Sentinel/Marauder - The Problem is NOT DPS.

[TheronFett]

best offensive with the best defensive cooldowns. thats the problem

 

QFT.

 

High DPS + High Defense = OP

 

Someone earlier said it too. Marauder/Sentinel DPS is fine IMHO. They're a melee DPS class, so they should be able to put out a crap-ton of damage and deal it quickly. They also have medium armor and low utility. However, of the top 5 defensive abilities in the game, Mara/Sent has the top 3.

[Shardas]

FYI, not every single Mara/Sent out there is Anhilation/Watchman specced...

 

Thank you.

 

I'm not going to debate for or against Sentinel/Marauder nerfs anymore, as it serves no purpose. I'll just lean back, wait for Bioware's next move and enjoy PvP in the mean time. And after whatever steps Bioware might take. And I'll laugh about everyone who still whines about getting killed by us if we actually get nerved.

I play a combat Sentinel so there you go.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Shardas

[Memo-]

People also seem to think that Marauders or Sentinels can't die when they have activated UR/GBTF. Well, you're wrong, as they can. It has happened to me numerous times. Of course it's just bad luck in terms of timing, but it does NOT make you invincible. Also, getting healed immediately after using the skill? That's called teamwork. That's not OP, that's good playing.

 

The fastest my Focus-spec Sentinel has killed anyone, was a Sorcerer yesterday, who went down from full health in about 2 seconds. Why? Because I max-buffed. Used Inspiration, Warzone Adrenal and +405 Power War Hero Relic. This usually means I make a 4,5k-5,5k Force Sweep, accompanied by the setting up through Force Leap / Zealous Leap and Force Stasis / Force Exhaustion, followed by the other attack from both of those pairs and a Master Strike while waiting the cooldown of Force Sweep to roll over. Also, he didn't get to use Force Shroud in time.

 

And I wan't to emphasize: that was MAX-BUFFED. That isn't anywhere near my average performance, just resources put to optimal use at an optimal time. The same applies for the defensive buffs. Rebuke doesn't cover much damage and the damage return isn't that great. Saber Ward has insane cooldown in contrast to it's benefits. And Guarded by the Force obviously halves my HP, so have to be careful with that. I'm one of the lucky ones, though, with Focus-spec and 4 Battlemaster-pieces. This gets Guarded by the Force's cooldown to 45sec, which is good. And this is only available for Focus-specs, which I understand aren't that popular.

 

From where I stand, Sentinel is nowhere near OP. It's about putting the limited resources we have into good and well-timed use - and also having a good team backing you up.

 

And one last thing: I feel like before1.2 Sentinels were totally underpowered when compared to EVERY OTHER CLASS in the game. Payback time. 8)

Edited May 11, 2012 by Memo-

[Vales]

No, they just don't take it as personally when they die. They understand their class role, which is to be right in the thick of things, killing and dying over and over.

 

If they would just die though....

 

People also seem to think that Marauders or Sentinels can't die when they have activated UR/GBTF. Well, you're wrong, as they can. It has happened to me numerous times. Of course it's just bad luck in terms of timing, but it does NOT make you invincible. Also, getting healed immediately after using the skill? That's called teamwork. That's not OP, that's good playing.

 

The fastest my Focus-spec Sentinel has killed anyone, was a Sorcerer yesterday, who went down from full health in about 2 seconds. Why? Because I max-buffed. Used Inspiration, Warzone Adrenal and +405 Power War Hero Relic. This usually means I make a 4,5k-5,5k Force Sweep, accompanied by the setting up through Force Leap / Zealous Leap and Force Stasis / Force Exhaustion, followed by the other attack from both of those pairs and a Master Strike while waiting the cooldown of Force Sweep to roll over. Also, he didn't get to use Force Shroud in time.

 

And I wan't to emphasize: that was MAX-BUFFED. That isn't anywhere near my average performance, just resources put to optimal use at an optimal time. The same applies for the defensive buffs. Rebuke doesn't cover much damage and the damage return isn't that great. Saber Ward has insane cooldown in contrast to it's benefits. And Guarded by the Force obviously halves my HP, so have to be careful with that. I'm one of the lucky ones, though, with Focus-spec and 4 Battlemaster-pieces. This gets Guarded by the Force's cooldown to 45sec, which is good. And this is only available for Focus-specs, which I understand aren't that popular.

 

From where I stand, Sentinel is nowhere near OP. It's about putting the limited resources we have into good and well-timed use - and also having a good team backing you up.

 

And one last thing: I feel like before1.2 Sentinels were totally underpowered when compared to EVERY OTHER CLASS in the game. Payback time. 8)

 

So where are my skills that if everything is prefectly lined can kill someone in 2 seconds?

Edited May 11, 2012 by Vales

[Guioki]

Yeah, if you are really concerned about a Mara using UR then getting healed then you need to L2P. Why in god's name would you be attacking the Mara and not the healer? Mara can't taunt, can't guard, can't heal. They have garbage group utility, and as such are one of the lowest kill - priority classes.

 

So you wouldn't mind having your healing received reduced by 99% while GBTF is up then? Since it is of no consequence either way. Basically 1v1 all GBTF is is a skill that makes you live 5 seconds longer, but in group combat it is a skill that gives you a second life.

 

The damage that you deal while it is up is not the issue at all.

[Guioki]

The debate is not whether they are imbalanced/OP, since everyone who doesn't play a mara badly agrees about that. The debate is how to bring them in line.

[kenbenobi]

Sentinel/marauder have too much survability. Bubble and hide in middle of fight. Overall survability is too hight. Thats the problem.

[OpenSorce]

We all know the Sentinel/Marauder are massively overpowered, but the problem could easily be fixed by reducing their defence/armour/HPs (I don't know what it is, but they don't die quickly enough).

 

No. Shut up.

[Odahviin]

Yawn, some of you moaners need to move over to the NEW QQ thread about Powertechs.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=451696

 

Apparently they are where the QQ is these days.

 

All you QQ'ers are soooooooo yesterday.

 

lols

[WhiteDragonSWTOR]

Instead of QQing about Sent/Mar you should wake up and do better math. They don't live any longer than tank class/specs where they have more HP so live the same amount of time as a sent/mar. All you have to do is CC a Sent/Mar and it is over, all they get is ONE cc breaker and it is a 2 min CD. So, once they use their CC baker once they are now screwed for the next 2 min. A cent/Mar might get in 5-7 CC breaks in one WZ. So, most of the game they can't get out of CC's. You CC them and they die fast bc they have medium armor, they might pop those 3 Defensive CDs but they will still die just as fast as a tank (ie Jedi Shadow tank or Guardian tank) and both of those tank classes/specs do a good amount of dmg too. All you guys see and get pissed off about is the fact that you see them with no HP and start QQing bc they don't die ASAP, but instead die 5 sec later. So, they pop that stupid 99% reduction for 5 sec, there is a VERY good chance there 2min CD CC breaker is on CD so just CC them and wait the 5 sec out and kill them with one shot after that. It really isn't that hard. Also, before QQing so much about them you should first play them and find their weaknesses and be able to kill them Edited May 11, 2012 by WhiteDragonSWTOR

[Archaar]

Instead of QQing about Sent/Mar you should wake up and do better math. They don't live any longer than tank class/specs where they have more HP so live the same amount of time as a sent/mar. All you have to do is CC a Sent/Mar and it is over, all they get is ONE cc breaker and it is a 2 min CD. So, once they use their CC baker once they are now screwed for the next 2 min. A cent/Mar might get in 5-7 CC breaks in one WZ. So, most of the game they can't get out of CC's. You CC them and they die fast bc they have medium armor, they might pop those 3 Defensive CDs but they will still die just as fast as a tank (ie Jedi Shadow tank or Guardian tank) and both of those tank classes/specs do a good amount of dmg too. All you guys see and get pissed off about is the fact that you see them with no HP and start QQing bc they don't die ASAP, but instead die 5 sec later. So, they pop that stupid 99% reduction for 5 sec, there is a VERY good chance there 2min CD CC breaker is on CD so just CC them and wait the 5 sec out and kill them with one shot after that. It really isn't that hard. Also, before QQing so much about them you should first play them and find their weaknesses and be able to kill them

 

So what you are saying is, don't QQ about Marauders because they die just as fast as a tank?

[Vetril]

As good old Tyranoc once said:

 

If you cannot kill a marauder you are either:

 

A: Undergeared

 

B: A noob

 

 

Ajunta Pall players can kill marauders. Why cant the rest of you monkeys?

 

So which is it? A or B?

[EugeneYap]

So what you are saying is, don't QQ about Marauders because they die just as fast as a tank?

 

they die a lot faster than any tank class especially when they got jump'ed by assassin/shadow or Scoundrel/Operative in 4 secs

Edited May 11, 2012 by EugeneYap

[Gardalon]

Force shroud also makes you immune to all cc in the game, and since it doesnt cost you half your life it can be used whenever the assassin wants.

 

It actually does not make you immune to all CC. For example, Force Charge roots for 2 seconds and, despite its name, is a melee attack. If Carnage spec both Ravage and Deadly Throw are also Melee attacks that can each root the target for 3 seconds. Roots also are uneffected by resolve. Its funny how few people know this, and how often I'm able to stop Assasins attempting to bolt to the n-zone with Force Shroud/Speed or delay people attempting to stop a cap.

[ahdavis]

After reading half of these posts it is really clear what the problem is. People want to stand there and spam attacks at a sent/marauder and just expect them to die without playing smart. The fact is if you are getting steamrolled by a sent/marauder learn to use your utility instead of being bad and spamming 4-5 buttons like most classes are now use to.

 

Rebuke is up? it goes away if we don't take damage for six seconds, cc us for a few seconds

Leg Slash/ cauterize slow? knock us back

Guarded by the Force? CC us for a few seconds

Force Camo? aoe stun (flash grenade, awe, etc.)

We leap at you to apply dots? pop defensive CD's so we have trouble applying them

Masterstrike? defensive CD's, knock back, sprint away

Finally, and this is not that hard......learn to cleanse DoTs.

 

The fact is that good sents/marauders have had to learn to be effective using 20 spells since level 20. I feel like I am playing a piano half the time and if I miss one thing (I.E hit rebuke when I am not taking damage) then my survivability is substantially decreased. Yes, I have a spell that can help me deal with tons of situations, but that means I need to know how every class plays so I know how to use those effectively.

 

I can literally say that I steamroll bads and have a tough fight against any class that is smart. There are some "gimped" ops/scounds and sorc/sages on my server that are fantastic to fight because they are not stupid. So when I hit Force Camo and you don't aoe stun me, or cc me when I hit Guarded by the Force, yes I am going to beat you because you are terrible like most of the PvP population

 

As many have said, everything is fine, L2P

Edited May 11, 2012 by ahdavis

[Stavroz]

After reading half of these posts it is really clear what the problem is. People want to stand there and spam attacks at a sent/marauder and just expect them to die without playing smart. The fact is if you are getting steamrolled by a sent/marauder learn to use your utility instead of being bad and spamming 4-5 buttons like most classes are now use to.

 

Rebuke is up? it goes away if we don't take damage for six seconds, cc us for a few seconds

Leg Slash/ cauterize slow? knock us back

Guarded by the Force? CC us for a few seconds

Force Camo? aoe stun (flash grenade, awe, etc.)

We leap at you to apply dots? pop defensive CD's so we have trouble applying them

Masterstrike? defensive CD's, knock back, sprint away

Finally, and this is not that hard......learn to cleanse DoTs.

 

The fact is that good sents/marauders have had to learn to be effective using 20 spells since level 20. I feel like I am playing a piano half the time and if I miss one thing (I.E hit rebuke when I am not taking damage) then my survivability is substantially decreased. Yes, I have a spell that can help me deal with tons of situations, but that means I need to know how every class plays so I know how to use those effectively.

 

I can literally say that I steamroll bads and have a tough fight against any class that is smart. There are some "gimped" ops/scounds and sorc/sages on my server that are fantastic to fight because they are not stupid. So when I hit Force Camo and you don't aoe stun me, or cc me when I hit Guarded by the Force, yes I am going to beat you because you are terrible like most of the PvP population

 

As many have said, everything is fine, L2P

 

LOL

 

So basically judging from your post countering a sent/mara requires each and every class to have 2 Knockback 3 stuns and a cleanse force debuffs.

 

Hate to break it to you bud but no class has that....

 

O and then on top of that Mara/sents need to not be exempt from resolve b/c 3 stuns and 2 KBs needed to control them will fill any other classes resolve probably 3 times over.

[Niconogood]

I have no idea why anyone thinks they will be favored in Rateds. Once their defensive cooldowns are gone, they are the easiest class to kill and you don't even have to worry about being kited. Sorcerers/Consulars probably have better "general" survivability than Sentinel/Marauders as a 10% vs 5% defensive chance is far better than having 25% vs 20% armor damage reduction.

 

Infinitely better?

 

If someone hit you 20 times for 10 damage you will take 200 damage. If you dodge 10%, it means you will only get hit for 18 attacks for 180 damage. With a 20% reduction, this equals 144 damage taken.

 

If you dodge 5%, it means you will get hit for 19 attacks for 190 damage. With a 25% reduction, this equals 145 damage taken.

 

0,5% more damage taken is hardly far better...

[Niil]

Any other marauders want to strut around in here professing how they're just awesomesauce and everyone else is terrible and that's why they seem overpowered but they're actually not? I'd like to have a record of it so when the nerfs happen, and they will happen, we can point you back to this thread and have a friendly laugh together about how silly you all were.

 

We get it. People like being overpowered. And most of them are incapable of admitting it. And when it's each classes particular time to be overpowered they say the exact same things marauders are saying in this thread. It's like a sign from the heavens that a pending nerf is incoming. There's a reason other marauders I talk to are telling me they're going to get nerfed and people are constantly complaining about them. It's not because everyone else it out to personally get you. It's because marauders are, in fact, performing far better than *most* other damage dealing AC's in the game. If you're so biased you can't see that, well, I'll see you in here whining when it does happen.

[ahdavis]

LOL

 

So basically judging from your post countering a sent/mara requires each and every class to have 2 Knockback 3 stuns and a cleanse force debuffs.

 

Hate to break it to you bud but no class has that....

 

O and then on top of that Mara/sents need to not be exempt from resolve b/c 3 stuns and 2 KBs needed to control them will fill any other classes resolve probably 3 times over.

 

No, the point was not to say you should have that many stuns and utility spells. the point was that most classes have an ability to counter many aspects of what people are considering to be OP about a sent/marauder and I find that half of the population that QQ's about this never does any of these in a fight.

 

Since I know Scoundrel best aside from a Sentinel here is an example:

 

Rebuke/saberward is being popped, tendon blast and kite for 6 seconds.

Force Camo is active, disappearing and wait to open up all over on them again when they are out.

Gaurded by the Force is up, flash grenade

and you still have "kick" to work in there at some point.

 

Its not my responsibility to fill in the blanks for every class for you, learn your class and stop giving it a bad name.

[Kheg]

best offensive with the best defensive cooldowns. thats the problem

 

I agree, we should most definitely nerf the crap out of Tankassins.

[Odahviin]

It actually does not make you immune to all CC. For example, Force Charge roots for 2 seconds and, despite its name, is a melee attack. If Carnage spec both Ravage and Deadly Throw are also Melee attacks that can each root the target for 3 seconds. Roots also are uneffected by resolve. Its funny how few people know this, and how often I'm able to stop Assasins attempting to bolt to the n-zone with Force Shroud/Speed or delay people attempting to stop a cap.

 

All those roots you speak of belong in the carnage tree and need to be specced into them.

[doctorfirepants]

LOL

 

So basically judging from your post countering a sent/mara requires each and every class to have 2 Knockback 3 stuns and a cleanse force debuffs.

 

Hate to break it to you bud but no class has that....

 

O and then on top of that Mara/sents need to not be exempt from resolve b/c 3 stuns and 2 KBs needed to control them will fill any other classes resolve probably 3 times over.

 

Hate to break it to you bud but he was just giving you a tip on situational awareness. It is what players like you lack and the reason why you come to the forums crying. If you play effectively you won't experience everything that a marauder can unleash and won't have to counter all that. If you stand there spamming like a moron against a marauder then your gonna get shredded.

[Memo-]

So where are my skills that if everything is prefectly lined can kill someone in 2 seconds?

And what class were you?

 

If I want to unleash said max-buff combo, things really have to be looking up. 30 centering needed for Inspiration, which has a 180sec CD. If I don't have that 30 centering, I can always use Valorous Call to conjure them. Oh wait, 90sec CD. I don't even remember the CD of War Hero -relics. Something like 120sec? And warzone adrenals? Another 180sec. Not that easy to come by.

 

Bottomline is, any DPS-spec has combos implemented that can easily be used to wreak havoc, be it in the form of gigantic criticals or sudden dot-deaths. Inspect your tree, see which skills affect each other etc. This is not that hard.

[fungihoujo]

Hate to break it to you bud but he was just giving you a tip on situational awareness. It is what players like you lack and the reason why you come to the forums crying. If you play effectively you won't experience everything that a marauder can unleash and won't have to counter all that. If you stand there spamming like a moron against a marauder then your gonna get shredded.

 

Maybe you should take a tip on learning what abilities other classes have. The marauder- who is used to having an endless supply of CC, escapes, defensive CDs and gap closers- listed all sorts of ways to counter a few of the marauder abilities- without noting that no class actually has enough CC to get through them all.

 

Asking classes to knockback twice? No class can do that. Multiple stuns needed? Not many classes have more than one, and you have forgotten there's a thing called resolve- no surprise you've forgotten when you can have up to 3 roots on very short CDs as a marauder and never have to worry about it- too bad most other classes don't get the same freebies marauders do. Defensive CDs? Most classes get one or two- some get zero.

 

I know, you've been spoiled by free wins as a marauder because you actually have all the utility abilities to do all that stuff- but try playing another class with a single knockback and stun, no defensive CDs and you'll understand.

[Achyllis]

Is the CD on Force Camo 45 seconds? If so that should be a 3 minute skill if not removed altogether.

 

It's silly for the game's primary melee class to have a combat breaking stealth at all.