. The damage buff to SSM was needed for us in PvP and according to quite a few of my PvE friends that as well. Shi Cho form - Only SWs I see using this is Maras or nub Juggs who don't understand how important the passive damage reduction is in PvP. Shien form - Only time I ever use this is when focusing a ball carrier down or a healer is by himself and I won't be taking damage. --- SSM is fine as is(for PvP). Juggs DPS is finally in a good place and now you're taking away 6% with no replacement for it in other talents. Having bonus 6% damage and increased survibility from Soresu put us in a good spot in PvP when everyone thought we were gonna be trash. Now we lose that extra survibility...do the devs even play a SWs? Lets nerf Jugg survibility and damage, but not touch Maras. Right....makes sense. Oh and take away the latter rage cost(1 rage for heal) of Enraged Defense and the need to take damage inorder to get a heal. Yay 550HP heal when I'm taking 2-2.5K damage.. Edited June 8, 2012 by Sinrei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zbus Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 There are a ton of misconceptions about damage and attack types, the best thread I've seen so far is this one: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=158112&page=9 The breakdown similar to what I just provided is about halfway down the page, written by user BallaRa. I read that one it is a good post on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Soon you will see no one guardian, who will save your healer alive under guard... Lies. Stance dancing is still a great option and so op'ed and worth doing to protect people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twor Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Lies. Stance dancing is still a great option and so op'ed and worth doing to protect people. Wish PTs could do that. Assasins can't do it anymore either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir-Coffee Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Maybe you should learn to read? I think its pretty clear. Here let me break it down for you in terms you will understand. DPS speced Juggs use soresu form as a crutch, just like sins currenty do, and PTs used to. Im all for Bioware taking that crutch away. Maybe you should learn to play a Jugg? I think it's pretty clear. Here, let me break it down for you in terms you will understand. DPS "speced" Rage Juggs who use soresu form as a crutch have no other options, The TTK since 1.2 is so high that if you don't have a tank/defensive stance you stand no chance. Shi-cho form was nerfed, so that crippled our DPS. Sins and PTs... you are seriously comparing our burst damage to theirs?? That right there shows you don't know anything. A rage Jugg who gets 6k crits non stop? Then where are all of these Rage Juggs? How geared are the people on your server? Are you a sorcerer who gets stomped on? PTs and sins can faceroll us heavy armor Juggs, and any other class except for a marauder. You must be terrible at this game. You do realize that if you knockback or stun a Rage Jugg on force charge, they're done, right? That's all, a knockback or stun on force charge. Please post a recent video which features yourself playing a warzone to prove me wrong. Where a knockback/stun after force charge doesn't cripple a Rage Jugg. Oh, and show us your own personal video of these Juggs who drop 6k crits on players wearing heavy armor. I'd love to ask them how they do it. Prior to 1.2, yeah, I'd believe you. Before 1.2 - A Rage Jugg who used soresu only, crippled their DPS After 1.2 - A Rage Jugg who uses soresu only, is left with no other option. I play a Veng Jugg, and I only use Soresu(besides getting my quick medals) if I am defending a node by myself, that way a stealth class doesn't obliterate me. It's pathetic. Oh, and tank Juggs have pathetic dps output. Just my 2 cents/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lymain Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 From an 18/23/0 perspective, I'm not really bothered by this change. Yeah, the damage nerf will hurt, but we get some minor survivability buffs to help make up for it. I'm mainly just glad I can still get the full benefits of Deafening Defense in Soresu Form, and I guess if the damage nerf dissuades some fotm rerollers, all the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozed Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I have a Guardian and I'm not cocerned with this change in the slightest. I play full Vigilance in Soresu, but I'm constantly adjusting certain things like stance and my off-hand depending on the situation in WZs. I wear the Vindicator set and mostly run a Fortitude stim with a shield off-hand to start the match and weigh the playing field. If my healers are getting trashed, I'm ready to Guard and peel. If they are marauder/sniper heavy I have a shield to help mitigate damage. Even with the shield on and Soresu form up, I can dish out crazy damage if I manage my focus correctly. And lastly if I so choose I can swap in the Power generator and Shien form to do great DPS. A six percent change to one form only hurts static PvPers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Wish PTs could do that. Assasins can't do it anymore either. Why can't assassins do it? And yeah PT's should be able to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinrei Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Why can't assassins do it? And yeah PT's should be able to. PTs were nerfed because the burst damage they could do was insane. A PT mate showed me his tank stance DPS and DPS stance one and if they could stance dance, it'd make Maras look like they hit with a wet noodle. I have no idea what it was like Pre 1.2, but Post 1.2 PTs/Maras scare me on my Jugg. Only classes that constantly causes me trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozed Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) PTs were nerfed because the burst damage they could do was insane. A PT mate showed me his tank stance DPS and DPS stance one and if they could stance dance, it'd make Maras look like they hit with a wet noodle. I have no idea what it was like Pre 1.2, but Post 1.2 PTs/Maras scare me on my Jugg. Only classes that constantly causes me trouble. As a Guardian I never "fear" Sents/Marauders in any situation. However I do know that a well played Sent/Marauder is a tough fight in a pure 1v1 situation in which they have all their CDs since they effectively have 11 seconds where they take virtually no damage from a melee damage dealer (pacify and guarded by the force), and 30 seconds of 20% reduction from rebuke. Well timed CC is necessary to win that fight. In any group sitation you can completely shut a Marauder down with taunts, Guard, CC, guardian leap, and damage. Well played tanks make life very difficult for DPS ACs. Edited June 8, 2012 by Boozed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FourTwent Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 ^ This. Was +6% damage by 3 points for all forms. Tier 1 Vigilance tree. ^ and this. Before 1.3 it was 2% for each point. Tier 3 Defence tree. So, for pure PVP tanks under Soresu, and for Soresu/Vigilance hybrids (like my 16/25/0) with these changes we still have our +6% defence with Riposte, but we loss +6% damage from Tier 1 Vigilance tree. Its -6% nerf to all melee damage. Why, Bioware? Why? Our crappy low damage now will be laughable crap in PVP. Oh, wait, all that changes with increasing threat generation probably pretty good for PVE, but for PVP Guardian tanks -6% of all melee damage looks strong nerf. Bioware, why you so hate classic looks single-lightsaber jedi knights? didn't they just add a 20% healing debuff to the attack adrenal too? and since adrenals will be banned in pvp, the only other logical reason why they're doing this is to tone down the DPS from tanks in pve. so it seems they are trying to bring down the tank dps a little Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 In any group sitation you can completely shut a Marauder down with taunts, Guard, CC, guardian leap, and damage. Well played tanks make life very difficult for DPS ACs. yes it does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletun Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I play a Tank (Defense) guardian. This is gonna hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seravis Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 ^This. If you want us to tank, let us tank by having our defences applicable against more than 30% of all attacks used in PvP. For Chrissakes, pure DPS classes like snipers/maras get amazing defensive CD's, and we're getting torn apart by Force/Tech attacks. I agree with you that tanks stats should work against ALL classes. But I also love the irony that Sniper/Maras are also the classes that DON'T ignore your defences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kweassa Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 In soresu form you get 50 - 55% passive mitigation. That's 30% more than medium armor. 30% is not a small difference. No you don't. At most you get around 40~45% from the pure boost in armor rating. You get an additional 6% from the flat increase in mitigation Soresu provides by itself, so the average PvP player, who's not yet finished WH gear farming, and having a mix of BM+WH gear, would probably be at around 47~49%. Usually its only after full WH gear you push past 50%. You can get another 4% through Commanding Awe/Deafening Defense, which takes up 22 points into the Vigilance/Vengeance tree - and in this case, is where you would see people having 55% defense... and although Vigilance has some defensive traits, its not a tank tree. (Hence the argument that Commanding Awe/Deafening Defense is a skill that should have been given to the Defense/Immortal tree, not Vigilance/Vengeance) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kweassa Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 I agree with you that tanks stats should work against ALL classes. But I also love the irony that Sniper/Maras are also the classes that DON'T ignore your defences. ...and while a mara/sent has many attacks that respect your defenses, in return, the attacks that land on you ignore armor... ironical, ain't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 (edited) What they need to do is make it so that "damage taken" in the warzone shows damage before mitigation and includes mitigation in it. This way, it would become much more obvious how much shielding and dodging actually helps, so that tank specs who are bad can stop crying that they don't tank well enough. It's pretty obvious that the tanking stance is pretty good or people wouldn't be standing in it as DPS specs. Edited June 15, 2012 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kweassa Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Oh, and as the game's most rare 31-5-5 Full-defense Guardian, I welcome this change as a step in the right direction. To us "true" tank builds who sacrificed any damage long time ago, basically this change implies that the functionality of Riposte has been changed so that now, we are less dependant on it - Riposte's gonna lose 3% in defense, but that 3% is going to be added to Soresu so it's permanent. While it hurts a bit to lose the damage on Hilt Strike and Guardian Strike (yes, for us Defense guardians, even Hilt Strike and Guardian Strike was an important source of damage), the increased accuracy debuff and properly scaling Blade Barrier could only be a good change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayshadow Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 ^ This. Was +6% damage by 3 points for all forms. Tier 1 Vigilance tree. ^ and this. Before 1.3 it was 2% for each point. Tier 3 Defence tree. So, for pure PVP tanks under Soresu, and for Soresu/Vigilance hybrids (like my 16/25/0) with these changes we still have our +6% defence with Riposte, but we loss +6% damage from Tier 1 Vigilance tree. Its -6% nerf to all melee damage. Why, Bioware? Why? Our crappy low damage now will be laughable crap in PVP. Oh, wait, all that changes with increasing threat generation probably pretty good for PVE, but for PVP Guardian tanks -6% of all melee damage looks strong nerf. Bioware, why you so hate classic looks single-lightsaber jedi knights? I PvP full tank spec and have had no issues taking on most classes 1vs1. I can beat anything but healers (I can beat them, but it takes too long to bother in a solo situation) and vanguard tanks. Actually, any other tank I find difficult as they either have better mitigation (vanguard) or better DPS (shadow). I like this change. The more tanky the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kweassa Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 It's pretty obvious that the tanking stance is pretty good or people wouldn't be standing in it as DPS specs. If the defense/shield rating had any real meaning, you'd see a lot more people considering [tanking stance + tank spec] as a viable option, instead of the horde of cookie cutter defense-vigilance(immortal-vengeance) builds (which btw, is trumped by defense-focus hybrids .. ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxipad Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 (edited) Tank damage has been the N1 problem since beta in this game (if one does not count the Engine troubles this game had/has). Edited June 15, 2012 by Maxipad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmith Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 because tanks are supposed to TANK ??? not DPSing. Want to DPS, change to DPS spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamosh Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 (edited) Soon you will see no one guardian, who will save your healer alive under guard... i keep my healers alive just fine with my firebug (pyropt) just taunt and nuke them down faster then any tank can and im getting tired of those 41984091094+012 tanks running around every match doing 200k less dmg then me and dont get any freaking protection points Edited June 15, 2012 by mamosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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