TonyDragonflame Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=463539 Guardian Vigilance Single Saber Mastery now applies different effects based on your current Form. Shii-Cho Form now increases all Force damage dealt by 2% per point. Shien Form now increases all melee damage dealt by 2% per point. Soresu Form now increases melee and ranged defense by 1% per point and increases the threat generated by Force Sweep and Cyclone Slash by 10% per point. ^ This. Was +6% damage by 3 points for all forms. Tier 1 Vigilance tree. Defense Blade Barricade: Riposte now increases melee and ranged defense by 1% per point and lasts 12 seconds. ^ and this. Before 1.3 it was 2% for each point. Tier 3 Defence tree. So, for pure PVP tanks under Soresu, and for Soresu/Vigilance hybrids (like my 16/25/0) with these changes we still have our +6% defence with Riposte, but we loss +6% damage from Tier 1 Vigilance tree. Its -6% nerf to all melee damage. Why, Bioware? Why? Our crappy low damage now will be laughable crap in PVP. Oh, wait, all that changes with increasing threat generation probably pretty good for PVE, but for PVP Guardian tanks -6% of all melee damage looks strong nerf. Bioware, why you so hate classic looks single-lightsaber jedi knights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveandDieinLA Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I agree with this change. There are a ton of Juggs on my server who run full rage spec but stay in soresu form all the time, to get the 50% + damage reduction. These guys can still drop 6k smashes, while keeping tank survivability. Just as the Carolina parakeet was nerfed, and the darkness madness hybrid, I believe that you shouldnt be able so so easily get tank damage reduction while in a dps build. Just my 2 cents/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyDragonflame Posted June 8, 2012 Author Share Posted June 8, 2012 I agree with this change. There are a ton of Juggs on my server who run full rage spec but stay in soresu form all the time, to get the 50% + damage reduction. These guys can still drop 6k smashes, while keeping tank survivability. Just as the Carolina parakeet was nerfed, and the darkness madness hybrid, I believe that you shouldnt be able so so easily get tank damage reduction while in a dps build. Just my 2 cents/ Soon you will see no one guardian, who will save your healer alive under guard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zbus Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Its not just guardians and jugs they took the nerf bat to all the tank classes. Seems if you want to pvp dont roll a tank class is the message. Its funny in a way Bioware made defense stats worthless so players moved away from the tank portion of pvp and adjusted by wearing dps gear to somewhat make up for this oversight. This allowed for guards and still being useful in the dps area not Op but useful. Now with patches like this you can see bioware trying to force players back into the role of true tanks by nerfing the damge portion of the new playstyle. Sad part is they have still failed to fix the stats that make a tank a tank in pvp. All this patch will do is force the guys who played dps/tanks to go full dps tree with no guard or just give up the class and go to a DPS class like Mara/Sent for the combined dps/defensive CD's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JidaiGeki Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Sad part is they have still failed to fix the stats that make a tank a tank in pvp. All this patch will do is force the guys who played dps/tanks to go full dps tree with no guard or just give up the class and go to a DPS class like Mara/Sent for the combined dps/defensive CD's. ^This. If you want us to tank, let us tank by having our defences applicable against more than 30% of all attacks used in PvP. For Chrissakes, pure DPS classes like snipers/maras get amazing defensive CD's, and we're getting torn apart by Force/Tech attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekish Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) .. There are a ton of Juggs on my server who run full rage spec but stay in soresu form all the time, to get the 50% + damage reduction. Just my 2 cents/ What 50% damage reduction? Care to get informed before throwing cents around? Edited June 8, 2012 by Sekish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracosz Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) I agree with this change. There are a ton of Juggs on my server who run full rage spec but stay in soresu form all the time, to get the 50% + damage reduction. These guys can still drop 6k smashes, while keeping tank survivability. You actually get no benefit towards your smashes from SSM at the moment. It only affects obliterate, vicious slash, sundering assault and assault. The change is actually a net buff for soresu rage, though losing out on 6% force damage kind of blows for them if they're not using shii-cho. EDIT: The change is strictly a nerf to thee specs that Juggernauts use at the moment, Straight up immortal/immortal dps and vengeance/immortal hybrids that swap between vengeance and soresu. The latter is effectively dead with the change since they'll be down 12% damage instead of 6% while in soresu (which was needed considering good players could mantain nearly all their DPS while acting in a tank role) while the former lost significantly more with the nerfs to Crushing Blow's primary damage hit. Edited June 8, 2012 by Dracosz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacklashEH Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) I don't think I've ever been guarded by a sweep guardian. They definitely need to change shield so it can proc against any damage type though, as well as have armor effect all attack types Edited June 8, 2012 by BacklashEH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracosz Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I don't think I've ever been guarded by a sweep guardian. They definitely need to change shield so it can proc against any damage type though, as well as have armor effect all attack types Then they're idiots and need to reroll marauders, sadly. Shii-Cho Variants of rage are godawful in this patch unless you regularly play against undergeared players that scream like little girls when you charge at them. Soresu rage does similar levels of damage while maintaining high protection and survivability as well as very strong rage-efficiency, something that shii-cho variants of rage sorely lack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durvas Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 For Chrissakes, pure DPS classes like snipers/maras get amazing defensive CD's wat /5char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetou Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 What 50% damage reduction? Care to get informed before throwing cents around? If you are in Soresu your damage mitigation from armour will be 50-55%. If you are in a different form it will be about 30-35%. So, it's both a 50% damage reduction and also a 50% increase in damage reduction... With regards to the actual topic, I have no idea why they are reducing pure-tank damage even further. Guardians tanking in Defense, rather than Vigilance, are already a huge liability to the team compared to alternative 'tank' options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewgal Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 There are a ton of Juggs on my server who run full rage spec but stay in soresu form all the time, to get the 50% + damage reduction. These guys can still drop 6k smashes, while keeping tank survivability. Yes. It is a fair change and will bring Jug dps into line with what you would expect for a tank in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveandDieinLA Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) What 50% damage reduction? Care to get informed before throwing cents around? My buddy plays a Vig guardian, he has 53% damage reduction from armor. Care to be informed before you talk down to people? Edited June 8, 2012 by LiveandDieinLA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalcoLombardi Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I don't think I've ever been guarded by a sweep guardian. They definitely need to change shield so it can proc against any damage type though, as well as have armor effect all attack types This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir-Coffee Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I agree with this change. There are a ton of Juggs on my server who run full rage spec but stay in soresu form all the time, to get the 50% + damage reduction. These guys can still drop 6k smashes, while keeping tank survivability. Just as the Carolina parakeet was nerfed, and the darkness madness hybrid, I believe that you shouldnt be able so so easily get tank damage reduction while in a dps build. Just my 2 cents/ This entire quote doesn't make any sense. You have no idea what you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalcoLombardi Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 My buddy plays a Vig guardian, he has 53% damage reduction from armor. That reminds me, why the heck does the DPS spec get 4% damage reduction to all types, and the Tank spec only get it towards internal and elemental? Also, the 15% damage reduction with Enraged Defense up is in the DPS spec, I don't mind that it's their but switch the 2 damage reducers around and put a talent in the Tanking tree that reduces damage by 5-10%, when Enraged defense is active (PvE note, don't make Enraged Defense kill threat) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveandDieinLA Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 ^This. If you want us to tank, let us tank by having our defences applicable against more than 30% of all attacks used in PvP. For Chrissakes, pure DPS classes like snipers/maras get amazing defensive CD's, and we're getting torn apart by Force/Tech attacks. Force attacks are energy attacks which get mitigated by armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveandDieinLA Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 This entire quote doesn't make any sense. You have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe you should learn to read? I think its pretty clear. Here let me break it down for you in terms you will understand. DPS speced Juggs use soresu form as a crutch, just like sins currenty do, and PTs used to. Im all for Bioware taking that crutch away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zbus Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Force attacks are energy attacks which get mitigated by armor. Yes but his shields and defense stats do not effect it. And see thats the point everyone has armor and the diffrence between heavy or light armor is so small that it really does not matter. Hence we get tanks in DPS gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKfourtyseven Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) Why, Bioware? Why? Our crappy low damage now will be laughable crap in PVP. Oh, wait, all that changes with increasing threat generation probably pretty good for PVE, but for PVP Guardian tanks -6% of all melee damage looks strong nerf. Bioware, why you so hate classic looks single-lightsaber jedi knights? The honest answer? because people like me were able to run DPS specs, in tanks stance and hit 53% damage reduction due to armour, while keeping that 6% boost, never having focus issues and smacking people for 5k crits with impunity while in tank stance. Its a sad nerf if you are tank spec and run in tank stance, but the only other way to fix this issue would be to move tank stance higher up the tank tree, which would destroy low levels progression. Edited June 8, 2012 by AKfourtyseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveandDieinLA Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Yes but his shields and defense stats do not effect it. And see thats the point everyone has armor and the diffrence between heavy or light armor is so small that it really does not matter. Hence we get tanks in DPS gear. In soresu form you get 50 - 55% passive mitigation. That's 30% more than medium armor. 30% is not a small difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JidaiGeki Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 wat /5char Not solely CD's, but marksmen get 'siege bunker' to reduce AOE damage by 60%, and engineers can talent to both significantly boost their shield probe's power and reduce its CD instantly upon activation of EMP discharge, as well as talenting a flat damage reduction when in cover and reducing the CD of ballistic shields (an amazing AOE defensive CD). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zbus Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Maybe you should learn to read? I think its pretty clear. Here let me break it down for you in terms you will understand. DPS speced Juggs use soresu form as a crutch, just like sins currenty do, and PTs used to. Im all for Bioware taking that crutch away. No one started a tank at first to be a DPS class most wanted to tank in pvp and pve. But the reality is the stats dont work. Blame the player if that makes you feel better call it a crutch but what you are seeing in these specs is a result of the reality of the current game play. That goes for all tanks not just guardians or jugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozed Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Force attacks are energy attacks which get mitigated by armor. Force, tech, ranged, and melee are attack types, only ranged and melee can be shielded or defended against Kinetic, energy, internal, and elemental are damage types, only kinetic and energy are mitigated by armor. For example, some sage abilities are force attack types that do kinetic damage - these cannot be shielded or defended, but they are mitigated by armor. So 50% damage reduction from armor only applies to two of the four damage types in the game, energy and kinetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKfourtyseven Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) In soresu form you get 50 - 55% passive mitigation. That's 30% more than medium armor. 30% is not a small difference. True. The real issue is something the devs still have yet to tackle. DPS stance heavy armour only puts you at 35% reduction, while a medium armour knight is only going to be what, 5% behind you? Im all for differentiating the stances but the raw reduction between DPS heavy and the medium AC needs to be wider. All that being said, this change does not help the fact that the heavy tank Jedi/Sith still has the lowest damage output. Edited June 8, 2012 by AKfourtyseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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