No Gear Check in the LFG tool?

[Bloodstealer]

What's strange is that no one saw this aspect coming.

 

Anyhow, not really that bothered. The "cool kids" can have their little "you're -3 on Endurance, you're out" clubs and I'll just continue to play with my guild, where skill beats gear everytime.

 

I foresee that echoing around the game...as I said ealrier in the thread... guild runs and channels will likely become more and more used.. thus negating any real community benefit the tools were supposed to bring in....

 

Though skill in SWTOR.. meeeh, gear driven content requirements dont tend to take as much Skill into consideration imo... even the worst Pug will succeed in most SWTOR content, as long as they are geared right... but time shall tell I guess

[Celebrus]

Rofl.

 

You want to further filter the 10 total people that will be online on your server by the time this rolls out by having a gear check in the LFG?

 

Is this serious?

[Mallorik]

What I find amusing is that players arguing for or against it dont seem to realise that facility is in game already, and being used for the very same reasons - so whether its included in the LFG or not... it will still be there to be used ....

 

So what's the fuss and why wasn't it an issue that was rife on these forums before yesterday..... or if they were, why repeat it again and again now we have a screeny onwhat it might look like/include...

 

What facility is in the game now and is being used for the very same reasons?

 

And after looking at the group finder in their video, they could very well have gear checks in place, teir 1 and teir 2 hm flashpoints are seperate check boxes, it could be that you cant click the t2 check box until you have a certain gearscore.

 

Yeah i totaly would not put it past bioware to forget about a gear check but theres nothing i see that tells me its not in.

[Bloodstealer]

Rofl.

 

You want to further filter the 10 total people that will be online on your server by the time this rolls out by having a gear check in the LFG?

 

Is this serious?

 

Well if you think you can get an Ops to run said content with that number on total.. then maybe you need to consider whether posting an LFM would be a fruitless task to begin with anyway....... but I hear what your saying....

[kilosoldier]

I even the worst Pug will succeed in most SWTOR content, as long as they are geared right... but time shall tell I guess

 

THis.

 

There are very few games the lean on the gear gating of content to decide success as much SWTOR. There really is not much "skill" involved in the mechanics as much as its the ability to absorb/heal through damage and avoid enrage timers. In fact, the lack of skill involved in end game is the thing that has driven many of the endgame raiding guilds out of the game.

 

Saying this game is "skill before gear" is pretty laughable to anyone who has seriously spent time running the endgame raids/instances.

[codyr]

I agree that the game itself sets limitations on players, excluding them from content.

 

I have absolutely no problem with that.

 

If a group of 3 players is looking for another player to run thru an HM FP, and that player meets all the criteria for entering the HM, has level-appropriate gear and meets the role looked for by the group, I have a problem if one or 2 of the players decide to exclude that player simply because he's wearing a blue earpiece instead of a purple one.

 

That's the garbage that goes on *right now* in the game without an adequate LFG system.. If the new LFG system includes a feature which automatically pops up the gear to the others in the group and allows them to boot him based on arbitrary elitist nonsense, I'll have a problem with it.

 

If there really is an issue with someone's gear that will cause problems for the whole group, then the group should discuss that with the person trying to join instead of just kicking him out without educating him or at least giving him a valid reason..

 

"I couldn't do EV storymode in green gear, so you can't come with us" is not a valid reason.

 

i'm starting to think you never actually played wow when it had the LFD tool. the LFD tool automatically excluded people who did not meet some minimum gear requirement, as determined by some formula that nobody really knew, but was easy to cheat by simply buying the wrong but high iLVL gear.

 

in that case, many people did defeat the gear gates and were 'carried' by people who actually worked their way up to that content. in many other cases, the entire party wiped repeatedly without knowing the real reason because in fact, skill does not beat out gear on every fight, especially fights that are designed to hit you for more health than you have or bosses that enrage if you don't defeat them fast enough. it was only with the use of tools like recount or gearscore that people would be clued into the fact that "hey what the heck? that hunter has greens on! we'll never beat jindo..."

 

you've already conceded that the game has gear gates. you accept that they're real and that they serve a function. and yet you still believe they should not be enforced. the only possible argument against player enforced gear-checking when the game doesn't do it automatically is that you think undergeared people should be carried. and that's fine to believe that, but what it will mean is that nobody who could actually do the carrying for you will ever use that tool.

 

this is exactly what happened to the LFD tool. TANKS. STOPPED. USING. IT. so blizzard gave them candy every time they did. and still, it wasn't enough for most tanks to waste their time trying with idiots who think gear gates don't apply to them. those are the 'bads'. people who think they're so special they can down the lich king at level 75. or think they can cleverly outmaneuver Foreman Crusher's fists with their leet pwnage skillz.

Edited May 22, 2012 by codyr

[Fuzzytoad]

Huh.. then you DONT understand WHY the gates are there

 

Are you happy to enter a Denova HM only to keep failing it time and time again with groups...

 

This is not something that is player driven... its driven by the very nature of the quest/raiddesign.... is that really so hard to comprehend?

 

Yes in other games the ELITIST vs the Casual is more rampant.. I understand your pain, I have been on both sides of that equation many times in the past, but like I said.. test the theory yourself.. get a group together (a random Pug)... no specifics just pick a decent challenge and see what happens.. then go again, then again, then again... when your tired of hitting your head on the desk, you may start to see where your ELITIST rubbish starts to fall down!!!

 

I do random PUGs all the time and we rarely have any problems.. If someone is a newish 50 and needs some direction, we always try to educate him.

 

The only times we have problems is when we get one of those people in the group who is constantly worried about what everyone else is doing, wearing or how they're specd..

 

Those are the guys who have to inspect everyone in the group, make comments about their gear, drop hints about who he thinks should be kicked out before we get to a boss, the one who's always ready to run off back to the fleet to find a replacement, or brags about his usual group and how leet they are. Those are the guys who would misuse gear checking in LFG if the power was left to the players.

 

They're also the ones who usually get kicked out of our groups and whine in General about how there's never any good groups.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Fuzzytoad

[Bloodstealer]

What facility is in the game now and is being used for the very same reasons?

 

And after looking at the group finder in their video, they could very well have gear checks in place, teir 1 and teir 2 hm flashpoints are seperate check boxes, it could be that you cant click the t2 check box until you have a certain gearscore.

 

Yeah i totaly would not put it past bioware to forget about a gear check but theres nothing i see that tells me its not in.

 

If you have not inspected another players gear or more to the point had your gear inspected, then you may be lucky.. but if you form a group then right click a players portarit you can inspect them... not that complicated...

An LFM tool does in in several ways... auto lookup so the tool decides based on the content recommendations.. or the leader can click on applicant and look up ... only real beneift is that you get to look up a player without being in the general vicinity... but its there currently if you want to use it.....

 

Yeah I wondered that about the HM tier.. seems logical to me.. sacves the ELITIST vs Casual argument at least if they do automate it like that... except of course the hate threads will blurt exclusionism, I pay to play full content, not to find I am excluded etc etc... there will not be any winners back at HQ

Edited May 22, 2012 by Bloodstealer

[Fuzzytoad]

you've already conceded that the game has gear gates. you accept that they're real and that they serve a function. and yet you still believe they should not be enforced. the only possible argument against player enforced gear-checking when the game doesn't do it automatically is that you think undergeared people should be carried. and that's fine to believe that, but what it will mean is that nobody who could actually do the carrying for you will ever use that tool.

 

That's absolutely not what I said.

[kilosoldier]

That's absolutely not what I said.

 

I'm not sure, at this point, you even understand what you are trying to say,

[Frostvein]

Lmao...see..see

 

This is what you get.

Whats next?

Gearscore?

DBM?

Threat meter?

bla

bla

 

oh...achievements..

 

Only things to exclude people.

 

so you would be cool if I wanted to run my Consular naked while using his two melee attacks in your 4 man?

[codyr]

I'm not sure, at this point, you even understand what you are trying to say,

 

i don't know either. i think it's basically come down to "mean people suck!" so whatever, you win Socrates.

[JimG]

What's strange is that no one saw this aspect coming.

 

Yep, this was an obvious downside to a LFG tool. For operations and HM flashpoints, the levels and gear needed are pretty self-explanatory and more "mandatory" than the other content. But this will be really interesting for the leveling process when you have people trying to run heroics and flashpoints at different levels and you could have some people severely under-geared. For example, I've had people insist that certain heroics absolutely require 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 dps when I've been able to run it as dps with another dps player and our 2 companions. For things other than operations and HM flashpoints, what is "necessary" is a blurred line. Oftentimes, people claim something is required to complete certain content and it's just plain overkill. Some people want to be guaranteed success because they are constantly monitoring their XP/credits/gear per second and they aren't even able to just enjoy playing the game. Other people just aren't very good players and they probably don't even realize that certain content can be completed with less because having an over-powered group masks their bad gameplay.

 

I suspect, however, that people forming operations groups or HM flashpoints will continue to use chat (other than pre-made guild groups) to ensure that they are putting together a group that meets their standards. CoH had a que system for their trials/raids and almost no one ever used it. People just gathered in a certain co-op zone and formed their groups through chat anyway to ensure proper balance, composition and gearing. If someone is THAT obsessed with certain requirements for their group composition, then they won't be putting together their group through the LFG tool anyway.

[kilosoldier]

I love the people in here using "gearscore" as an example of the "Evils" of this whole system and use it as and end to their logical fallacy, "The slippery slope" argument.

 

Gearscore DISAPPEARED for the most part once BLizz started gating with item level. NO ONE in that game asks for gear score anymore. Blizzard clearly defined the gear requirements and it eliminated much of the nonsense. People know and understand what they need to do in order to meet these requirements because its all very cut and dry.

Edited May 22, 2012 by kilosoldier

[Bloodstealer]

I do random PUGs all the time and we rarely have any problems.. If someone is a newish 50 and needs some direction, we always try to educate him.

 

The only times we have problems is when we get one of those people in the group who is constantly worried about what everyone else is doing, wearing or how they're specd..

 

Those are the guys who have to inspect everyone in the group, make comments about their gear, drop hints about who he thinks should be kicked out before we get to a boss, the one who's always ready to run off back to the fleet to find a replacement, or brags about his usual group and how leet they are. Those are the guys who would misuse gear checking in LFG if the power was left to the players.

 

They're also the ones who usually get kicked out of our groups and whine in General about how there's never any good groups.

 

Meeh I am so bored of this.. great your happy to run the gauntlet over and over.. others are not for a multitude of reasons already put out there in this thread.... if you are happy for a game to automate its requirements based on the quest/raid requirements.. why are you having such a tough time grasping that in SWTOR the content has been designed around gear, and if suxch an such gear are absent, that player becoimes aliability and potential wipe dolly...

I am happy your willing to hand hold, but I and others dont have the time to do that as much as I would but that does not make me or other ELITISTS because we choose to gear check you and overlook you when we feel your not geared for the quest....FACT OF LIFE SORRY...... not happy still, then hate me, /ignore me, add me to friends to warn you of my logging in... then go put your own LFM up and stop applying to mine.... simples!

[Skidrowbro]

Oh, someone threw in some meat and now the elitists have started circling. It's just like a national geographic documentary. Edited May 22, 2012 by Skidrowbro

[kilosoldier]

Oh, someone threw in some near and now the elitists have started circling. It's just like a national geographic documentary.

 

Haha.

 

This is typical. The argument presented against was soundly defeated by logic so take the discourse to an illogical place, start the ad hominems.

 

That strategy was discussed in ancient Greek philosophy, which could also be found on a national geographic documentary

[Ganrax]

It will probably be a learning experience for a number of people at first, as they begin to realize what they need in terms of gear, specs and tactics for various FPs.

 

I know on the servers I play on, there's already helpful people in place that try to educate players on what they will need for certain things.

 

What we don't need is a tool that allows other players to refuse other players based on something as arbitrary as gear choice. All it does is split the community and form elitism separation.

 

If there was some base score that the LFG tool could automatically use to warn players that they may not be suited for the mission, then that's a different story. Allowing other players, who will absolutely misuse such a system, to exclude players based on gear(or stats, or specs, or hairstyle, or whatever) is a bad idea.

 

Furthermore, I think the comment in the original post of: "Please Bioware don't make the fatal mistake of trying to make the bads happy." Clearly illustrates how and why such a tool would actually be used.

 

Do you just not read what you doesn't fit your narrow minded "the elitists are out to get me" attitude? There are gear requirements on the content set by the DEVELOPERS not some random elitists. There are enrage timers, the bosses hit harder on different difficulties, there is more damage going out to the group on different difficulties, all of this is counted by GEAR.

 

This isn't some big conspiracy to bar under geared players from content, this is how PvE progression works. You can't just ding 50 and jump right into a Hardmode Lost Island or Hardmode Denova. It is absolutely impossible for someone in fresh 50 questing gear to contribute in any useful way to a Hardmode Denova raid, you would end up needing to be carried, if that is even possible for HM Denova, meaning the rest of your raid would need to work even harder to compensate for your dead weight. How is that fair to everyone else in your raid just because you feel you are entitled to jump into whatever content you damn well please? You follow the intended path and work your way up to those instances, not just jump right into them and expect your group to carry you to your free loot.

 

As someone else said, it won't make any more gear requirements that aren't already in place now. Without a group finder currently you would get removed from a group once they inspected you(some people will be nicer than others and at least explain why you are being kicked but you will still get kicked) if you try to join a group that is running a Hardmode Lost Island and you are in Tionese gear. That's not elitism, that is knowing the requirements of the instance and taking only people that meet the requirements.

 

There absolutely needs to be a built in gear check in the LFG Tool(I personally liked Rift's gear check that checked to see if you had the minimum amount of stats it checked for on your selected role and class) that will bar players from queuing for content that they are not geared enough for. This will save groups a lot of time they would otherwise spend on inspecting/removing/replacing group members that aren't geared enough and remove the confrontation of under geared players joining groups that they can't effectively contribute in. This will of course also require that Bioware knows their own content and what gear requirements each Tier and Difficulty takes.

[Ancientwolfgr]

Nothing more fun than wearing the orange for the queue then changing it to green/blue when you zone in.

[Fuzzytoad]

Nothing more fun than wearing the orange for the queue then changing it to green/blue when you zone in.

 

yeah, I have a feeling there's going to be lots of that going on.

[mothear]

Just like the casual player does not want to waste their time grinding out single player content for months because there is no way for them to see any of the group content. The LFG tool is being considered because everyone should get a chance to play, not just the elitists who kick you if you are not perfect.

 

 

This quote here is the major problem.

 

I don't want to raid and I have yet to do any meaningful flashpoints (which should class me as not being elitist), but when I decide I want to do them I know I'm not a very good player and I will ensure that I am geared up sufficiently as to not be a burden to the others.

 

The response here is just 'I am entitled, now', not when I have enough gear just 'Now, now, now'.

 

OK you may not have much time, but all that should mean is that you have to take longer to gear up before you can do certain content. So in answer to what you said, yes you do have to waste time grinding out single player/or lower level flashpoints, to get gear before you can run higher level stuff.

 

Yes everyone should get a chance to play, but they should be prepared to do the work required for each part of the game. After all you don't buy a single person RPG, get half way through then have a magical ability to miss out the rest of the content apart from the final chapter.

 

In my opinion if you feel entitled to run the harder flashpoints immediately then it is you that are elitist, in the true sense which is I'm entitled because I pay.

[Ganrax]

Nothing more fun than wearing the orange for the queue then changing it to green/blue when you zone in.

 

Yeah that's why WoW's Gear Check is flawed imo. Rift's checked your attributes to see if they added up to the minimum the devs saw required to run the instance effectively for the role you have selected. For example you needed a let's say 100 Strength, 30 Attack Power, and 70 Endurance at least to run a Tier 1 Expert Dungeon as a Warrior(this isn't accurate, I haven't played Rift in quite a while now but you get the idea). Color of the gear or "item level" didn't matter at all when it came to queuing, so there is no point in having a terrible set of gear with high item level just to queue and another you wear in the instance since if you have the gear with the stats required to queue then you have good enough gear to run the instance anyway.

[MWidowmaker]

forget gear check, bolster the stats like its done in WZs, the lfg tool shud do that

no, i am not carrying you

deal with it

[TheronFett]

The standard aren't arbitrary and they are set by the developers.

 

I really have no idea what you are talking about. Devona is physically impossible to clear if your tank is in Tionese gear. It doesn't matter how good of a player you are, you don't have enough health to survive, end of story, no discussion. Therefore if you are in Tionese gear you should not be allowed to queue for Devona.

 

I'm not trying to exclude anyone that isn't already excluded. Certain gear is required to clear certain content, its not a mystery or some conspiracy elitist theory, its just how the game is designed. This is a gear based game, so not very surprisingly the content is gear gated.

 

QFtheplainandsimpleT

 

WoW spoiled this generation of gamers with its addon crap, DPS meters, and elitist tools. But the above is certainly true. This is a gear-based game. Fact.

 

A LFG tool is needed. It doesn't need to provide a gear listing, that's not its job. That's your job, as a player in an MMO, to socialize with other players by talking to them and finding out their gear loadout. Any gear-based addon can be worked around for a variety of reasons, and is not reliable. See above.

Edited May 22, 2012 by TheronFett

[Ganrax]

This quote here is the major problem.

 

I don't want to raid and I have yet to do any meaningful flashpoints (which should class me as not being elitist), but when I decide I want to do them I know I'm not a very good player and I will ensure that I am geared up sufficiently as to not be a burden to the others.

 

The response here is just 'I am entitled, now', not when I have enough gear just 'Now, now, now'.

 

OK you may not have much time, but all that should mean is that you have to take longer to gear up before you can do certain content. So in answer to what you said, yes you do have to waste time grinding out single player/or lower level flashpoints, to get gear before you can run higher level stuff.

 

Yes everyone should get a chance to play, but they should be prepared to do the work required for each part of the game. After all you don't buy a single person RPG, get half way through then have a magical ability to miss out the rest of the content apart from the final chapter.

 

In my opinion if you feel entitled to run the harder flashpoints immediately then it is you that are elitist, in the true sense which is I'm entitled because I pay.

 

This! Thank you. Just because people feel entitled to doing content that they want to without having to put the effort in to get up to that level first doesn't mean that they should be able to at the expense of people that actually did put the effort in to get up to that level. And it is absolutely at the expense of the people that put the work in, if your gear isn't up to par with what the instance requires then they have to work harder to compensate for that fact and a lot of times, unless they are over gearing the instance, they simply can't do that and you just wasted everyone's time because you didn't want to put the work into getting the gear required first.