best PvE build for Denova?

[oredith]

First off, i don't play a sniper, but I raid lead a casual group of friends.

 

we have been clearing EC SM pretty effortlessly in the last month, but last week, we had 2 snipers in the raid, and our dps was to say - horrendous.

 

we got to firebrand and stormcaller, and despite putting 3 ranged dps (2 snipers and 1 merc, the merc has been there for most of the other kills, so i'm pretty sure he's not a problem) the firebrand side only managed to be marginally (5%) faster than the stormcaller side (with one marauder).

 

this has me pretty confused since I hear snipers are suppose to have pretty good dmg now? i guess my question is:

 

1. DO snipers have competitive dmg output now?
   
2. is there a "best" spec for Denova? and if so, what spec?
   
3. is there a good place to read up on the rotation priority with the spec?

 

thanks

[Astoncam]

Read: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-Marksmanship-Sniper-Sharpshooter-Gunslinger-Compendium

 

Snipers/Gunslinger Marauders/Sentinels should be 1st or 2nd in damage outpout in Denova

[Shecrazy]

Lethality is the highest single target sustained dmg, but all 3 specs are close enough that you could realistically float any of them through a raid.

 

Your 3 rdps just aren't very good at their class, they probably can't comprehend the learning curve that is energy management and spend half the time auto attacking or something.

[oredith]

Read: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-Marksmanship-Sniper-Sharpshooter-Gunslinger-Compendium

 

Snipers/Gunslinger Marauders/Sentinels should be 1st or 2nd in damage outpout in Denova

i've skimmed most of that, but wanted to ask the question anyways because I wasn't sure if the information is up to date, because the specs talked about is mostly MM, or MM/Eng, but I hear people talking about Lethality like below:

Lethality is the highest single target sustained dmg, but all 3 specs are close enough that you could realistically float any of them through a raid.

 

Your 3 rdps just aren't very good at their class, they probably can't comprehend the learning curve that is energy management and spend half the time auto attacking or something.

having never played it, i can't really comment on it. is it a reduced regen rate just like BH/Commando heat/ammo?

[Synavix]

The biggest problem I've seen with low DPS players is either 1) they're just bad and/or hopeless with an MMO style game, in which case there is nothing you can do or 2) they don't understand the energy regen. It is a lot like BH regen.

 

Snipers should definitely be one of the highest DPS classes in your raid, easily competitive with any other class. In fact, the Merc in your group should probably be significantly lower than the rest of the group if all are played correctly.

 

To answer your question about what the "best" PvE build is...there really isn't a best answer for that. All three specs are pretty comparative and viable, although you see a lot fewer people going Eng. Lethality has a higher DPS potential on many fights, but at the same time MM has a far easier rotation and superior target switching on fights like Kaphess and will pull roughly equal or possibly better DPS depending on playstyle and how many armor debuffs are present.

 

The above link should be up-to-date and is a very good source of information. I would recommend that if your players are having some trouble to try a simple MM build because even with a slightly sloppy rotation their DPS will be fairly decent as long as they learn to maintain their energy and use their basic shot when too near/below 60 energy.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Synavix

[Shecrazy]

Energy works in reverse of heat, you have 100% and you never want to go under 60% (not 60 energy, for snipers this turns out to be 67 energy since we have 110 energy) unless you intend to and have adrenaline probe up to pop you back over 60%.

 

The problem with snipers vs mercs is that you can be a brain dead merc and never go over 40% heat with how forgiving their rotation is, this is not true of snipers. If I mess up my rotation once I typically have to auto attack 2-3 times to make up for it. If someone isn't very good at the class and messes up their rotation dozens of times during a fight...

 

Yeah.

 

As a lethality sniper I am top dps in my raid atm, and everyone in my raid is at least pulling 1500 dps. Snipers are thee highest dps class in the game alongside marauders, There is no combination of 3 classes you could pit against any 1 class and have them do similar or less dmg than 1 person on the other side, so its your players.

[pureeffinmetal]

I personally feel Marksmen is the best dps specc a Sniper can run. But it appears as though its far easier for most people to do more damage with Lethality.

 

I compare it with Lightning and Madness Sorcs. Madness is easier, but (at least in Denova) you won't out DPS my Lightning Sorc.

[oredith]

can someone link a lethality build for me?

 

on a more personal note, is the dps potential between a sniper and an operative lethality AC pretty big? i am tempted to level one myself, but I kinda want an operative instead, so that I can heal if need be - now that they made merc healing as boring as possible.

[chuixupu]

i've skimmed most of that, but wanted to ask the question anyways because I wasn't sure if the information is up to date, because the specs talked about is mostly MM, or MM/Eng, but I hear people talking about Lethality like below:

 

There is a Lethality compendium on that site too http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-The-1-2-Lethality-Sniper-Dirty-Fighting-Gunslinger-Compendium

 

And yes it is up to date.

 

I personally am not a big fan of Lethality, even if it is pulling the best numbers. There is no reason why you can't pull good numbers in any spec. Be sure you're stacking the best stats for your spec and you're prioritizing the right abilities.

[jolstar]

can someone link a lethality build for me?

 

on a more personal note, is the dps potential between a sniper and an operative lethality AC pretty big? i am tempted to level one myself, but I kinda want an operative instead, so that I can heal if need be - now that they made merc healing as boring as possible.

 

im gonna guess from context that the snipers you mentioned are not lethality. are they marksmen?

 

one thing you may want to look at if you have access to combat logs is the %dmg done by each player. raw dps can sometimes be misleading due to boss mechanics that force a decrease in dps compared to, say, a dummy. you should be able to compare dps to dps on the same boss fight, but between boss fights that number could vary so i like to use the %dmg.

 

one thing about that fight in particular is the defensive systems and movement/adds can cause a big drop in dps. for lethality spec, i can do 300ish dps (wo WB and not counting crit/surge just tooltip numbers) as long as i keep my dots up on the boss, even while im in the bubble killing the adds. a marksmen isnt goin to be able continue damage on the boss while he is killing adds.

 

of course, lethality has its downsides. if i cant aoe i cant use corrosive grenade and so my cull damage is greatly reduced. also if i have to switch targets there is a little bit of a 'setup' where i have to throw on my dots (though for stuff like mindtraps and such i can just use SoS/ambush/ep/takedown and its not an issue.

[adezero]

If there was dual spec I would be SS for the first three fights in hard-mode denova. and maybe lethality for kephess. The phase with the trandoshian packs wouldn't be that great as lethality though.

[Ahlad]

I just did 16 man HM EC and Nightmare Pilgrim last night with my guild and I switched from Marksman to Engineering just to try Engineering out.

 

I found that Engineering is much harder to use on 1.2 encounters than Marksman and possibly Lethality because of the reflection mechanics in a lot of the bosses.

 

Nightmare Pilgrim, Toth and Zorn, and Kephiss all have abilities that reflect damage to the user so if you using plasma probe you might get hit back by the reflection and its basically an insta-death because it isn't a DoT that is on the mob, rather it is on an area. Corrosive grenade doesn't have this problem because it ticks on the mob.

 

This is what happened to me on those encounters.

 

NP: Plasma Probe was up on the nightmare pilgrim with about 5 seconds left, shield goes up, and i go down.

Toth/Zorn: I move a little closer so that i can place the probe on Zorn because range is really weird when placing aoe's, another dps pulls aggro and i get in range of the debuff. I get hit, plasma probe kills me.

Kephiss: Placed plasma probe next to the robot thing, shield mob pops and isn't pulled away correctly and i get it by the reflection and go down.

 

These same troubles also apply to orbital strike but orbital strike is much easier to manage because it is on a longer cool down and it is on a much shorter duration than plasma probe. So imagine having both up at one time and getting reflected on, insta death.

 

Bottom Line, 1.2 Bosses + Engineering = not fun

[swifferdude]

marskman- hits single targets the hardest, arguably most energy efficient, highest burst, probs the best pve spec imo

 

engineer- aoe dots, focuses on alot of aoe, would be tied for energy efficiency with marksman, makes a good hybrid spec for pve with MMs, makes them even more energy efficient.

 

lethality- single target dots, poison dots focused, worst energy efficiency, probably the best pvp spec, not so much for pve... imo

 

so, ya... thts what I think

Edited May 31, 2012 by swifferdude

[HarakiriTiger]

marskman- hits single targets the hardest, arguably most energy efficient, highest burst, probs the best pve spec imo

 

engineer- aoe dots, focuses on alot of aoe, would be tied for energy efficiency with marksman, makes a good hybrid spec for pve with MMs, makes them even more energy efficient.

 

lethality- single target dots, poison dots focused, worst energy efficiency, probably the best pvp spec, not so much for pve... imo

 

so, ya... thts what I think

 

MM is the highest BURST spec, but by far not the highest sustained damage spec. To be a full Marksman, it requires you to skill so much useless crap - like ballstic dampeners or cover screen - which are great for survivability in PvP but absolutely not needed in PvE as a ranged DD.

 

Lethality on the other hand is "nice" in PvP but since you have to apply CD, CG and WB on your targets to go for a good Cull, switching targets is a pain and costs far too much energy. Thus - in contrary to most popular believes - Lethality is less viable in PvP but more viable in PvE as you don't have to change targets that much. For trash, which occasionally spawns in Bossfights, you can still use Cull with the Dart only, some Snipes or SoS.

[BongoFrenzy]

marskman- hits single targets the hardest, arguably most energy efficient, highest burst, probs the best pve spec imo

 

engineer- aoe dots, focuses on alot of aoe, would be tied for energy efficiency with marksman, makes a good hybrid spec for pve with MMs, makes them even more energy efficient.

 

lethality- single target dots, poison dots focused, worst energy efficiency, probably the best pvp spec, not so much for pve... imo

 

so, ya... thts what I think

 

Energy management when using Lethality is no problem at all, and from Ops dummy tests I can verify that it has the best sustained damage. As for burst, MM is probably the best, but TA + Power Relic followed by Cull, SoS, Explosive Probe, Ambush and then another Cull is a rather sweet burst, so don't underestimate Lethality's burst capabilities.

[Synavix]

Operation level test dummies will favor Lethality over Marksman because there is a lack of armor debuffs. Even with a sloppy rotation you will almost always see higher numbers, but this isn't the case in an actual Op ssetting where you will (generally) have multiple debuffs applied.

 

As far as burst damage, it really depends what you're talking about. On a phase like the Kaphess walker or Soa shielding where you can apply dots before the actual burn phase begins Lethality can easily be competitive or better. I definitely found it better on Fabricator because as MM you won't have your cooldowns up for every burn, same with Soa shields. However if timed correctly you should have them up for every Kaphess walker burn, and MM is easily better for bombers and Trandoshian Warriors.

[Kryogenique]

Since there doesn't seem to be anyone posting the best spec (in their opinion) I'll give you this.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#400bzZbfZG0rkrMGdhR.1

 

It's the build I use for running all Ops. The points in Flash Powder and Hold Your Ground can be switched/moved to whatever suits your sniper' playstyle.

 

As for rotation/tactics it revolves around:

Corrosive Dart > Corrosive Grenade > Weakening Blast > Cull

 

In the 9 second CD for cull, they should be alternating their GCDs between Ambush, Series of Shots, Laze + Sniper, Explosive Probe (with an auto attack every now and then to balance energy).

Aim to keep shatter shot up at all times, Orbital strike off CD.

 

Everytime 'Target Acquired' is off CD, burst some energy to ~50, and use it. (IF they have the PvE set bonus for Field tech gear)

Don't be afraid to use all your energy, just make sure you have Adrenaline Probe ready to bring you back up to 60 energy.

 

 

As for specifically EC, as long as your sniper runs out at the 'jump' on Toth & Zorn, you should have no problems.

If the sniper gets the Fearfull debuff, their DoTs will kill them pretty quickly, so incredibly important to run out each time the jump happens.

[oredith]

is the dps potential between a sniper and an operative lethality AC pretty big? i am tempted to level one myself, but I kinda want an operative instead, so that I can heal if need be

can anyone answer this one for me?

[Kryogenique]

can anyone answer this one for me?

 

Lethality for Ops is heavily reliant on TA procs, which invovles getting into melee range, which defeats the point tbh.

If you just want to play the lethalty spec, do it on the sniper.

[oredith]

Lethality for Ops is heavily reliant on TA procs, which invovles getting into melee range, which defeats the point tbh.

If you just want to play the lethalty spec, do it on the sniper.

 

ahhh.. thanks.

 

guildie was not able to articulate it better than "i think you have to be closer as op".. makes sense..

[Aurelius]

I play 23/16/02 while raiding and found it to be pretty fun. Pre-1.2 I ran full MM. After MM tree changes I might switch back to full MM. I have no issues with the way we run Denova and here's my last parse from HM: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/b330a8ab-b886-47c8-80c0-52f4fe3b2e50/overview#d=0,b=1

 

Feel free to dig around. Our DPS is Mara, Assass, Sorc and Sniper. If your sniper's know what their doing they should be fine in any spec. I used to run with a leth Sniper and we had similar DPS.

 

-Bit

Edited May 31, 2012 by Aurelius

[BambulaGTS]

Particullary on tanks you are forced to constantlly move as a sniper: avoiding lightning AoE domes, avoiding yellow mark rocket, moving onto shield dome and out dome when tank channeling.

 

And moving as a sniper is not very good for dps output.

[Kryogenique]

Particullary on tanks you are forced to constantlly move as a sniper: avoiding lightning AoE domes, avoiding yellow mark rocket, moving onto shield dome and out dome when tank channeling.

 

And moving as a sniper is not very good for dps output.

 

Stand on the tank while DPSing.

Then you only need to run into the dome, not avoid all the lightning and AoE, have one player (we had operative healer) stay off the tanks, so only he has to keep moving.

[Aurelius]

Stand on the tank while DPSing.

Then you only need to run into the dome, not avoid all the lightning and AoE, have one player (we had operative healer) stay off the tanks, so only he has to keep moving.

 

^ This is how we do tanks. We have our Firebrand healer and a Sorc DPS on the ground taking the Yellow targets, in HM they can cleanse themselves. If you look at my parse, I pulled 1184 DPS. Crazy Mara put up 1581, but my DPS is on par with the Sorc DPS and the Assassin DPS.

[chuixupu]

Yeah, we put just one person on the ground for FB/SC, whoever volunteers. Lately it's been the Merc, he seems to do fine running around and shooting. I've done it before too and I actually thought it was kind of fun.