Problems with the Prequels

[Rayla_Felana]

Firstly Anakin didn't just turn randomly, you got it completely wrong.

 

He was on the verge of the Dark Side for years before he finally fell, he was constantly at war with his emotions, he also states in Episode II that he believes democracy doesn't work and what he described as his preferred view on the galaxy was exactly what the Galactic Empire was, a dictatorship.

 

He also ever since losing his mother had pledged to learn how to stop people from dying, something which was further pushed into his mentality when Sidious offered him this power, it is possible Sidious himself planted those visions of Padme's death into his head, so he'd be seduced by the thought.

 

Even more than this, he felt held back by the Jedi council because they didn't trust him, which in fairness he was right, they didn't trust him especially when pushed next to Senator Palpatine, even worse when they didn't give him the Master rank, they had denied him the exact things he believed he needed to save Padme, the holocrons which were only accessible by Jedi Masters not Jedi Knights, he believed they could hold the key to the healing powers that he had failed to master which resulted in his Tusken ally's death way back in the Clone Wars.

 

Now let me describe to you Anakin's thoughts, when he entered Palpatine's office, all he could see was a defeated Sidious about to be killed by Windu, he believed Sidious when he feigned complete lack of power and when Windu went in for the kill, Anakin disarmed him mainly because he believed Padme would die if he lost Palpatine and secondly because he really did believe Sidious had no way to fight back, he was taken by surprise when Sidious instantly murdered Windu, but by that point he believed the Jedi wouldn't take him back so he left himself open to Sidious' influence, which is incredibly powerful, Luke Skywalker stated that he had a hypnotic lull to his voice and that his very presence pulled you to the Dark Side, that is mainly because Sidious himself was a walking Dark Side Nexus which is very powerful and corrupting.

 

So when Vader went to attack the Jedi Temple Sidious was pushing his mind further and further into the Dark Side which means Vader lost all reason and was being pulled further and further into insanity.

At the same time something was happening in the Force, with each jedi's death all across the galaxy simultaneously, the Dark Side grew in power, which created a kind of Dark Side nexus which spread all across the galaxy, and was primarily focused on what was now Imperial Centre not Coruscant.

 

All of this Dark Side power was focused into Sidious and Vader, so much power merely overwhelmed Vader's mind and he was filled with rage, then came Mustafar, throughout the Clone Wars Anakin had made his hatred of the Separatists well known choking and killing them without second thought, so when he massacred the Separatist Leaders he didn't have any qualms about it, they were corrupt scum and he was doing something good for the galaxy, so he actually believed what he was doing was for the better of the galaxy, a strong Empire that could abolish the corruption in the senate and even better, he was going to save his wife whilst doing it, but by the time she found him, he wasn't Anakin at all.

 

Vader was a corrupt, paranoid and suppressed version of his former self, and all the emotions rushing through him made him lash out to Padme, this was the fulfilment of the vision, which itself could very well have been a warning to stay away from the Dark Side of the Force but it had the opposite effect and pushed him further to his selfish attachment to Padme and the beings he loved, seeing Obi-Wan made him furious because he blamed him for everything that had happened and even further so the Jedi Order, which just like Sidious claimed were plotting to take over, though not in nearly the same way that Palpatine was suggesting, he witnessed the council say they would have to take control to secure a peaceful transition.

 

When the battle was waging, he was using the most aggressive Djem-So style ever seen, he became rage incarnate and the only thing stopping him from killing Obi-Wan was Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu.

 

TL;DR, He didn't just fall to the Dark Side, it was a prolonged effort by Sidious to corrupt him over the years, Anakin never stood a chance.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[Wolfninjajedi]

^ Pretty much what I said, just in longer depth.

 

Edit: Not saying thats a bad thing Rayla.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[LeeC]

^ Pretty much what I said, just in longer depth.

 

Edit: Not saying thats a bad thing Rayla.

Wolfninjajedi out of curiosity have you watched all 3 plinkett reviews of the PT?

 

I've noticed you defend the PT with a passion and wanted your opinion of the reviews.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Wolfninjajedi out of curiosity have you watched all 3 plinkett reviews of the PT?

 

I've noticed you defend the PT with a passion and wanted your opinion of the reviews.

 

Bits and pieces, but I just can't get through them because the guy has such an annoying voice and he nitpicks so deeply that you could do that for any movie and it'll work.

 

Its not rocket science to figure out the movies, you just need to put some thought into them. Look at them from another angle so to speak. You shouldn't view them at just one particular viewpoint, run through your thoughts and try looking at the movies from a different perspective.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Captain_Zone]

Bits and pieces, but I just can't get through them because the guy has such an annoying voice and he nitpicks so deeply that you could do that for any movie and it'll work.

 

Its not rocket science to figure out the movies, you just need to put some thought into them. Look at them from another angle so to speak. You shouldn't view them at just one particular viewpoint, run through your thoughts and try looking at the movies from a different perspective.

 

My other perspective on the movies was the novelizations. The books are about 100 times better than the onscreen prequels.

[Wolfninjajedi]

My other perspective on the movies was the novelizations. The books are about 100 times better than the onscreen prequels.

 

Well then, there ya go.

[Slowpokeking]

The only problem I see with Anakin's corruption is that Palpatine didn't actually show him any proof about Plagueis' power, simply told him the tragedy, if he could somehow show it, that will be much more convincing.

[grandmthethird]

the problem with PT, is simple really,, its us. and we might want to admit it but that is the problem right there, and here is why.

 

we grew up with OT and have nostalgic memory's of what we think starwars is, and PT is not the way we remember it. to much FX not enough story. but that is because the way films are made is different now. ever sat down to watch all 6 films with kids? OT is boring for a 7 year old kid, yet PT is the best thing ever. mine has seen 3D TPM 3 times, i can't get him to wat a new hope all the way through tho. yet when i was his age i watched it.

 

so there you go, there is the problem, times are different. kids are different, they love flashy, sparkly, explosive CGI ran films, where as we don't remember starwars in this way. so the big problem IMO with PT is us. because there is an audience that loves it

[Chaac]

My biggest problem with the Prequel movies will forever be these two quotes.

 

Episode II: Anakin to Padme - "I killed them. I killed them all. They're dead, every single one of them. And not just the men, but the women and the children, too. They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I HATE THEM! "

 

Episode III: Obi-Wan Kenobi: From himself. Padmé, Anakin has turned to the Dark Side.

Padmé: You're wrong! How could you even SAY that?

Obi-Wan Kenobi: I have seen a security hologram... of him... killing Younglings.

Padmé: No! Not Anakin! He couldn't...

 

 

Yeah, clearly Anakin isn't the kind of guy who could kill children, it's not like he confessed to her that he did that just a couple of years before.....

[Wolfninjajedi]

My biggest problem with the Prequel movies will forever be these two quotes.

 

Episode II: Anakin to Padme - "I killed them. I killed them all. They're dead, every single one of them. And not just the men, but the women and the children, too. They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I HATE THEM! "

 

Episode III: Obi-Wan Kenobi: From himself. Padmé, Anakin has turned to the Dark Side.

Padmé: You're wrong! How could you even SAY that?

Obi-Wan Kenobi: I have seen a security hologram... of him... killing Younglings.

Padmé: No! Not Anakin! He couldn't...

 

 

Yeah, clearly Anakin isn't the kind of guy who could kill children, it's not like he confessed to her that he did that just a couple of years before.....

 

Different groups completely, Sand People were violent and ruthless. Sure the children probably weren't at the time(though adulthood for Sand People is 15), but who is to actually say what they were? An adolescent had to go out, find a creature and brutally torture it to death as one of their rites of passage. In fact the greatest prestige is doing it to another sentient being(aka: Anakin's mother)

 

Whereas jedi younglings are but just kids, trying to learn the jedi ways and being better people. They aren't violent savages that go out of their way to kill things.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Jaavik]

Well, in Episode III, how is it possible that Anakin turns to the Dark Side so easily, just because he had a dream about his wife dying(or giving birth)?

 

It's mentioned in Episode I that Anakin was not to be trained because he is too old. Jedi's are taken from parents at birth to be raised in the Jedi order. Part of the purpose of this is to prevent them from developing attachments. Yoda questions Anakin in Episode I about his mother and how he seems "afraid to lose her". (Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, etc.), also there was the attachment that he developed toward Qui-Gon, who he lost, and Padme, who he fell in love with.

 

Anakin's power was also considered to be "off the scale", so that made a greater danger in training him (or as Qui-Gon viewed it, a greater danger in NOT doing it.) This made Anakin arrogant because he felt he was "farther along" because his connection to the force was so powerful. This was shown in Episode II when he was throwing rage fits about Obi-Wan holding him back. Plus there was the "forbidden-love" angle of him desiring Padme. A lot of this exemplifies the reasons why Jedi don't begin training past a certain age.

 

Don't forget that Anakin also lost control when he disobeyed his master and went looking for his mother, found her, beaten and tortured and she died in his arms. So he slaughtered the tribe out of rage. (all because of attachments he wasn't supposed to have).

 

Then we include the machinations of Darth Sidious (Palpatine) influencing Anakin and feeding into his frustrations, appointing him as his personal representative on the Jedi council, knowing full well the council would oppose it, making Anakin feel like he wasn't appreciated.

 

Once Episode II came around, he was married and Padme was pregnant, more attachments that he wasn't supposed to have. After all he's already lost, it was obvious he wasn't willing to lose Padme when he began having prphetical dreams that she was going to die in childbirth. He panics and Palpatine starts to real him in with the possibility of finding a way to control death. Jedi don't want their members to develop attachments because of the danger of what someone with a great amount of power would be willing to do to keep those attachments.

 

So there were many MANY factors that turned him to the dark side. The prequels are about manipulations and political intrigue. It requires a little more following the elements of the story than the Original Trilogy did.

 

Also, how can Jar Jar(who is total clutz) become a Senator, and have the authority to give Palpatine access to emergency powers?

 

Jar Jar was seen by the Gungans current leader, Boss Nass as the one responsible for bringing the Gungans and Naboo together, and he even says so at the end of Episode I when he makes Jar Jar a General in their military. Since Jar Jar was being seen as an ambassador between the Naboo and the Gungans, it only makes sense that if they were going to merge and have representation in the Senate to already use the one responsible for bringing them together.

 

As far as the "emergency powers", Jar Jar doesn't have the authority to GIVE Palpatine these powers, he only has the authority to present it in the senate for a vote, which is what he did, the SENATE voted him the emergency powers. Jar Jar was just manipulated into suggesting the idea so that Palpatine didn't look like he was seeking it. Jar Jar thought he was doing the right thing.

[Jaavik]

My biggest problem with the Prequel movies will forever be these two quotes.

 

Episode II: Anakin to Padme - "I killed them. I killed them all. They're dead, every single one of them. And not just the men, but the women and the children, too. They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I HATE THEM! "

 

Episode III: Obi-Wan Kenobi: From himself. Padmé, Anakin has turned to the Dark Side.

Padmé: You're wrong! How could you even SAY that?

Obi-Wan Kenobi: I have seen a security hologram... of him... killing Younglings.

Padmé: No! Not Anakin! He couldn't...

 

 

Yeah, clearly Anakin isn't the kind of guy who could kill children, it's not like he confessed to her that he did that just a couple of years before.....

 

Sand People were a Tribal culture and, by many, viewed as "savages" and if you review Anakin's response about them, he doesn't say "They're LIKE animals" (as you quoted it), he says '"They're animals". Which is how he viewed it (an possibly she did too). They had just kidnapped and tortured (and possibly *****) his mother to death, if it was done by someone I cared about, I could probably justify it in my head on some level. He viewed it as "putting down a savage animal".

 

She just couldn't believe it when it was the younglings, because they are viewed as innocent (and civilized), and I pretty sure none of them got a shot at Anakin's mother.

[Jaavik]

The only problem I see with Anakin's corruption is that Palpatine didn't actually show him any proof about Plagueis' power, simply told him the tragedy, if he could somehow show it, that will be much more convincing.

 

Anakin believed his dreams to be prophetic. He watched Padme die while giving birth. It WAS going to happen. And she was pretty close to the time to give birth so Anakin was desperate.

 

I don't find that the least bit unbelievable.

 

People, in moments of deperation, will often convince themselves to believe something if they think it's their only hope. If you had someone with a terminal disease and someone promised you a "miracle cure', you would at least TRY it, even if your rational mind reasoned against it.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Jaavik

[Slowpokeking]

Anakin believed his dreams to be prophetic. He watched Padme die while giving birth. It WAS going to happen. And she was pretty close to the time to give birth so Anakin was desperate.

 

I don't find that the least bit unbelievable.

 

People, in moments of deperation, will often convince themselves to believe something if they think it's their only hope. If you had someone with a terminal disease and someone promised you a "miracle cure', you would at least TRY it, even if your rational mind reasoned against it.

Yeah it's not a plot hole, but if Sidious could show him the power it would be better.

[Mordegrus]

You do know some time passes in the film right?

 

But Anakin was already on the verge of falling. Between Ep II and III events occured that really messed him up. (and no not TCW).

 

But couldn't Obi-Wan sense the Dark Side in him?

[Jaavik]

The fall of Anakin is too weak of a storyline, because Revenge is the main theme of the Trilogy's, seen in the scene we first meet Darth Maul, in Episode IV where Luke seeks to avenge his father's death, and the original title for Episode VI wad, "Revenge of the Jedi" To carry that theme forward, Anakin should have sought revenge against the Jedi for the death of Padme, making a better storyline.

 

Actually the theme of the films is the "Rise, Fall and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker". Maul refers to revenge while talking Sidious, but it's not the entire purpose of what they were doing. It was always planned for Palpatine to start a war and use it to obtain absolute power. Maul makes mention of it in The Clone Wars that the war started without him. He was originally in on the plan.

 

His plan to do it was GENIUS, since the only way you could easily take out the Jedi were to make them Generals in the war and put each of them in charge of a platoon of clone troopers who would turn on them at a single command. Each of the Jedi spread out, worlds away from each other and severely outnumbered by troopers who never realized they were programmed to kill them when Order 66 was given.

 

The title of "Revenge of the Jedi" was changed to "Return of the Jedi" because Lucas felt that Jedi don't seek revenge.

 

Luke doesn't really SEEK to avenge his father's death, because he never actually seeks Vader out. He went to Bespin to save his friends. He only seeks out Vader AFTER he discovers he is his father (oops...spoiler alert)

[Mordegrus]

 

Luke doesn't really SEEK to avenge his father's death, because he never actually seeks Vader out. He went to Bespin to save his friends. He only seeks out Vader AFTER he discovers he is his father (oops...spoiler alert)

 

Well, didn't Obi-Wan tell Luke that Vader killed his father in Episode IV?

Edited May 18, 2012 by Mordegrus

[Jaavik]

Okay, I'm convinced, about your reasons.

But the way LucasArts portrayed it was terrible, the whole Count Dooku thing with his battle droid army seemed like a distraction.

 

Essentially, it WAS a distraction. Dooku was in charge of the distraction. The purpose of creating the Separatists and having a droid army was to create fear. He suckered a group together to become this opposing side and promised them everything. It was never intended to have The Seperatists win the war. Palpatine essentially created his own "bad guys" so he could play the hero.

 

The opposition to the Republic had it's own army, quick to assemble and pretty much disposable. The Republic didn't have an army. It would be the equivalent of the United Nations having it's own military. It created a way for Palpatine to "discover" this ready-made clone army that was his to command.

 

The trick was getting the Jedi to join the military as Generals. Jedi are essentially the police. They are peace-keepers - not soldiers. Once the Jedi agreed to lead the troops, it wasn't difficult to make the Separatists scared that these all-powerful Jedi were now "attacking them", and just as easy afterwards to convince the senate that the Jedi were trying to stage a coup and seize power.

 

One thing that's never really brought up in the movies is that there are very few Jedi in comparison to the size of the galaxy, some people don't believe in them (Han Solo not believing in the force) because they've never seen someone use the force. They are uncommon to the average person.

 

Plus, they should have kept Darth Maul.

He was a Darth and was killed by an apprentice?

Impossible.

Masters and Apprentices can be better or worse than each other. Obi-Wan might have had better saber-skills than Qui-Gon who may have had a greater knowledge of the force. Even though Obi-Wan was an apprentice, he is told by Qui-Gon that he couldn't teach him anything else (when he tries to take Anakin as his Padawan), that he was ready for "the trials". So Obi-Wan was skilled enough to be a Knight.

 

And as far as keeping Darth Maul... well, if you follow The Clone Wars series...

 

 

Maul survived. He is found by his brother, Savage Oppress and together they find, and beat the dog-squeeze out of Obi-Wan, who barely escapes. Maul will be a primary character next season.

 

Edited May 19, 2012 by Jaavik

[Slowpokeking]

Maul is more powerful than Obi Wan at that time, he was beaten because he was caught off guard.

 

And it's Padawan for Jedi, not apprentice.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Well, didn't Obi-Wan tell Luke that Vader killed his father in Episode IV?

 

He did, and that was a somewhat truth when you look at it. Anakin was no longer Anakin, he transformed himself into Darth Vader. So yes in a way, Vader did kill Luke's father Anakin even Yoda says this.

 

Yoda: "The apprentice you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader."

[Mordegrus]

The reason why LucasArts put Maul in the Clone Wars, is that they realized the mistake of killing off Maul in the first movie. If they had realized their mistake, they would have kept him in the second, or third movie.

[Jaavik]

Well, didn't Obi-Wan tell Luke that Vader killed his father in Episode IV?

 

He does tell him that, but Luke never goes after Vader. Luke never sought revenge. Luke really didn't even KNOW his father. He was curious, but he was told a lie about him (that he was a navigator on a spice freighter). He knew nothing about him.

 

The closest he ever comes to revenge was when he starts shooting at Vader after he sees him kill Ben.

[Jaavik]

The reason why LucasArts put Maul in the Clone Wars, is that they realized the mistake of killing off Maul in the first movie. If they had realized their mistake, they would have kept him in the second, or third movie.

 

Stories, especially ones as large as a saga, will evolve. Characters always become popular (such as Boba Fett), but most good storytellers won't keep someone alive simply because they are liked.

 

Maul was initially brought back with the exact same look in the Expanded Univers (books). Lucas pretty much borrowed the idea from the other writer and ran with it. A lot of characters started as EU characters and were brought into the series.

 

Aayla Secura wasn't Lucas' character and he showed her (and killed her) at the end of Episode III and is using her in The Clone Wars. Quinlan Vos is popular in the EU, he was mentioned by name (Master Vos) in Episode III and showed up in The Clone Wars. That character started as a background "extra" in Episode I and one of the EU writers took him and created a story for him.

[Jaavik]

Maul is more powerful than Obi Wan at that time, he was beaten because he was caught off guard.

 

And it's Padawan for Jedi, not apprentice.

 

My theory is basically that he got over-confident. After he knocked Obi-Wan down the pit, he just starts swiping his blade at the ledge, making sparks. He didn't see this Padawan as a threat and he started playing with him.

[Aurbere]

My theory is basically that he got over-confident. After he knocked Obi-Wan down the pit, he just starts swiping his blade at the ledge, making sparks. He didn't see this Padawan as a threat and he started playing with him.

 

Yes. Maul has killed many skilled Jedi and he considered Obi-Wan no threat after killing Qui-Gon. And why shouldn't he. Qui-Gon was a great duelist, maybe not so great in such close quarters, and Maul probably felt proud of himself.