Powertech Pyrotech deserve the HUGE nerf

[dcgregorya]

1. Ambush 2.5 second cast. 1.5 with proc 15 second cooldown

2. Railshot instant cast usable every 6 seconds with proc and 15% extra crit chance from set bonus

Tell me which one is better?

 

3. You cant do 10k damage with Master Strike against anyone with decent gear lol. 27 Second cooldown talent. 3 Second channel that can be interupt in numerous ways with different CC and its only useable in melee range.

4. Rail shot 30m range, 6 second cooldown with proc, 15% extra crit chance.

Lets assume for a second Master strike does do 10k in 3 seconds on a 27 second cooldown.

If you do a Railshot every 6 seconds for 27 seconds with 4.5k Railshots you do real 18k damage from range.

 

Which is better?

 

Ambush is 1.5 seconds for anyone that uses it in their normal rotation. Let's put it this way, if I really felt like PT's could do that sort of damage consistently, I'd be right up here saying they need to be nerfed. One of my level 50 battlemaster chars is an assault spec vanguard and while he does good damage he never does more damage single target than my gunslinger or sentinel does. I think these consistent 4k HIB/rail shots are mostly myths/outliers to be quite honest with you.

[Gidoru]

Ambush is 1.5 seconds for anyone that uses it in their normal rotation. Let's put it this way, if I really felt like PT's could do that sort of damage consistently, I'd be right up here saying they need to be nerfed. One of my level 50 battlemaster chars is an assault spec vanguard and while he does good damage he never does more damage single target than my gunslinger or sentinel does. I think these consistent 4k HIB/rail shots are mostly myths/outliers to be quite honest with you.

 

No offense, but either you arent playing it right or havent gear it properly(remodding).

4k+ Railshots are a reality and happen all the time.

 

When i taunt a Powertech and get 10k damage mitigated medal from him alone for the duration of the taunt, you know something is wrong.

When my full BM Guardian alt gets dropped to 40% in the first 4 of a fight agaisnt a Powertech. you know something is wrong.

 

But ofcourse every Powertech will come running in here claiming its not true because they want to think they are amazing at this game.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Gidoru

[Payneintherear]

I do feel bad for sorcs, with the new TTKs they really do get the short end of the stick.

 

Couldn't most classes do this to a sorc though? I'm pretty sure my sniper (granted, it's a lower level bracket) could probably drop a sorc in around 7 seconds if he had an adrenal and got the RNG that the pyro did in that log. Seems to me that most single target burst classes could do that. Maybe 1 extra global.

 

Am I wrong?

 

*edit*

Just caught up and realized you were already discussing that question, lawl. As you were!

 

You probably could do that in the lower level bracket on your sniper. People also wear different gear in the lower brackets and they have half the HPs of what that PT deals to the Sorc, before the Sorc dies.

 

No other class could ever dish out that kind of damage.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Payneintherear

[The_Bucket]

You think 24k is bad? Try having guard on someone while they are getting smooshed down by 2 PT's and the yourself getting smooshed by 2 more PT's in the same WZ. It's like your wearing jelly armor. Since Guardians can't negate any sort of "yellow dmg" .

 

Of course.. This could be a flaw on the Guardian side more then PT's being OP.. If only tanks had a way to metigate dmg..

[ColonelBurton]

1. Ambush 2.5 second cast. 1.5 with proc 15 second cooldown

2. Railshot instant cast usable every 6 seconds with proc and 15% extra crit chance from set bonus

Tell me which one is better?

 

3. You cant do 10k damage with Master Strike against anyone with decent gear lol. 27 Second cooldown talent. 3 Second channel that can be interupt in numerous ways with different CC and its only useable in melee range.

4. Rail shot 30m range, 6 second cooldown with proc, 15% extra crit chance.

Lets assume for a second Master strike does do 10k in 3 seconds on a 27 second cooldown.

If you do a Railshot every 6 seconds for 27 seconds with 4.5k Railshots you do real 18k damage from range.

 

Which is better?

Rail shot dont have coldown 6sec but 15sec.6sec is only change with PPA but itsCANT proc it all time.its have only good change on RP but its have cd 9sec or low on FB.dont forget its dont proc all time and you cant spam fb becouse heat.Heat is worst mechanic in game dont forget on it><.If you are damn lucky you can shot RS every 10sec +/- but no way all time. And 2/5 RS miss target and if hit its give 1500 dmg.3000-4000 you see only rare.(r+ef+a have cooldown and most time people are not naked in wz)

 

And still ambush>rs

ms>rs

Its better give 10k dmg in 3sec then avarage 6000in 30sec

[Scoobings]

With regards to Ambush vs Railshot:

 

The 1.5 second cast time on Ambush means that the sniper can't move during that 1.5 seconds, and there's a brief window to apply a stun to interrupt it... it doesn't mean that railshot is more damaging though because of GCD.

 

Railshot requires them to be on fire... Ambush needs to be set-up with a snipe

 

Basically, what it boils down to is railshot has higher mobility and ignores armor while Ambush hits for a little bit harder in general.

 

I'd say you're right, and Railshot is better than Ambush but at the end of the day it's just one move. Snipers still have the better survivability, and utility at the end of the day while PTs Have slightly higher mobility and do way better damage on tanks.

 

Equal but different classes are equal but different. Snipers are capable of this exact burst on a target if they are granted the gift of RNG.

 

I can't speak to any of the other classes. I've seen high burst, but never actually played one, or with a good one, as much as I have sniper.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Scoobings

[Vodrin]

 

No other class could ever dish out that kind of damage.

 

Have you tested that assumption? You did a great job of showing that when the stars align you can get some pretty ridiculous damage numbers. But have you tried to see what is possible with other classes? I'm asking because I suspect a rage jug, a well setup marauder, and maybe an op, sin, or sniper could do something similar under the correct circumstances (for the first two classes I would have them stack full rage before starting the test).

Edited May 31, 2012 by Vodrin

[ColonelBurton]

No offense, but either you arent playing it right or havent gear it properly(remodding).

4k+ Railshots are a reality and happen all the time.

 

When i taunt a Powertech and get 10k damage mitigated medal from him alone for the duration of the taunt, you know something is wrong.

When my full BM Guardian alt gets dropped to 40% in the first 4 of a fight agaisnt a Powertech. you know something is wrong.

 

But ofcourse every Powertech will come running in here claiming its not true because they want to think they are amazing at this game.

Just btw why no one play PT then?I play on tofn and i see pt rarery.Oh i know why heat suck,worst survive abilyty in game,no defence skill,no skill for escapy or charge for enemy.avarage dmg.

4k+ only hapen from PT in full WH+a+ef too target in green lvl 30 item.(For examply sentinel in this situation hit 12k+)

IF you lost with guarding again pt L2P

Edited May 31, 2012 by ColonelBurton

[Scoobings]

You probably could do that in the lower level bracket on your sniper. People also wear different gear in the lower brackets and they have half the HPs of what that PT deals to the Sorc, before the Sorc dies.

 

No other class could ever dish out that kind of damage.

 

You're right, I'm in an awkward position of not having first hand information with a geared level 50 sniper. I have played with one in my old guild quite a bit though who was a beast, and he used to brag about how fast he could drop sorcs all the time. I also have my character at level 40... where people wear different gear... yes... but through bolster it's kept relatively close together.

 

Snipers have massive burst potential. between explosive probe, ambush, and follow through alone. That damage has some set-up to it, but it's huge damage coming through in one global.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Scoobings

[MobiusZero]

With regards to Ambush vs Railshot:

 

The 1.5 second cast time on Ambush means that the sniper can't move during that 1.5 seconds, and there's a brief window to apply a stun to interrupt it... it doesn't mean that railshot is more damaging though because of GCD.

 

Railshot requires them to be on fire... Ambush needs to be set-up with a snipe

 

And snipe also has a cast time (and it also can be interrupted.). Flame burst is instant.

 

Equal but different classes are equal but different. Snipers are capable of this exact burst on a target if they are granted the gift of RNG.

 

I can't speak to any of the other classes. I've seen high burst, but never actually played one, or with a good one, as much as I have sniper.

 

Snipers are probably my least feared class in PvP. All I have to do is LoS them and they are useless. And they are one of the easiest classes to solo, no matter how skilled they are (unless you are bad, and charge them in the open like an idiot.).

 

Just btw why no one play PT then?I play on tofn and i see pt rarery.Oh i know why heat suck,worst survive abilyty in game,no defence skill,no skill for escapy or charge for enemy.avarage dmg.

 

Wow, that's quite a lot of false statements packed into that short paragraph.

 

I don't know about your server, but on mine, PT's are FoTM just like Maras.

 

And worst survivability? I'd say that medal goes to Sorcs or Operatives, both of which can't get the kind of burst damage Pyro's do, to make up for their squishiness. And how does heat suck any worse than energy? It works exactly the same. Also, you get 2 defensive cooldowns as Pyro, FYI, both with reduced cooldowns.

 

And you don't need to charge an enemy when you can keep them snared with ease, or grapple them. The snare also doubles as a kiting/escape ability (and don't forget Degauss, for an even easier time kiting.).. And your 2 stuns can also be used to escape. Also, because all of your abilities are instant, you never have to stop moving to deal damage, and never have to be in melee range.

Edited May 31, 2012 by MobiusZero

[SneiK]

No offense, but either you arent playing it right or havent gear it properly(remodding).

4k+ Railshots are a reality and happen all the time.

 

When i taunt a Powertech and get 10k damage mitigated medal from him alone for the duration of the taunt, you know something is wrong.

When my full BM Guardian alt gets dropped to 40% in the first 4 of a fight agaisnt a Powertech. you know something is wrong.

 

But ofcourse every Powertech will come running in here claiming its not true because they want to think they are amazing at this game.

 

Simply, a lie. A taunt gives what, -30% dmg? So 0,3x >= 10k, x >= 33 333 dmg.

 

This guy is saying that a Pyrotech can put out close to/or above 34k dmg in 6 seconds? If BW ****s Pyro up because of these guys, it's gona be the best joke ever.

 

Best case scenario that a Pyro can do in 6 secs pretty much:

TD->Rail->RP->Rail NOTE: TARGET HAS A RUNNING DOT ALREADY

Now if all crits, a chance that's around 0,25^4 = 0,3 % (that's less than 1 every 300 times)

PLUS the RP has to proc, so 0,3 % * 0.6 = 0,18 (that's less than 1 every 500 times)

 

The dmg would add up to:

2500k->3500k->2000k->3500k = 11 500 DMG EVERY 500 TIMES!!!!

 

With all consumables/buffs up, this would add up to around 13 500 DMG. And crit chance best case scenario could be around 0,6^4 * 0,6 = 8 %

 

Now go look at some smash crits, take into account that a Pyro is killed in that 6 seconds easily, and remember that something like mara/sin has dmg immunities close to that duration but can still do quite a lot of dmg, not to mention the team buffs and the ability to do OBJECTIVES.

 

So how does Pyro do the dmg? Well, mostly because he can keep his dps good more often than other classes. If we take a 300k match, and count required DPS in 15 min match -> 300k / 900 secs = 333,3 DPS which is not even that much, but a pyro left alone can keep up with that easily. Pyro does not have the best burst, but if left alone, it has SUSTAINED BURST and will hurt you.

 

Just L2P.

Edited May 31, 2012 by SneiK

[Scoobings]

And snipe also has a cast time (and it also can be interrupted.). Flame burst is instant.

 

 

 

Snipers are probably my least feared class in PvP. All I have to do is LoS them and they are useless. And they are one of the easiest classes to solo, no matter how skilled they are (unless you are bad, and charge them in the open like an idiot.).

 

 

 

Wow, that's quite a lot of false statements packed into that short paragraph.

 

I don't know about your server, but on mine, PT's are FoTM just like Maras.

 

And worst survivability? I'd say that medal goes to Sorcs or Operatives, both of which can't get the kind of burst damage Pyro's do, to make up for their squishiness. And how does heat suck any worse than energy? It works exactly the same. Also, you get 2 defensive cooldowns as Pyro, FYI, both with reduced cooldowns.

 

And you don't need to charge an enemy when you can keep them snared with ease, or grapple them. The snare also doubles as a kiting/escape ability (and don't forget Degauss, for an even easier time kiting.).. And your 2 stuns can also be used to escape. Also, because all of your abilities are instant, you never have to stop moving to deal damage, and never have to be in melee range.

 

Snipe is actually instant if specced into the burst (Marksman) tree (You get one instant cast snipe every time you enter cover, 6 second ICD).

 

That's true snipers can't follow you around, but if the sniper has pushed you off the objective, or forced you to hide in a corner mission accomplished no? I'll grant you it's not as good as killing the target but it's still effective. If you're afraid to go out in the open because of a sniper, him forcing you into poor positioning can be just as detrimental to the team as killing you and he's able to keep himself at longer range and out of easily focus-fireable danger.

 

I'm not saying snipers are better than PTs but I strongly disagree that Snipers are worse than PTs in any capacity. It's been my experience (sub 50 on my sniper, and at top-level Warhero organized team on team play with a sniper guildy) that it's just not the case.

 

Maybe I'll be proved wrong when server merges finally happen, who knows.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Scoobings

[Frunzenshnapp]

Just had a very fun wz agains 4 pyro pt's, 3 shadow tanks and a mercenary healer. haven't seen any of this pt's before. Each did about 500k dps. That's all the metrics i need. Reminds me of agent Smith populating the matrix. Come on people. There is definitely something wrong with that class...

[SneiK]

Just had a very fun wz agains 4 pyro pt's, 3 shadow tanks and a mercenary healer. haven't seen any of this pt's before. Each did about 500k dps. That's all the metrics i need. Reminds me of agent Smith populating the matrix. Come on people. There is definitely something wrong with that class...

 

500k DPS? woah. So that's 900 * 500 000 DMG in a 15 min match, a Pyro did 4,5 BILLION DMG?!?!?!

 

...Why don't you learn the difference between DPS and DMG. And since when did DMG = WIN?

 

What warzone was this? Most warzones, a mix of 4 mara/juggs would **** that team.

 

Your post is seriously lacking, please think about what you write before writing it.

Edited May 31, 2012 by SneiK

[MobiusZero]

Snipe is actually instant if specced into the burst (Marksman) tree (You get one instant cast snipe every time you enter cover, 6 second ICD).

 

Yes, because we all know that Marksman is the best PvP tree.

 

That's true snipers can't follow you around, but if the sniper has pushed you off the objective, or forced you to hide in a corner mission accomplished no? I'll grant you it's not as good as killing the target but it's still effective. If you're afraid to go out in the open because of a sniper, him forcing you into poor positioning can be just as detrimental to the team as killing you and he's able to keep himself at longer range and out of easily focus-fireable danger.

 

I don't typically just "hide in a corner." A sniper is not going to keep tabs on me, and shoot at me the second I re-enter his LoS range (often behind or beside him.).

 

The basic point being, that the sniper can never fight me on his terms. He is forced to play by mine.

 

A PT, on the other hand, can simply chase me around the corner, grapple me, etc..

[Retro_Chrome]

again with everyone talkign about the reactive shield cooldown reducer, if a vanguard actualy takes this over other talents then hes new to the spec or doesnt understand the benefits you get from other talents... not a single vanguard actually takes this talent for more than a few matches before they realise you lose to much to get this one ability.

[Scoobings]

Yes, because we all know that Marksman is the best PvP tree.

 

 

 

I don't typically just "hide in a corner." A sniper is not going to keep tabs on me, and shoot at me the second I re-enter his LoS range (often behind or beside him.).

 

The basic point being, that the sniper can never fight me on his terms. He is forced to play by mine.

 

A PT, on the other hand, can simply chase me around the corner, grapple me, etc..

 

Marksman is good for Burst... Also, we're discussing the burst potential on ambush and it being a 1.5 second cast right? That's Marksman.

 

Marks is pretty poor for killing tanks, but it shreads healers and DPS and that's what snipers are good at. I've never played with a lethality sniper so I don't know what to tell you, I'm speaking to my experience.

 

A sniper with good situational awareness is capable of keeping tabs on multiple targets at once... If I've forced a target to go hide in cover and he comes out later, unless I've got a higher priority target I switch back. There's no reason not to, they aren't reliant on debuffs on the other target to do their damage. Their combo is based on internal buffing.

 

Pyros have the mobility, true that. It's a perk of theirs. That doesn't mean that snipers aren't capable of moving to follow up though, especially if marks, and it doesn't mean that you can't kite pyros. There's a lot going on in team games and Kills =/= Wins. It's about what you accomplish. A sniper is just as valuable as a PT.

[Varicite]

Just had a very fun wz agains 4 pyro pt's, 3 shadow tanks and a mercenary healer. haven't seen any of this pt's before. Each did about 500k dps. That's all the metrics i need. Reminds me of agent Smith populating the matrix. Come on people. There is definitely something wrong with that class...

 

What was on YOUR team, if 4 different enemy players were able to do 500k damage each?

 

I know you don't mean 500k dps, because that is impossible in this game. : )

 

In my experience, you don't get 500k damage unless you aren't killing your targets quickly, or your opponents are so undergeared that you have a steady stream of opponents being fed to you from the spawn point.

[MobiusZero]

again with everyone talkign about the reactive shield cooldown reducer, if a vanguard actualy takes this over other talents then hes new to the spec or doesnt understand the benefits you get from other talents... not a single vanguard actually takes this talent for more than a few matches before they realise you lose to much to get this one ability.

 

I see. So you're basically telling me that your survivability is not such a problem after all, since you have no need to spec to improve it.

[MobiusZero]

Marksman is good for Burst... Also, we're discussing the burst potential on ambush and it being a 1.5 second cast right? That's Marksman.

 

Marks is pretty poor for killing tanks, but it shreads healers and DPS and that's what snipers are good at. I've never played with a lethality sniper so I don't know what to tell you, I'm speaking to my experience.

 

It's common knowledge that Marksman is the worst PvP spec. Almost everyone worth a grain of salt in a WZ, goes Engineering or Lethality.

[Scoobings]

I see. So you're basically telling me that your survivability is not such a problem after all, since you have no need to spec to improve it.

 

The 30 seconds (if you're lucky) off of energy shield isn't enough to make it worth it, and if you DO pick that talent up you don't get these mega crazy railshot crits everyone is talking about. As people have been saying, you gain damage at the expense of survivability.

 

It's one of the reasons I'm actually not a huge fan of the pyrotech spec. Too little mobility, too little utility, too little survivability. In my opinion, it's not worth the trade-off.

[Scoobings]

It's common knowledge that Marksman is the worst PvP spec. Almost everyone worth a grain of salt in a WZ, goes Engineering or Lethality.

 

I don't know what to tell you, that's the spec they were talking about with ambush. I was just correcting your statement when you said snipe had a cast time. In the framing of that conversation, it doesn't.

[xBloodcrazed]

No offense, but either you arent playing it right or havent gear it properly(remodding).

4k+ Railshots are a reality and happen all the time.

 

When i taunt a Powertech and get 10k damage mitigated medal from him alone for the duration of the taunt, you know something is wrong.

When my full BM Guardian alt gets dropped to 40% in the first 4 of a fight agaisnt a Powertech. you know something is wrong.

 

But ofcourse every Powertech will come running in here claiming its not true because they want to think they are amazing at this game.

 

Sure if everyone has 1600 aim, 500 bonus dmg, and 78% surge, these are my stats and my rail are 3.7-4.1. (3.4k vs tanks).Its more likely that the majority of players are anywhere from 2.5-3.3k

 

and im not sure how protection is calculated however if it only counts the difference, offhand i think its 30% then you're telling me that this powertech did over 30k damage in 6 seconds?

 

its convenient to count the time that your guardian got crit back to back but not the time where you dodge the first rail shot and shielded the second non crit for 700 dmg. Chances are higher that any 2 railshots will not crit/dodge/shielded then both of them critting.

[Archaar]

Someone in this thread said powertechs were not easy to play, so I rolled one, level 15 at the moment and it is by far the easiest of all the AC's I have played so far. It also gives me the biggest return for the least skill investment, even at this level I am getting 220k - 270k (Highest so far is 295k) damage in warzones and racking up kills. I can see why people are drawn to it, without being insulting (lol) it's an easymode class, I take down level 40+ targets all the time.

 

The only class that gives me trouble is a good scoundrel who get's a stealth opener on me or another PT/Vanguard. I just bait people to follow me around pillars etc, which they do because I'm level 14 and I burst them down some mara's can be trouble, but I don't have my slow yet, once I do I think it will be even easier to melt them.

 

Heat management can be a problem though no heat = no burst = death....sometimes.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Archaar

[Jarfunkz]

Because none of his abilities mitigate that damage at all?

The clear point of this entire thread is that Powertechs do more damage than they should and are thus overpowered.

 

Whether the Sorc is moving or not the Powertech is still doing the same amount of damage to him. Whether the Sorc is using abilities or not still doesnt change the amount of damage a powertech is doing.

 

That is NOT true. A vg/pt can not do as much damage when they are 10m away from their target.