DPS Scoundrel adds Nothing Unique to a Warzone

[Squatdog_nz]

A bit off topic, but I refuse to let this misinformation stand.

 

Operative/Scoundrel healers were NOT buffed. Their 31 pt ability was made to actually be viable rather than a hindrance - in other words making hybrids no longer outright better than full spec, as the devs have done several times to other classes - and they got a few quality of life changes.

 

The reason people think they're "overpowered" is because of the overwhelming number of DPS that fully believe healing shouldn't exist in a warzone and whined for the other two healers to get nerfed into the ground.

 

And yet those same people complain that there's too much damage flying around now.

 

LOL...what?

 

Operative heals got numerous buffs, while Concealment got nerfed into the ground.

[Xaearth]

LOL...what?

 

Operative heals got numerous buffs, while Concealment got nerfed into the ground.

 

People say the same thing about all these buffs Marauders got...

I wonder how many people actually bothered to read, much less understand, the 1.2 patch notes.

[Squatdog_nz]

People say the same thing about all these buffs Marauders got...

I wonder how many people actually bothered to read, much less understand, the 1.2 patch notes.

 

They made both MUCH better?

[Coldin]

Just for perspective, the scoundrel healing buffs were

 

One extra Upper Hand. Only available when specced high into the healing tree.

Longer Duration Upper Hand. Tier 2 of Healer tree.

Reduced Cost on AOE Heal.

Increased Healing on AOE Heal, and ticks over a shorter period of time.

 

The first two were mostly quality of life changes. It's ideal for a healer to sit on one Upper Hand, so this basically just gave that extra upper hand for that purpose. The AOE heal changes were necessary to make it worth using.

[Aikiyc]

Just for perspective, the scoundrel healing buffs were

 

One extra Upper Hand. Only available when specced high into the healing tree.

Longer Duration Upper Hand. Tier 2 of Healer tree.

Reduced Cost on AOE Heal.

Increased Healing on AOE Heal, and ticks over a shorter period of time.

 

The first two were mostly quality of life changes. It's ideal for a healer to sit on one Upper Hand, so this basically just gave that extra upper hand for that purpose. The AOE heal changes were necessary to make it worth using.

 

The cost for Recuperative Nanotech, outside of the set bonus that already existed before 1.2, was reduced? Uh huh. Right. Also. The increased healing was marginal at best, geared towards making RN a 'bursty' HoT, instead of a long term buffer HoT (ie bringing it in line with the two AoEs for sorcerers and mercs). We were not 'buffed,' like the community seems to think.

 

The reason everyone thinks we're OP is because we weren't nerfed alongside the others. Good players behind a sorcerer and a mercenary can match an operative pace for pace in their own ways. But people selectively ignore that.

[Coldin]

The cost for Recuperative Nanotech, outside of the set bonus that already existed before 1.2, was reduced?

 

Yes, it was. Homegrown Pharmacology now reduces the energy cost of Kolto Cloud 2 per rank. And any healer would take that talent for the increased healing to Slow Release Medpac and Emergency Medpac.

 

And yes. Overall, the buffs weren't that significant. It's just the other healers were reduced in effectiveness. Scoundrel healers do have the best mobility while healing though.

 

This thread isn't about healers however. It's about DPS spec scoundrels.

[ShadowOfVey]

I like having one good concealment operative on my team honestly. There is one thing they do very well, and that's assisting the rest of the team at quickly taking out a target before healers can react/keep the target up.

 

I don't overvalue burst but it is a mistake to undervalue it too. No one does more consistently high damage in those first few seconds on their target than an operative and that's often just what is needed to help take down a troublesome target in a brawl amidst healing.

 

The concealment operatives most valuable skill, more so than other classes, is selecting the right target to attack. When that is handled correctly, they are a worthy addition to a team. There are several quite good ones on my server. If I'm at full health and they just open on me with no support, they don't really worry me. However they rarely do that. Somehow they always seem to be there to open on me right when I don't want to see them, which is when they are at their best. The better you are at finding those opportunities (and they are all over the place), the better an asset you are to your team.

 

They also scale very excellently with gear. PVP gearing in this game does not scale you up as much defensively as it does offensively (see: all the posts about time to kill being too short). Now I know the exception is people that go big on tank gear with super high endurance but lets face it, that's the minority of targets. A war hero geared operative is more dangerous to other war hero geared players than a BM geared operative is to other BM geared players. The chunk of health you'll lose at the beginning of the fight is going to be bigger percentage wise. Thus the better gear really adds to your "utility" where the utility is having more optimum targets available to choose from that you feel you can jump in to quickly take out since you do more opening damage.

Edited May 13, 2012 by ShadowOfVey

[Wintervoid]

Yes, it was. Homegrown Pharmacology now reduces the energy cost of Kolto Cloud 2 per rank. And any healer would take that talent for the increased healing to Slow Release Medpac and Emergency Medpac.

 

And yes. Overall, the buffs weren't that significant. It's just the other healers were reduced in effectiveness. Scoundrel healers do have the best mobility while healing though.

 

This thread isn't about healers however. It's about DPS spec scoundrels.

 

 

Sawbones were also Nerfed, although really it was just a bug fix. Triage used to heal for 2x the amount that it is supposed to on the Scoundrel. It made it our most efficient heal, and helped our healing on the move.

 

We also received an undocumented buff. We no longer are locked out of healing/receiving healing for 10 seconds after using Disappearing Act, just locked out while remaining in stealth. Now Disappearing act is a viable escape for a Sawbones.

 

Overall, I feel we are about the same level as before, the bar has just been lowered.

[CrunkShizzle]

People say the same thing about all these buffs Marauders got...

I wonder how many people actually bothered to read, much less understand, the 1.2 patch notes.

 

i dont remember seeing any buffs to operative/scoundrel dps in 1.2

 

OH OH WAIT WAIT WAIT HOLD ON A MINUTE HERE

 

a 5 percent increase on 1 skill that has a 12 second cooldown.yep,there we go folks.a big difference thats going to make.........not

 

the sad reality though about scoundrels/operatives is.i think ive actually heard more people complain about the lack of a giggle on there upper hand/tactical advantage proc then i have the areas needed looked at the most

Edited May 13, 2012 by CrunkShizzle

[Aikiyc]

Yes, it was. Homegrown Pharmacology now reduces the energy cost of Kolto Cloud 2 per rank. And any healer would take that talent for the increased healing to Slow Release Medpac and Emergency Medpac.

 

And yes. Overall, the buffs weren't that significant. It's just the other healers were reduced in effectiveness. Scoundrel healers do have the best mobility while healing though.

 

This thread isn't about healers however. It's about DPS spec scoundrels.

 

Ah, right. Missed that. Was thinking of something else apparently.

 

I like having one good concealment operative on my team honestly. There is one thing they do very well, and that's assisting the rest of the team at quickly taking out a target before healers can react/keep the target up. ((and the rest of his post))

 

Agreed, pretty much.

[Xblackheart]

Respeccing to healing might be an option, if you felt like regrinding for medic gear..... Actually grinding back through two tiers for medic gear, since you are locked in now.

 

Concealment has other problems besides just the inability to last through a fight long enough to kill someone without waiting until every cool-down is up. (which is boring as crap, but if you don't you will die, probably before your target does.) The netcode in this game makes positional attacks extremely chancy. What other class has positional attacks? What other class has it's main attack as a positional, out of stealth? Getting into position without being uncovered by aoe, spotted, or otherwise screwed is one thing, but doing it only to find that your target just isn't facing the way your client is drawing him, or is 5 feet tot the right is just insult to injury.

 

At least lethality doesn't have that problem, but it has other issues that aren't being discussed here.

[CrunkShizzle]

ive never really had any problems in my expierance playin a scoundrel with positional attacks

 

but i dont know,maybe your talkin in pvp.cuz i havent really started pvpin yet.im thinkin about it though,im lvl 20 and i know the 20-40 pvp gear i used on my main and it was pretty good

[Coldin]

ive never really had any problems in my expierance playin a scoundrel with positional attacks

 

but i dont know,maybe your talkin in pvp.cuz i havent really started pvpin yet.im thinkin about it though,im lvl 20 and i know the 20-40 pvp gear i used on my main and it was pretty good

 

Scoundrels perform better in the 1-49 bracket due to bolster. And yes, in PVP, getting positional attacks is more difficult. There's lag, and usually another player isn't exactly where they appear. This is especially true when using roots and stuns. Also, moving players in general are harder to get positional on. NPCs largely stay in place, and will face away at a tank.

[Daiyukie]

The only problem I've ever encountered that could be classed as lag are the knockback positionings. If I am moving and they are moving there's NO way they are flying where I want them to. If only one of us is moving, preferably me, it's more reliable but still prone to knocking them diagonally instead of straight a Double thread- Damn wireless network keeps dropping, pick one to delete head, for example.

 

Other than that, get better internet and a better computer and these lag problems vanish.

[Xblackheart]

Lag isn't the issue. There are known issues with certain video cards (cough nvidia) not drawing objects where the sever reports them to be. There are also known issues with the netcode making wonky predictions about where it should be drawing a moving object. Combine those two factors together and running an i7 with 16 gigs of RAM and a jet engine vid card on a T3 won't help you.

[mikedee]

It's funny in 1.2 on my sage I had to change spec and play style. Yet we expect to play our ops/scoundrel the same spec and way? The class has two legit specs and one decent one. Your not rogues you can heal also l2p.

Don't forget the glitch in damage before 1.2. That should have been fixed so you guys didn't actually think we should 3 shot everyone. Sorry we can't 3-4 shot tanks...Proper rotation/stuns make any other class pretty simple.

[khouj]

Respeccing to healing might be an option, if you felt like regrinding for medic gear..... Actually grinding back through two tiers for medic gear, since you are locked in now.

The gear you want for conceal is the same as the gear you want for medic. Edited May 13, 2012 by khouj

[Xaearth]

The concealment operatives most valuable skill, more so than other classes, is selecting the right target to attack. When that is handled correctly, they are a worthy addition to a team. There are several quite good ones on my server. If I'm at full health and they just open on me with no support, they don't really worry me. However they rarely do that. Somehow they always seem to be there to open on me right when I don't want to see them, which is when they are at their best. The better you are at finding those opportunities (and they are all over the place), the better an asset you are to your team.

 

The problem is, by this very fact, you're a hindrance to your team. While the Operative/Scoundrel is looking for the opportune target, their team is fighting a warzone with a man down.

 

Then when the Op/Scoundrel strikes, sure they can take down their target if they chose wisely, but, unless they're out on the fringes and attacking a solo target, chances are they just traded their life for that of their target - unless of course they're only attacking once every 2 minutes, which just adds insult to injury.

 

Combine that with the fact that your team was already fighting a man down before you opened, and you're looking at a Concealment/Scrapper on your team as a no-win situation.

 

I like having one good concealment operative on my team honestly. There is one thing they do very well, and that's assisting the rest of the team at quickly taking out a target before healers can react/keep the target up.

 

I don't overvalue burst but it is a mistake to undervalue it too. No one does more consistently high damage in those first few seconds on their target than an operative and that's often just what is needed to help take down a troublesome target in a brawl amidst healing.

 

The question then becomes, how valuable is that burst compared to fighting a man down whenever that burst cannot be used to optimal success?

 

You yourself admitted that an Op/Scoundrel opening on you near full health without support doesn't scare you.

 

Now, I'm not saying that Op/Scoundrels should be able to insta-gank people from full, but let's consider this for a moment - you're essentially saying that Op/Scoundrel burst is useless except in 2 (or more) v 1 situations. Even if that means someone else went 1v1 against you and lost, and the Op/Scoundrel smells blood in the water and strikes, they're just cashing the check someone else wrote - it's a teamfight.

 

Scrapper/Concealment are the absolute worst team fighters in the game.

 

They bring no team synergy (armor debuffs - their armor pen is self only) and no group utility.

Their damage relies on being able to keep a target within melee range via stuns... if someone else is pumping resolve, it often has a significant effect on their burst potential.

Stealth is slow. If their team is focus firing without using the Op/Scoundrel as the initiator, there's a pretty good chance the fight will be over by the time you get in position.

If the team is using the Op/Scoundrel as the initiator... well hope they don't mind waiting on respawn or re-stealth every 2mins.

 

I could go on, but I think that's enough to get the point across.

The point is Op/Scoundrel aren't the only class capable of bursting down people 2v1, but they are one of the worst at it, even if you assume that they have the absolute best burst potential in the game.

 

Yes, you don't always see them coming. You also don't always see a pull coming, or a team of charge happy Marauders/Sentinels or Juggernauts/Guardians, or a Sniper/Gunslinger that somehow got behind your lines due to your oblivious teammates and just Ambush-punted you into the fire/acid.

[CrunkShizzle]

If dps Scoundrels ever get buffed they will just team up and stunlock people until they unsub. Everyone knows that!!

 

i know right

[CrunkShizzle]

Other than that, get better internet and a better computer and these lag problems vanish.

 

ya,let me just pull the money out of my *** to waste on better internet and a better computer because of a video game

 

no thanks

[Coldin]

ya,let me just pull the money out of my *** to waste on better internet and a better computer because of a video game

 

no thanks

 

Not that it would do any good. When everyone I talk to has the same issues regarding lag in the game, namely the server reporting incorrect positioning then catching up, there's a problem.

[Retro_Chrome]

they need to buff marauders and tank assassins they are incredibly hard to play and have sooo many weaknesses, smugglers are also way over powered and shouldn't be able to burst anyone down from stealth from 100-90% that is ridiculous.

 

btw healing is also overpowered and vanguards need to stop complaining they wear heavy armor and have a red bubble that protects them for like 45 seconds from 75% damage(heavy armor as well) also vanguard self healing is ridiculous i saw a vanguard on my server hit top heals the other day .

 

sorcs need faster activation times on there abilities as well that lightning takes way to long to hit my target compared to project, project needs to get a much bigger animation time its so unfair.

 

commando healing is by far the easiest healing now please nerf them again whatever you did i cant kill one solo .

 

scoundrel healing needs more maneuverability and should be able to heal from stealth

 

 

also guardians and juggs need to be able to cast the AOE slow far more often its pathetic how long it takes for them to recast it, also they need another leap or a pull its so hard to stay in melee range as a guardian. also they should have the same stealth as sentinels

[ShadowOfVey]

they need to buff marauders and tank assassins they are incredibly hard to play and have sooo many weaknesses, smugglers are also way over powered and shouldn't be able to burst anyone down from stealth from 100-90% that is ridiculous.

 

btw healing is also overpowered and vanguards need to stop complaining they wear heavy armor and have a red bubble that protects them for like 45 seconds from 75% damage(heavy armor as well) also vanguard self healing is ridiculous i saw a vanguard on my server hit top heals the other day .

 

sorcs need faster activation times on there abilities as well that lightning takes way to long to hit my target compared to project, project needs to get a much bigger animation time its so unfair.

 

commando healing is by far the easiest healing now please nerf them again whatever you did i cant kill one solo .

 

scoundrel healing needs more maneuverability and should be able to heal from stealth

 

 

also guardians and juggs need to be able to cast the AOE slow far more often its pathetic how long it takes for them to recast it, also they need another leap or a pull its so hard to stay in melee range as a guardian. also they should have the same stealth as sentinels

 

Not to mention those snipers that just run all over the warzone in cover. No one can ever catch up to a sniper. If one gets the ball in huttball you might as well just go mid to get the ball after they score, no one is catching them.

[Vales]

Not to mention those snipers that just run all over the warzone in cover. No one can ever catch up to a sniper. If one gets the ball in huttball you might as well just go mid to get the ball after they score, no one is catching them.

 

Shhhh do not tell him our super WZ wide AoE Flashbang and our Leg Shot hits all targets in a 50 yard radius. Also cover makes immune to all CC and we roll from cover point to cover point over the whole WZ. True story!

[Ich_Bin]

[...]

 

Xaearth, very good post. There is really nothing to add except that even the assumption that Ops/Scoundrels do great burst is a bit of a stretch because almost every other dps class (except for Sorcs) has got better burst potential.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Ich_Bin