Sentinel/Marauder - The Problem is NOT DPS.

[Blloodbane]

One DPS class cannot have the best single target damage, best on-demand survive-ability and best self healing. Oh and don't forget a stealth, AoE mezz, Interrupt, healing debuff and two very powerful group buffs in Inspiration and Transcendence.

 

Watchman was OP before 1.2, it only took the expertise changes and one buff to Master Strike to make it more apparent.

 

You did just not say this in seriousness did you?

 

Not only are you doing a 31/31/31 spec but you are lumping them in with other classes and thier trees???

 

please tell me this was a joke...

[Xerain]

thiiiiiis

 

If you're an assassin and can't beat a marauder you're bad.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I guess it is time for us (Sentinels) to reveal the overpowered class of PT. Interestingly, we pointed out issues with them last time and they got nerfed right after it... Time to do so again.... I'm of the opinion that when people cry for nerfs against my class to fire back with fact and evidence over the class that is really overly powerful.

[Tourne]

PT is not OP. it can dish out a crap ton of damage, but as soon as more than 1 person starts attacking them they die very, very, very fast. PT has mediocre defensive cooldowns at best, and none of those cooldowns will help when youre focus-fired

 

That's the key difference to PT versus Mara , lack of serious defensive cooldowns.

 

A PT is shutdown by just ANY other dps going after them or a Tanksin etc...it really doesn't matter what AC. They don't have OMG cooldowns that you need to avoid at all costs- you can just button mash faceroll until they are dead. You are completely free to use whatever attacks you like- they have no immunity to force/tech/dots...white or yellow damage it's all the same. If they are at 4k health...they aren't going to stay there for 6 globals- they will die in one single dps AC crit EVEN if they med pack/kolto overload/shield.

[thepilk]

What has to be kept in mind is that those cooldowns are to also compensate for range and knockback vunerability. for any class that has a knockback, push or displacment, those abilities become "defensive cooldowns" against mauraders by nullifiying their ability to maintain contact.

 

Most people simply say "get rid of them!!!!!!" or want to see them nerfed into uselessness, however in that case mauraders passive defense, or effective range would have to be increased or the class would be unable to compete in pvp.

[SuperSair]

You did just not say this in seriousness did you?

 

Not only are you doing a 31/31/31 spec but you are lumping them in with other classes and thier trees???

 

please tell me this was a joke...

 

You must know nothing about Watchman Sentinels because Watchman gets incredible self healing and everything else is base-line.

[LiveandDieinLA]

That's the key difference to PT versus Mara , lack of serious defensive cooldowns.

 

A PT is shutdown by just ANY other dps going after them or a Tanksin etc...it really doesn't matter what AC. They don't have OMG cooldowns that you need to avoid at all costs- you can just button mash faceroll until they are dead. You are completely free to use whatever attacks you like- they have no immunity to force/tech/dots...white or yellow damage it's all the same. If they are at 4k health...they aren't going to stay there for 6 globals- they will die in one single dps AC crit EVEN if they med pack/kolto overload/shield.

 

Powertechs have offensive CDs instead of defensive CDs. They have the highest damage potential in the game.

[Xerain]

That's the key difference to PT versus Mara , lack of serious defensive cooldowns.

 

A PT is shutdown by just ANY other dps going after them or a Tanksin etc...it really doesn't matter what AC. They don't have OMG cooldowns that you need to avoid at all costs- you can just button mash faceroll until they are dead. You are completely free to use whatever attacks you like- they have no immunity to force/tech/dots...white or yellow damage it's all the same. If they are at 4k health...they aren't going to stay there for 6 globals- they will die in one single dps AC crit EVEN if they med pack/kolto overload/shield.

 

6 globals? what?

[obi_don]

I feel like starting a "Nerf Assassin" thread. Too bad I'm not used to stooping so low

 

Off you go... point still stands either way.

[Blloodbane]

You must know nothing about Watchman Sentinels because Watchman gets incredible self healing and everything else is base-line.

 

It is healing, I wouldnt call it incredible self helaing let alone the best, and over blown generalizations about stealth...Contrary they are not a stealth class, they get one 4 second stealth, they by no means can stay stealthed..

 

Ever ACTUALLY play this class let alone look at it? While other healers are putting up 200 to 600k healing they put up like 20K to 40K healing... I hardly call that incredible... let alone you completely overly exagerated statement of self healing.

[SinnedWill]

And youd be wrong, every day of the week.

 

Force shroud = use white damage. So easy only noobs fail at it. Undying rage = run away or cc fast

 

Force shroud = Immune to pretty much anything that might debuff you as well as all force/tech damage - yes, deal white damage to them, but you can't deal too terribly much since they're moving at full speed and immune to anything you might employ to dish out burst damage. Also, tankasin/shadows can typically use this twice in a 1v1 - and if they know your class very well, they'll apply it so that it will prevent your big hurt abilities (also, if shroud is combined with root/slow break of force speed, they can combat cloak and escape EVERY TIME) - never actually had a BH/Trooper succed with stealth probes when I do this. Sorc/Sage, mercs/commandos can't do squat when shroud is up. Maras/Sents, Jugg/Guardians, and P-Tech/VG can't do anything significant (one rail shot without the ability to reset it is the most you might take damage-wise) with it up but you can just pop deflection (not that you really need to for these). Sniper/Gunslinger (marksman specs) is pretty much the only class that can keep about 2/3 of their damage coming in, but you can just LoS, or pop deflection - hell you have 16% defense chance (base + talents) before any defense stat bonuses are applied (and pretty sure you'll have discharge's -5% accuracy on these classes) so you already get missed far more than most classes and sniper/slingers (like all the other classes) can't even use their maximum burst cycle while you're shrouded (burst cycle for all snipers involve explosive probe, which is tech-based).

Undying Rage = Stun the mara/sent at ~ 40% health and burst them dead before they pop it- some classes can do this when they have more, some need to wait for less, but most classes can burst 40% of a mara before a 4s stun burns off - if mara/sent does pop this, DoT, debuff, stun, root, or a combination of all this - target another enemy, use one attack, retarget mara/sent if he's still alive, finish with one skill.

 

Only time Undying Rage is really an issue is when they have a dedicated pocket healer whom they're on comms with so as to tell them when to be ready to heal them - getting healed while UR is active is pretty much the only big concern.

[svartalfimposter]

Mara/Sents have ZERO push,pull abilties, they have ZERO CC, and they are Medium armor...

 

I call equivocation, your honour! Who needs CC when you have an undispellable snare on most powers?

 

Secondly, the implication that Medium armour is hugely inferior to heavy armour is a gross exaggeration.

Edited May 10, 2012 by svartalfimposter

[SuperSair]

It is healing, I wouldnt call it incredible self helaing let alone the best, and over blown generalizations about stealth...Contrary they are not a stealth class, they get one 4 second stealth, they by no means can stay stealthed..

 

Ever ACTUALLY play this class let alone look at it? While other healers are putting up 200 to 600k healing they put up like 20K to 40K healing... I hardly call that incredible... let alone you completely overly exagerated statement of self healing.

 

Passive 2% heal for every dot crit, Zen adds another 1% and makes them auto-crit to make it three, and heal their party for a additional 1%. That is 3% for 6 charges, 18% over 6 seconds. With Defensive Forms and Valor, two mandatory talents, I can easily stack 30 centering in around 20-30 seconds of combat. 18% heal over 6 seconds every 20 seconds or so is INCREDIBLE. That and Valorous Call gives you instant 30 Centering to use it, which can increase the frequency. Troopers have a 15% heal over 10 seconds with a 180 second cooldown, to put some perspective on it.

 

You cannot equate a DPS classes' self heals to a actual healing class that is specced into healing's heals, that fact that you are comparing them is laughable. That and a Watchman Sentinel with only 20-40k healing is obviously doing it wrong, I've seen and DONE 100k very easily and often, much than i could on my DPS Sage, a class that actually has cast-able heals. And this healing is going on WHILE THEY DO DAMAGE, and it INCREASES their damage.

 

And yes, it is a 4 second stealth, 6 second talented, but it also increases your movement speed by 30%, 50% if talented. You can cover a very large distance in that time, and I can't tell you the amount of times I've stealthed past people to cap a door or other objectives. The fact of the matter is that it makes you invisible and un-targetable to everyone else, and can be used in the middle of combat and won't break early from damage, things that traditional stealth can't do. It makes you invisible, it's a stealth, It has some advantages over conditional stealth and some disadvantages but it is a REMARKABLE tool non-the-less.

Edited May 10, 2012 by SuperSair

[criminalheretic]

this ^^

 

You can't have a class that can put out amazing amounts of DPS then give them amazing defensive cooldowns. Something has to give.

 

Not saying they have to be glass cannons but jesus medium armour + Gaurded by the force + comabt vanish + Saber ward is just ridiculous and as you just pointed out 5 seconds is a long time in PvP.

 

In 5 seconds a healer could heal a Mara/sent almost to full life.

 

In five seconds a healer can heal anyone to full life. Again, people need to stop attributing heals to a Marauder's abilities.

[fungihoujo]

The problem isn't any one thing- it's that they top damage, they're mobile, they can keep doing top damage while moving, they can shut down any class the best, they have by far the best defensive CDs, they have by far the best movement bonuses, they have great CC/utility. They also continue to have good escapes/gap closers/CC against resolve full enemies.

 

Every other class has to pay something to get what they're good at.

 

Mercs deal lousy damage and have to stand still and have little in ways of escapes, are screwed against resolve full enemies, have no interrupt.

 

Ops lose their damage quickly out of stealth, and don't have all the movement bonuses/gap closer a marauder does, nor defensive CDs that compare.

 

Snipers have one bonus to them- they counter marauders. That's pretty much their niche, and only useful due to how OP marauders are, and thus how many of them there are.

 

Sorcs lose big on damage, have extremely easy to interrupt healing, and their CC is broken against full resolve, not to mention limited to begin with. Their single escape can be wasted by a leap or grapple, or any CC really- including roots even through full resolve.... they gain in return... well, they gain being free kills.

 

PT pyrotechs gain big burst damage- but aren't very mobile or have much CC or defensive CDs.

 

 

If marauders deserve the damage they have at that mobility- they need to pay in other areas. Right now, they do not.

[Sabredance]

Spot on.

The damage is fine.Thats what they are supposed to do.

But too many defensive capabilities.

That needs some tuning down.

 

The denial is strong in those one,

Edited May 10, 2012 by Sabredance

[criminalheretic]

One DPS class cannot have the best single target damage, best on-demand survive-ability and best self healing. Oh and don't forget a stealth, AoE mezz, Interrupt, healing debuff and two very powerful group buffs in Inspiration and Transcendence.

 

Watchman was OP before 1.2, it only took the expertise changes and one buff to Master Strike to make it more apparent.

 

Healers have the best self healing, unless we are really trying to compare the 10-30k a Marauder can self heal to the 500k a healer can drop. Marauders have the best on demand survivablility, because melee dps has the most demand i.e. they have to be in range of their attackers to attack, and no heavy armor. Best single target damage is a limitation, when compared to best overall damage, and they only have that BECAUSE of their defensive CD's. These are not separate, you cut a Marauder's survival in half, their DPS is also cut in half, and you have a "pure damage" class putting up the same damage totals as a healer. Everything else you mentioned is not specific to Marauders or Sentinels.

[Blloodbane]

Passive 2% heal for every dot crit, Zen adds another 1% and makes them auto-crit to make it three, and heal their party for a additional 1%. That is 3% for 6 charges, 18% over 6 seconds. With Defensive Forms and Valor, two mandatory talents, I can easily stack 30 centering in around 20-30 seconds of combat. 18% heal over 6 seconds every 20 seconds or so is INCREDIBLE. That and Valorous Call gives you instant 30 Centering to use it, which can increase the frequency. Troopers have a 15% heal over 10 seconds with a 180 second cooldown, to put some perspective on it.

 

You cannot equate a DPS classes' self heals to a actual healing class that is specced into healing's heals, that fact that you are comparing them is laughable. That and a Watchman Sentinel with only 20-40k healing is obviously doing it wrong, I've seen and DONE 100k very easily and often, much than i could on my DPS Sage, a class that actually has cast-able heals. And this healing is going on WHILE THEY DO DAMAGE, and it INCREASES their damage.

 

And yes, it is a 4 second stealth, 6 second talented, but it also increases your movement speed by 30%, 50% if talented. You can cover a very large distance in that time, and I can't tell you the amount of times I've stealthed past people to cap a door or other objectives. The fact of the matter is that it makes you invisible and un-targetable to everyone else, and can be used in the middle of combat and won't break early from damage, things that traditional stealth can't do. It makes you invisible, it's a stealth, It has some advantages over conditional stealth and some disadvantages but it is a REMARKABLE tool non-the-less.

 

Why cant I equate self heals to a healing class? You just said a few posts ago they had the best healing. You also equate them to a stealth class, which is not true... They do not do the BEST DPS, thats been disproven... The dont have the best defenses also disproven and many other way over blown statements... If anhilation/watchmens got to 100K healing it was a long drawn out fight and those kind of numbers are the exception and besides when I see those numbers the healing classes have 800K+ healing (most I seen was 929K so far)

 

You might know some of the math, but you defiantely dont play the class... You are lumping all those talents under one tree, the infamous 31/31/x build...You have made gross exagerated statements... You make it sound like they can spam all thse abilties at will, like their group buffs... One of which is on a FIVE min cool down and regardless you cant just get Fury at will to spam the group buff...the instant fury button is on a 3 min cool down so again not spammable...

 

AS far as Stealth, it DOES break early if you dish out damage, not if you take it, you can still be rooted, stunned, take damage from attacks (god knows I been killed in stealth enough) attacks, and ONE tree can spec it for 6 seconds... Depending on the map and the players its about useful as a hole in a head...most of the time its a brief time out and hope for the best...

 

You are like every other whiney QQ here, come in with WELL overblown exagerations, with some key critical components left out to create a vacuum of information to incite paranoid noobs in to a panic which furthers the panic of something being OP... Let me guess you are a 9/11 Truther too and think the Govt staged the attacks?

 

Not everyone follows the "rules" and plays something because they have too... AKA not everyone plays Anhilation/Watchmen specced Mara/Sents.... and as such those that dont and for the nerfs people are asking for,, would pretty much force every Mara Sent to ONLY play Anhilation/Watchman trees..

Edited May 10, 2012 by Blloodbane

[criminalheretic]

Spot on.

The damage is fine.Thats what they are supposed to do.

But too many defensive capabilities.

That needs some tuning down.

 

How do people continually consider these things separate? Dead people don't do damage. Take away their defensive CD's and they become Snipers with a 4m range on their attacks, no cover, stuns, stealth (real stealth, like I am going to walk all the way to a turret stealth, not the 5 second escape stealth), or healing. I.E. Dead Class.

[Marshallin]

We all know the Sentinel/Marauder are massively overpowered, but the problem could easily be fixed by reducing their defence/armour/HPs (I don't know what it is, but they don't die quickly enough).

 

Again sameone get ***** by full warhero geared sentinel, so he start sentinels are OP thread.

 

BUY PVP GEAR and you will not have problems with sentinels.

[criminalheretic]

Why cant I equate self heals to a healing class? You just said a few posts ago they had the best healing. You also equate them to a stealth class, which is not true... They do not do the BEST DPS, thats been disproven... The dont have the best defenses also disproven and many other way over blown statements... If anhilation/watchmens got to 100K healing it was a long drawn out fight and those kind of numbers are the exception and besides when I see those numbers the healing classes have 800K+ healing (most I seen was 929K so far)

 

You might know some of the math, but you defiantely dont play the class... You are lumping all those talents under one tree, the infamous 31/31/x build...You have made gross exagerated statements... You make it sound like they can spam all thse abilties at will, like their group buffs... One of which is on a FIVE min cool down and regardless you cant just get Fury at will to spam the group buff...the instant fury button is on a 3 min cool down so again not spammable...

 

it DOES break early if you dish out damage, not if you take it, you can still be rooted, stunned, take damage from attacks (god knows I been killed in stealth enough) attacks, and ONE tree can spec it for 6 seconds... Depending on the map and the players its about useful as a hole in a head...most of the time its a brief time out and hope for the best...

 

You are like every other whiney QQ here, come in with WELL overblown exagerations, with some key critical components left out to create a vacuum of information to incite paranoid noobs in to a panic which furthers the panic of something being OP... Let me guess you are a 9/11 Truther too and think the Govt staged the attacks?

 

And the dude says he has captured objectives while stealthed, you actually can't interact with objectives while force camo'd.

[Xerain]

The problem isn't any one thing- it's that they top damage, they're mobile, they can keep doing top damage while moving, they can shut down any class the best, they have by far the best defensive CDs, they have by far the best movement bonuses, they have great CC/utility. They also continue to have good escapes/gap closers/CC against resolve full enemies.

 

 

 

Every other class has to pay something to get what they're good at.

 

Mercs deal lousy damage and have to stand still and have little in ways of escapes, are screwed against resolve full enemies, have no interrupt.

 

Ops lose their damage quickly out of stealth, and don't have all the movement bonuses/gap closer a marauder does, nor defensive CDs that compare.

 

Snipers have one bonus to them- they counter marauders. That's pretty much their niche, and only useful due to how OP marauders are, and thus how many of them there are.

 

Sorcs lose big on damage, have extremely easy to interrupt healing, and their CC is broken against full resolve, not to mention limited to begin with. Their single escape can be wasted by a leap or grapple, or any CC really- including roots even through full resolve.... they gain in return... well, they gain being free kills.

 

PT pyrotechs gain big burst damage- but aren't very mobile or have much CC or defensive CDs.

 

 

If marauders deserve the damage they have at that mobility- they need to pay in other areas. Right now, they do not.

 

Lol at this thread, the guy knows nothing, great mobility against who? All you aresenal mercs that stand around and tracer missile?

 

Pyrotech pt is just as mobile as a marauder and they don't have to be in someones face to do damage and they have more and better CC than a marauder.

[Uchoo]

A well played Marauder is absolutely insane. A well-play sniper will keep them out of the game.

[svartalfimposter]

Pyrotech pt is just as mobile as a marauder and they don't have to be in someones face to do damage and they have more and better CC than a marauder.

 

I refer you to my previous comment about equivocation. Claiming that snares are not CC is disingenuous and misleading.

[iNeXxS]

Lol at this thread, the guy knows nothing, great mobility against who? All you aresenal mercs that stand around and tracer missile?

 

Pyrotech pt is just as mobile as a marauder and they don't have to be in someones face to do damage and they have more and better CC than a marauder.

If you're saying that Pyro PT's have good mobility then you're wrong. We are a MELEE class but we have no leaps and no speed boosts. Yes we can engage at range but we have to waste time to actually run up to you so we can Rocket Punch and Flame Burst. We also have no way of getting out of a fight. Maras/Sents can pop stealth and run but when we get into combat its a fight to the death and the only way to live is to actually kill the person.