DPS Scoundrel adds Nothing Unique to a Warzone

[TonyDragonflame]

Scrapper/Concealment are the absolute worst team fighters in the game.

 

.

 

Disagree.

Scrappers are fine for hide defend turrets in Alderaan/NC, and for plant bombs on doors in Void.

On Huttball, yeah, scrappers mostly crap.

[Archaar]

....12345 Edited May 14, 2012 by Archaar

[Ich_Bin]

Disagree.

Scrappers are fine for hide defend turrets in Alderaan/NC, and for plant bombs on doors in Void.

On Huttball, yeah, scrappers mostly crap.

 

Assassins/Shadows can still do it better.

Nobody is saying that Scrappers cannot do anything useful, but the argument is that they do nothing that other classes can't do much better.

[Coldin]

Assassins/Shadows can still do it better.

Nobody is saying that Scrappers cannot do anything useful, but the argument is that they do nothing that other classes can't do much better.

 

Basically this. And they don't really offer any unique abilities that aren't replicated by another class.

[Ahhmyface]

Woah woah woah. Assassins are capable of great burst and have better sustained damage than an ops/scoundrel. Gunslingers and Vanguards put out more burst and sustained than ops/scoundrels do. One burst ability every 12 seconds and crap dps the rest of the time does not make for a good class. Just so you know, my marauders annihilate is a similar cool down and it does 900 more baseline damage than my ops backstab. (Both in mix of BM/WH gear) The simple fact is that ops/scoundrels are suffering with terrible on target time and terrible sustained dps when they are on target.

 

Let's not talk about marauders, that messes up the whole comparison, because everybody knows they take the dps cake. Operative burst and sustained dps is better than assassin, by a fair margin. I have 4 high damage attacks, but I can only use maul once, shock once, discharge once, and assassinate once, within a burst window. At most that will stack up to 16k damage if im fighting a total idiot with no cc, or defensive cds, and that's if I crit on all 4. I also don't frontload, which means the opponent can see my burst coming a mile away and take appropriate counter measures. Then I have around 8-10 seconds before they are off cd, but I am out of force, so it doesn't matter. I auto-attack until my force regens and then I try again.

 

It's easy to observe in PvE, and It's easy to see the dps numbers at the end of the warzone. Since both deception sins and operatives are single target dmg classes, the average op will outdamage a deception sin.

 

I suggest trying to play other classes because your perception is very off.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Xaearth]

Let's not talk about marauders, that messes up the whole comparison, because everybody knows they take the dps cake. Operative burst and sustained dps is better than assassin, by a fair margin. I have 4 high damage attacks, but I can only use maul once, shock once, discharge once, and assassinate once, within a burst window. At most that will stack up to 16k damage if im fighting a total idiot with no cc, or defensive cds, and that's if I crit on all 4. I also don't frontload, which means the opponent can see my burst coming a mile away and take appropriate counter measures. Then I have around 8-10 seconds before they are off cd, but I am out of force, so it doesn't matter. I auto-attack until my force regens and then I try again.

 

It's easy to observe in PvE, and It's easy to see the dps numbers at the end of the warzone. Since both deception sins and operatives are single target dmg classes, the average op will outdamage a deception sin.

 

I suggest trying to play other classes because your perception is very off.

 

Your analysis of Deception Assassins, besides being a gross oversimplification of the class (out of force for an assassin, especially Deception specced, is trivial compared to out of energy for Op), assumes button mashing instead of actually taking the time and effort to head-fake your opponent.

 

Deception is aptly named. Its greatest strength is the predictability of its burst.

[Ich_Bin]

Let's not talk about marauders, that messes up the whole comparison, because everybody knows they take the dps cake. Operative burst and sustained dps is better than assassin, by a fair margin. I have 4 high damage attacks, but I can only use maul once, shock once, discharge once, and assassinate once, within a burst window. At most that will stack up to 16k damage if im fighting a total idiot with no cc, or defensive cds, and that's if I crit on all 4. I also don't frontload, which means the opponent can see my burst coming a mile away and take appropriate counter measures. Then I have around 8-10 seconds before they are off cd, but I am out of force, so it doesn't matter. I auto-attack until my force regens and then I try again.

 

It's easy to observe in PvE, and It's easy to see the dps numbers at the end of the warzone. Since both deception sins and operatives are single target dmg classes, the average op will outdamage a deception sin.

 

I suggest trying to play other classes because your perception is very off.

 

You should play an Operative before inventing theories about their burst potential.

I can tell you that I play both (Assassin and Operative) and their single target burst damage is not even in the same league. The Assassin is far better. Their burst is bigger, on demand and they also have a finisher, while the Operative's burst damage is frontloaded.

 

Possibly bigger dmg numbers on the warzone scoreboard usually come due to the Operative's AoE (Orbital Strike, Grenade) and DoT damage. The Operative does better AoE damage while the Assassin has better burst, better survivability, better utility and of course better sustained damage.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[hulkweazel]

Respeccing to healing might be an option, if you felt like regrinding for medic gear..... Actually grinding back through two tiers for medic gear, since you are locked in now.

Nah, Scoundel medic gear is pure crap. Full Sawbones spec here with only two pieces of Medic gear

[Nrrrdking]

Ok that's it. I'm rolling a scoundrel tonight. I have to see this for myself. There has to be SOMETHING useful about the dps scoundrel.

[Ossos]

Ok that's it. I'm rolling a scoundrel tonight. I have to see this for myself. There has to be SOMETHING useful about the dps scoundrel.

 

When attacked by a Scoundrel/Operative, they are an after though. I'll actually engage another player before engaging the Scoundrel/Operative because they're flies...nothing more than a nusance.

[Xaearth]

Ok that's it. I'm rolling a scoundrel tonight. I have to see this for myself. There has to be SOMETHING useful about the dps scoundrel.

 

Dirty kick. For the lulz.

That's pretty much it.

 

"Operatives: We roll bads. :cool:"

"Scoundrels: And we kick 'em in the 'nads! :o"

Edited May 14, 2012 by Xaearth

[Ich_Bin]

Ok that's it. I'm rolling a scoundrel tonight. I have to see this for myself. There has to be SOMETHING useful about the dps scoundrel.

 

The thing is that in order to really see the weaknesses of the class, you would have to play one at lvl 50. As far as I can tell the class is doing fine in the 10-49 bracket for the most part.

[Metalmac]

It's not really about damage. Lots of classes can dish out a big chunk of damage in a short amount of time. It's not that hard when using relics and adrenals.

 

The issue is that a DPS scoundrel doesn't really give anything else to a warzone that's unique. Stealth, and all it's abilities are covered by shadows. Most other classes have armor debuffs they apply directly to the target, where the DPS scroundrel get's an armor penetration buff instead. Knights and Consulars both have great maneuverability across a warzone. Sentinels have the best defensive cooldowns in the game, and can vanish more often than Scoundrel. Gunslingers and Sages have superior range on attacks and provide steady DPS along with some impressive burst.

 

I could go on and on. But basically, DPS scoundrels don't offer much unique to a warzone. The burst from their opening attacks just isn't that impressive these days against similarly geared opponents, and that burst highly revolves around getting one positional stealth attack to strike. Other classes have burst that is much more reliable, and in some cases, hits harder.

 

Hopefully the devs will look at this and make some adjustments, and make the DPS spec of scoundrels a bit more useful to the group dynamic.

 

You really do not know how to play one as effectively as you should.

1. When your team has ball you stealth to end and have them throw you the ball.

2. Gank healers and keep them locked down. Best class in the game for this.

3. If you can always have 2 Scounderls work as one they can just move around and kill everything one at time.

4. Stand in Stealth next to Fire Pit and wait for them to cross. Hit Dodge and run behind them and flace plant them in the fire and then Dirty Kick them and move out of fire. Be sure to stand behind the piller so they do not see you to soon.

5. Go gank each enemy player as they come out of the Respawn room.

 

These are just a few that drive me crazy as a Sage.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Metalmac

[Antipodes]

Yup. It's not that Scoundrels are a bad class, but that they don't bring much to the table compared to the OP classes. Assassins are better for objective play, while Marauder/PT are better for group fight.

 

Scoundrel openers are still incredibly scary. It's just that after the opener they are nothing special. It seems backward that their interrupt has a 12 second cooldown whereas the 6-8 seconds for Marauders/PT.

 

I would really like the class to be redesigned to be more "slick". Many of the classes have obvious WoW influences, but add their own style and flare to keep it fun. I had fun with my Warrior and Priest in WoW, and I have fun with my Sentinel and Sage in SWTOR. Rogues on the other hand are way more fun and stylish compared to Scoundrels.

 

My suggested changes are:

 

1) Replace "Sawed Off" with "Fletchet Round" and make the ability automatic with every Backblast/Shootfirst with 0 energy cost.

2) Reduce Shoot First's damage by 50%.

3) New 31 point talent that is similar to Rogue's Shadowstep. Teleports the Scoundrel behind the character and gives a buff to use Shoot First outside of stealth with 20% extra damage.

4) Dodge now makes the Scoundrel immune to snares, roots, knockbacks, and grips for the duration it is up.

5) Increase the interrupt cooldown of Mara/PT to 10 seconds. Decrease the interrupt cooldown of Scoundrels to 8 seconds.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Antipodes

[Caeliux]

Alot of nonsense in this thread, don't know where to begin.

[TheronFett]

The issue is that a DPS scoundrel doesn't really give anything else to a warzone that's unique. Stealth, and all it's abilities are covered by shadows.

 

Marauders and Sentinels are overpowered. This, and other breaking news at 11.

[Antipodes]

Marauders and Sentinels are overpowered. This, and other breaking news at 11.

 

Powertechs and Vanguards are also overpowered. This, and other random worthless comments from you to come.

[Coldin]

You really do not know how to play one as effectively as you should.

1. When your team has ball you stealth to end and have them throw you the ball.

2. Gank healers and keep them locked down. Best class in the game for this.

3. If you can always have 2 Scounderls work as one they can just move around and kill everything one at time.

4. Stand in Stealth next to Fire Pit and wait for them to cross. Hit Dodge and run behind them and flace plant them in the fire and then Dirty Kick them and move out of fire. Be sure to stand behind the piller so they do not see you to soon.

5. Go gank each enemy player as they come out of the Respawn room.

 

These are just a few that drive me crazy as a Sage.

 

1. Covered by Shadows. Also Sentinels if they use Force Camo. And pretty much anyone else as long as they're not harassed.

2. I'd argue a Knight can do this better. Force Leap means they rarely get distance, and can interrupt more often on heals.

3. 2v1's don't count. Most classes will own someone 2v1.

4. Shadows do this better. Especially tank shadows who can pull someone into the fire. And if we're talking about hiding behind the pillar, any class can do that.

5. Only works if they all come out 1 by 1. And eventually this strategy will fail because your cooldowns will be down, and theirs will be up. Also, most classes can also do this.

 

I still haven't heard anything unique a DPS scoundrel brings to a warzone.

[EnddGame]

another thing i thought might be appropriate here my concealment op did not break the 2.5k damage medal till level 30ish and i got it a with stim+relic+adrenal (fully modded orange gear for my level plus a purple earpiece and blue implants so it wasnt a gear issue). my gunslinger and my shadow both got that medal @ lvl 10 so to say that the ops opener pre 50 is still ok is basically bs since you have to have a cunning stim+power or surge relic+ power adrenal to get a 2.9k crit. i love playing my op but after playing around with the other stealth class and the opposite advanced class i could have chosen it just gets depressing picking off what others have left for dead. But since ops can still pick off those that are left for dead i guess this means ops need another nerf. cant have them doing that now can we

[Coldin]

another thing i thought might be appropriate here my concealment op did not break the 2.5k damage medal till level 30ish and i got it a with stim+relic+adrenal (fully modded orange gear for my level plus a purple earpiece and blue implants so it wasnt a gear issue). my gunslinger and my shadow both got that medal @ lvl 10 so to say that the ops opener pre 50 is still ok is basically bs since you have to have a cunning stim+power or surge relic+ power adrenal to get a 2.9k crit. i love playing my op but after playing around with the other stealth class and the opposite advanced class i could have chosen it just gets depressing picking off what others have left for dead. But since ops can still pick off those that are left for dead i guess this means ops need another nerf. cant have them doing that now can we

 

Backblast in my case hits nearly as hard as Shoot First these days. Which is rather silly. Basically only 1k damage difference. I'd say it's useless, but it's still another high damage skill that's not putting Backblast on cooldown.

[robotkar]

It's not really about damage. Lots of classes can dish out a big chunk of damage in a short amount of time. It's not that hard when using relics and adrenals.

 

The issue is that a DPS scoundrel doesn't really give anything else to a warzone that's unique. Stealth, and all it's abilities are covered by shadows. Most other classes have armor debuffs they apply directly to the target, where the DPS scroundrel get's an armor penetration buff instead. Knights and Consulars both have great maneuverability across a warzone. Sentinels have the best defensive cooldowns in the game, and can vanish more often than Scoundrel. Gunslingers and Sages have superior range on attacks and provide steady DPS along with some impressive burst.

 

I could go on and on. But basically, DPS scoundrels don't offer much unique to a warzone. The burst from their opening attacks just isn't that impressive these days against similarly geared opponents, and that burst highly revolves around getting one positional stealth attack to strike. Other classes have burst that is much more reliable, and in some cases, hits harder.

 

Hopefully the devs will look at this and make some adjustments, and make the DPS spec of scoundrels a bit more useful to the group dynamic.

 

Disappearing act CD to 1min

Smuggle duration to 30sec

Fletchette round 30% armor penetration buff before the shoot first, not after!

 

These three could help, but i doubt that anyone would listen

[TonyDragonflame]

Faster any shotgun animations - Backblast and Tendon blast - from current 1.5 sec to 0.2-0.5 sec.

Faster blaster whip and sucker punch animations too.

 

All these anumations probably good for PVE speed of fight, but not for PVP speed of fight.

[Ahhmyface]

You should play an Operative before inventing theories about their burst potential.

I can tell you that I play both (Assassin and Operative) and their single target burst damage is not even in the same league. The Assassin is far better. Their burst is bigger, on demand and they also have a finisher, while the Operative's burst damage is frontloaded.

 

Possibly bigger dmg numbers on the warzone scoreboard usually come due to the Operative's AoE (Orbital Strike, Grenade) and DoT damage. The Operative does better AoE damage while the Assassin has better burst, better survivability, better utility and of course better sustained damage.

 

No. You have to be a bad operative if you don't outdamage deception assassins. It's not even a contest. Burst isn't bigger, isn't on demand, but yes, we have a finisher, thank christ, because we have no force left to use a normal attack.

 

I will stand by this fact: Op burst and sustained damage are both higher than deception assassin, at least at high level play. Tournaments confirm this, video footage confirms this, and I guarantee a combat log on a pvp test dummy will confirm this.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Owlhowl]

I totally Disagree with the title and couldn't agree "More" with the post on "space".

 

They force players back away from objectives which gives your players a chance to focus targets. Trust me no one stands still and lets a scoundrel or operative have free dps on them.

 

If you play for medals then scoundrel does not really add much i agree. But if you play to WIN then it has to be the best utility class in the game.

 

Stealth at Doors/Objectives. Stealth at line on Huttball "great for people to either pass to you or Intercede to you"

Focus targetting healers or Key figures like ball carriers. fooling people into thinking only one player is at a base thus the opposing team wasting men and resources going that way... and my personal Favourite working together with a 2nd operative or scoundrel, you just one shot anything and i do mean anything.

Misdirection and Snaring. Stealthing on a group of 3/4 players steaming towards an objective and using flash bang to snare them all for several seconds.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Owlhowl
add extra sentence

[Dmasterr]

I totally Disagree with the title and couldn't agree "More" with the post on "space".

 

They force players back away from objectives which gives your players a chance to focus targets. Trust me no one stands still and lets a scoundrel or operative have free dps on them.

 

If you play for medals then scoundrel does not really add much i agree. But if you play to WIN then it has to be the best utility class in the game.

 

Stealth at Doors/Objectives. Stealth at line on Huttball "great for people to either pass to you or Intercede to you"

Focus targetting healers or Key figures like ball carriers. fooling people into thinking only one player is at a base thus the opposing team wasting men and resources going that way... and my personal Favourite working together with a 2nd operative or scoundrel, you just one shot anything and i do mean anything.

Misdirection and Snaring. Stealthing on a group of 3/4 players steaming towards an objective and using flash bang to snare them all for several seconds.

 

First of all, assassins do that and are much better at it.

 

Second of all and the reason nobody should take you seriously , EVER. Flash bang is NOT a snare.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Dmasterr