No Gear Check in the LFG tool?

[Kalfear]

So what you're saying is you're happy to sign up for a LFG tool that doesn't have a gear requirement? Whether you like it or not, or realise it or not (you don't), every end game flashpoint/OPs has a minimum gear requirement that you need to meet otherwise it's flat out impossible to complete it regardless of skill (this has been the case for every MMO ever invented. MMOs are about levelling and character progression through gear, if you don't like that then why are you playing one?).

 

Edit: My favourite buzz word in this thread so far is 'exclusion'. It's pretty amazing how far people go to try to contort arguments with false logic.

 

Yup,

 

Id gladly have fun on the run and die then listen to ego driven gear score players try to act superior!

Thats what im saying

 

MMOs are NOT just about leveling and gear progression.

 

Thats the WOW attitude and frankly its killing the genre.

 

Id gladly take a group of newbies through a encounter and teach them how to be better then listen to some guy in the geared out specs who doesnt understand what taunt does and when to use it (true example from RIFT btw)

[ZudetGambeous]

Unfortunately Gear score leads to elitism. No matter how well intentioned or what purpose devs hope it gets used for it pretty much always leads to "oh well your gear score is only xxxx, you can't raid with us"

 

Come up with a way gear score can be used without leading to this and I'll back it with as much vigor as the next guy.

 

implement a system that rates your gear and requires a minimum level to queue for certain content. No player involvement at all.

 

I've only seen one person on this entire thread that has asked for any sort of public system that is player controller. Currently that is what is in the game. What myself and most others are asking for is a built in limit, decided by the developers on what gear you need to run a certain FP/OP.

 

This is actually already in the game in the form of instance gates. You can't enter any ops before you are level 50. It is the same idea but instead of levels you have gear progression after 50.

 

If you look on the devs blogs and posts you'll see mention of ilvl. This is essentially your effective level. but is determined by gear instead of experience. Level 50 FP's currently have a gear level of 48-50. I.E the devs expect you to be level 50 and have gear that has ilvl between 48-50. HM FP's (except Kaon and LI) have a gear level of 50. The devs expect you to have all gear that has an ilvl of 50 or above.

 

HM Kaon is slightly higher, somewhere around ilvl 52, while HM LI is around ilvl 56. Ops have a similar progression.

 

Someone who only has an ilvl of 50 will not, no matter how "skilled" or "leet" they are be able to complete a FP with an ilvl requirement of 56. This is no different then how it currently is on live. No group of 4 players will be able to finish HM LI without having an average ilvl of at least 56. This is not elitism or players being mean to you, it is simply a fact.

 

All people want is to have the LFG tool take this into account when people queue for HM FP's. It is not changing anything that isn't already there.

[DizzD]

Join a guild play with people you know if you pug then you get what you get.

How about they just scale the instance to the group that way gear becomes irrelevant, problem solved.

 

The only time gear should matter is if you're running things on hard mode.

 

Scaling the instance to the group is a neat idea, but is a far more complicated solution than a gear check, and would require 5 gajillion metric crap-tons of back end programming work(ie. won't happen).

[codyr]

actually everyone stop for a second. go watch the new video on the site. it's slightly different from the IGN version, because on this new one you can see the LFG tool has the different tiers of content broken up into different sections. you can also see that everything other than story mode flashpoints rewards BH commendations. i'm pretty sure gear check is already in there.

[Lymain]

The whole problem with this game is that players can't find groups.

 

Can't understand why Bioware or anyone else would think that. On live currently, you want to do LI+Kaon once a week, raid once or twice a week, and do the solo Black Hole quests once a week. Everything else is basically pointless.

 

There's like two hours of meaningful PvE content outside of raids per week, tops...

Edited May 22, 2012 by Lymain

[kilosoldier]

Yup,

 

Id gladly have fun on the run and die then listen to ego driven gear score players try to act superior!

Thats what im saying

 

MMOs are NOT just about leveling and gear progression.

 

Thats the WOW attitude and frankly its killing the genre.

 

Id gladly take a group of newbies through a encounter and teach them how to be better then listen to some guy in the geared out specs who doesnt understand what taunt does and when to use it (true example from RIFT btw)

 

Red herring.

 

You can have fun on your runs without worrying about all that because Bioware will make sure players are in the proper gear for the flashpoint thus ensuring FUN and a chance to complete said content.

[Daethorz]

One of the reasons WoW made me angry was because they had no gear check, we had full pvp geared people doing raids.

 

Ofcourse the lowest level heroicmodes should have Extremely low requirements, but when you get into the higher tier ones, there should be high standards.

 

-This is coming from a guy with no pve gear to speak of, im not willing to spend 4 hours finding people to run a 1 hour flashpoint with and not get any drops.

[ZudetGambeous]

actually everyone stop for a second. go watch the new video on the site. it's slightly different from the IGN version, because on this new one you can see the LFG tool has the different tiers of content broken up into different sections. you can also see that everything other than story mode flashpoints rewards BH commendations. i'm pretty sure gear check is already in there.

 

I just finished watching it and unfortunately it is still unclear. They queued for HM LI, which is top tier, and there didn't appear to be any gate, but I assume the test characters they were using were already geared so it wouldn't stop them. Unfortunately it doesn't prove or disprove anything at this point. We'd have to see a fresh 50 trying to use the tool and see if things were grayed out.

[iamthehoyden]

Without a gear score aspect to a LFG you'll get either a group that is geared enough and skilled enough to get through it or you won't.

 

With a gear score aspect to a LFG you'll get a group that's geared enough, but whether they're skilled enough is another thing.

 

Either way it's a chance you take when you click "Join Queue" and really if you want to be sure that everyone you're playing with is geared and skilled you're better off forming your own groups.

 

Yes, there is a minimum level of gear necessary, but it's really an equation that looks more like gear + skill = functional group member. If you have more skill you can compensate for a lack of gear, to a point, and vice versa. Those who don't have anything approaching minimum in either category will no doubt be told or will find themselves in fail group after fail group and will either gear up or get lost.

And somehow, someway, life will go on....

[TheCynic]

This is exactly why I dislike Raiding and dislike the direction of games since WOW hit seen.

 

The only type of condition that should be required to raid/pvp/what ever is you have gear to level (IE I understand why people would complain about a lvl 50 wearing lvl 25 armor, that makes sence. Complaining the have green lvl 50 stuff doesnt)

 

I really hate the gear mentality that WOW brought about!

 

Even in EQ2 they didnt have gear restictions (oh the elitists found other restictions on how looting and raiding worked but gear wasnt one of them).

 

Really miss the days where skill and ability and class knowledge mattered.

 

Now a days skill and knowledge seems to be replaced by gear score!

 

Personally im always chaseing the virtual carrot of better stuff so I will never run into the "your not geared right" whine. But like in EQ2 and like in Rift, I see some elitist complaining about someones gear and excluding them, ill also drop from group as rather not have anything then help those types gain anything.

 

Glad EAoware didnt put in a gear check.

One of their smarter moves.

 

EQ2 VERY much had gearchecks/gated content. At least from release though SF.

 

To the anti-check people, do you also get angry at restaurants with dress codes when you are not dressed properly or at amusement parks with signs that say you must be _____ tall to ride and you are too short?

 

It is the same argument, if X is designed for people with Y gear there should be a way to make sure you have Y gear before you go do that content. You all talk about fun, do you call wiping over and over getting no gear and waiting your time fun? 'Cause that is what you are saying.

[Ratajack]

No it didn't. The gear check in WoW was there to prevent someone in quest greens for queuing up and wasting everyone else's time in dungeons like Grim Batol. Gearcheck addon caused some elitist exclusion, but the actual dungeon finder gear requirement did not. Do you not remember cheesing the gear requirement because it took account items in your inventory as well?

 

I know that many people "cheesed" the gear check in WOW. I also know that many people who met the gear requirements legitimately were kicked as well, because their gear was not the latest and greatest, highest raid tier. Even now you have people spamming chat for groups for raids or dungeons requiring a gear level far in excess of what Blizzard set as the minimum in order to qualify for LFD or LFR. I agree that anyone forming their own groups has the right to set whatever standards they deem fit. If they are using the LFD/LFR tools, however, I feel that they give up the right to place excessive gear demands on the players with whom they are grouped. If they find they are grouped with a player who they feel is undergeared, they are free to drop group and queue again.

 

I'm fine with BW putting a gear check in the LFG tool. If BW puts a gear check in the LFG tool, would that be sufficient for the masses, or would the majority still expect players to outgear the instance and kick anyone who's gear doesn't meet their inflated standards, even if they meet the minimum gear check? If a player meets the minimum standards set by BW--the people who designed these gear gated instances, then they should not have to worry about being kicked because they do not outgear the instance. Or, do the players(elitists) feel they know better than the designers?

Edited May 23, 2012 by Ratajack

[kilosoldier]

Or, do the players(elitists) feel they know better than the designers?

 

Just couldnt help taken a shot at someone.

 

This thread has been nothing short of people putting words in peoples mouths and building straw men to fit their stereotypes and to propagate the victim role.

 

No one in LFD/LFR in WoW leaves an instance because of peoples gear if they were able to queue fro said dungeon or raid. They leave if the players are really bad and dont know what they are doing. I have seen them leave because people roll for off spec gear when there is a main spec in the group...but no, people dont join a group and drop because of "gear"

[Ratajack]

Just couldnt help taken a shot at someone.

 

This thread has been nothing short of people putting words in peoples mouths and building straw men to fit their stereotypes and to propagate the victim role.

 

No one in LFD/LFR in WoW leaves an instance because of peoples gear if they were able to queue fro said dungeon or raid. They leave if the players are really bad and dont know what they are doing. I have seen them leave because people roll for off spec gear when there is a main spec in the group...but no, people dont join a group and drop because of "gear"

 

Where am I propagating the "victim" role? I asked a valid question. If BW puts a gear check in the LFG tool, will the masses? Will they accept that if a player meets the standards to queue for the instance-FP/HM or OP, they should be able to remain in the group and not have to worry about being kicked, or will they set their own inflated gear requirements?

 

 

If I didn't make myself clear, I did not mean to say that people in LFD/LFR LEAVE groups because of people's gear, even if those people were able to queue for said dungeon or raid. I was trying to say that people are kicked for not meeting the inflated gear expectations of the "elitists", despite the fact that they met the standards set by Blizzard to be able to queue for the dungeon or raid, and met those requirements without "cheesing" the gear check.

[GeekNius]

Where am I propagating the "victim" role? I asked a valid question. If BW puts a gear check in the LFG tool, will the masses? Will they accept that if a player meets the standards to queue for the instance-FP/HM or OP, they should be able to remain in the group and not have to worry about being kicked, or will they set their own inflated gear requirements?

 

 

If I didn't make myself clear, I did not mean to say that people in LFD/LFR LEAVE groups because of people's gear, even if those people were able to queue for said dungeon or raid. I was trying to say that people are kicked for not meeting the inflated gear expectations of the "elitists", despite the fact that they met the standards set by Blizzard to be able to queue for the dungeon or raid, and met those requirements without "cheesing" the gear check.

 

It's very easy to answer:

 

If BW puts in a hard minimum in the LFG that's reflecting difficulty even somewhat accurately, people will mostly accept it, since asking for higher standards makes them look unable to carry their own weight and asking to get carried instead.

 

If BW does NOT put in a minimum requirement, the community will do that instead. And that minimum will invariably be a lot higher, since people prefer smooth runs to hitting enrage timers or even wipefests ... and will be more guided by convenience and worst-case-PUG-baddy-scenarios than realistic requirements.

That's basic social dynamics - laws of nature you won't be able to change or ignore.

 

Just as it is a law of nature that there WILL be baddies, both geared and undergeared, and that there WILL be people trying to shortcut through progression by being carried.

Personally I'd really prefer though if the system took care of at least the later, instead of having to be the mean "elitist" that tells people they're undergeared and a liability, having to argue with the carebear in the group that thinks the rest of the group is overgeared enough to carry anyone, and having to drop groups while leecheres just have to queue until they find a gullible group to get them their free epix. YMMV.

Edited May 23, 2012 by GeekNius

[Ratajack]

It's very easy to answer:

 

If BW puts in a hard minimum in the LFG that's reflecting difficulty even somewhat accurately, people will mostly accept it, since asking for higher standards makes them look unable to carry their own weight and asking to get carried intead.

 

If BW does NOT put in a minimum requirement, the community will do that instead. And that minimum will invariably be a lot higher, since people prefer smooth runs to hitting enrage timers or even wipefests ... and will be more guided by convenience and worst-case-PUG-baddy-scenarios than realistic requirements.

That's basic social dynamics - laws of nature you won't be able to change or ignore.

 

Just as it is a law of nature that there WILL be baddies, both geared and undergeared, and that there WILL be people trying to shortcut through progression by being carried.

Personally I'd really prefer though if the system took care of at least the later, instead of having to be the mean "elitist" that tells people they're undergeared and a liability, having to argue with the carebear in the group that thinks the rest of the group is overgeared enough to carry anyone, and having to drop groups while leecheres just have to queue until they find a gullible group to get them their free epix. YMMV.

 

I hope you are correct regarding the majority of groups/players accepting a BW implemented gear check. I agree that a gear check designed/implemented by BW would be better than an arbitrary one set by players, which would vary from group to group.

[kilosoldier]

I hope you are correct regarding the majority of groups/players accepting a BW implemented gear check. I agree that a gear check designed/implemented by BW would be better than an arbitrary one set by players, which would vary from group to group.

 

There is no more vile and ignorant player base than Wow...they accepted the Blizzard set gates in their LFD and LFR tool.

[RobNightfall]

Hmm, that's strange..

All these threads from people saying that a LFG tool would make everyone more social and build up the overall SWTOR community because it would allow *all* players to group up and enjoy the game in an atmosphere where you didn't need to spend forever looking for specific people in order to do FPs.

 

Now we see that it's yet another way to shun players who aren't up to whatever arbitrary standards set by a minority.

 

What do you want next? A mandatory upload of each potential group member's latest combat log so you can scrutinize it before they join? Maybe a checkbox for only those with Bio? Maybe a Founder's only option so those newer players who aren't worthy of you can't participate?

 

He's not talking about WoW gear score BS, he's talking about a developer generated tool that auto screens before allowing the que pop to happen. This isn't a bad idea, and would actually help new players grind the instances they need to do first before trying more difficult stuff. So of course BW isn't implementing it and probably didn't even think of it.

[Drudenfusz]

I think that most people who have not the right gear would not try hard mode flashpoints, but the system rewards people to use the LFG totally random, so we will find people with all green gear in hard mode flashpoints... and that's where issues arise. So, I don't think it is truly needed to know what equipment the other players have, the reward system just should not reward things that make people unhappy with their fellow gamers.

[Ratajack]

There is no more vile and ignorant player base than Wow...they accepted the Blizzard set gates in their LFD and LFR tool.

 

I'm glad that you had better experiences with the WOW LFD/LFR tool than I did. I found the opposite to be true, more often than not, even to this day. As I said earlier, I have seen far too many players removed from LFD groups, despite my no vote, for not outgearing the instance. Too many players were/are looking for "speed runs".

[Gimixes]

WTB more Wow folks ingame with all their requirements and things they want.

Makes Swtor a more fun game...NOT.

 

Ontopic...you want LFG so badly..deal with the downside also then.

[chimex]

Tbh I'm giving this a chance. There already are gear gates in the game, I have no concern with those. As for the LFg, it is same server so i personally am ok with that. But on the same coin, I think what alot of ppl are worried about (me included) is the way some players take it upon themselves to raise the requirement.

 

If I need a full tier 1 to enter a certain flashpoint, that's fine, the game will say (in its own way) congrats, you can do this one. That being said, I would not want some pebble faced, squeeky voiced know it all to say to me "you need at least 3 pieces of tier two with that snarf snarf". There is a difference between what is already a game mechanic (very much reflecting level requirements on pre 50) saying this is the standard, and someone raising the already placed standard, just so they can faceroll the whole thing and feel somewhat better about themselves for it.

 

It is unfortunate that some players take it upon themselves to polide theiir own personal standards, thinking they know more about the game than the game does (almost sounds like some weird matrix stuff here lol). We HAVE seen this in other games, even when the system impliments its own minimum standard. Some players seem to almost get off on this. I believe that, is what many of us are affraid of. Not a systems minimal standard, but players implimenting there own (above said standard), thereby, deliberately excluding others who have every right to be there.

 

x

[Sparklehorse]

Gear is not a measure of skill and never should be

 

 

No but I don't care how skilled you are as a tank if a boss has an ability that does 5,000 damage and your tank has 4,999 HP, no amount of skill is going to keep that tank alive.

 

If this releases without a gear check it will be all the evidence I need to prove that the people designing this game have no idea how to develop an MMO.

 

Since there is little evidence to prove that the tool will or won't have a gear check, I will assume there isn't much to be worried about for the time being.

 

Surely they aren't that stupid? Please tell me they aren't that stupid. It's bad enough that it isn't cross server and will therefore only be half (and that's being generous) as good as it could be but if there's no gear check, it's basically worthless.

[matzackjones]

Personally, if I don't think my character is appropriately geared I wont sign up. I don't need an arbitrary gear requirement enforced upon me. I can work it out for myself. Unfortunately, not everyone thinks that way, so I can understand why one is perhaps desirable. That being said, I have seen time and time again players outperform their gear and contribute more in instance than those with ridiculously good gear ... so I am undecided it seems LOL

[Rabrac]

Good news OP, the LFG tool will not be available for Heroic Mode Operations. Everything else does not required very well equipped characters.

[nartiuslightlord]

LOL gear check!

 

Yes we already have PVP people wanting to have an entire game dedicated to them. Now PVE hardcores want to limit another players ability to have fun and be in a group.

 

I'm glad they can't tell how much DPS and what type of gear we have. IF BW allows people like you OP to limit other people chances to enjoy the game then they will loose many subs.