Marauder/sentinels

[Dmasterr]

If you don't know much about me, i play a concealment operative/sorc/assassin/Juggernaut(shelved).

 

Now, i have no problems with marauders/sentinels, i beat them on my operative, assassin, and sorc heal hybrid.

 

But since i wanted to see what all the crying on the forum is about, i asked a friend to let me play his marauder; played it for a full week both in pugs and premades, and came to this conclusion:

 

1-Marauder/sentinel damage is not overpowered, but really good

 

2 -Marauder/sentinel cc is not overpowered, average

 

3-Marauder/sentinel mobility is not overpowered,good

 

4-Marauder survivability cds ARE overpowered, especially since all the above. Now the reason they are overpowered is the following.

In group pvp, this means healers, marauder get out of jail free cards are OP. If i was about to die, i force camouflage which gives my healer plenty of time to catch up. When im about to die a second time i use Undying rage with a medpack... which gives my healer plenty of time.... when im about to die a 3rd ! time force camo is back up... which leaves me to die a 4th time (if you don't miss the window of oportunity till my cds come back up)

 

The reason ppl cry about marauder/sentinels is that you have to kill them 4 freaking times to actually die in group pvp. Do you guys remember wow season 3/4 when Rogue cheat death was op? it was 3 seconds of 99% dmg reduction on a 1 min internal cd. .... and marauders basically get 2 of them LOL

 

My solution to fixing this is the following, make force camouflage reduce healing recieved by 100% (just like operative/assassin vanish), especially since it has a much shorter cooldown.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Darth_Philar]

Your assessment is correct. Burst is high but fine. It is their survivability that makes the burst OP. Nerf the defensive CDs and Marauders will be properly balanced.

[iphobia]

If you don't know much about me, i play a concealment operative/sorc/assassin/Juggernaut(shelved).

 

Now, i have no problems with marauders/sentinels, i beat them on my operative, assassin, and sorc heal hybrid.

 

But since i wanted to see what all the crying on the forum is about, i asked a friend to let me play his marauder; played it for a full week both in pugs and premades, and came to this conclusion:

 

1-Marauder/sentinel damage is not overpowered, but really good

 

2 -Marauder/sentinel cc is not overpowered, average

 

3-Marauder/sentinel mobility is not overpowered,good

 

4-Marauder survivability cds ARE overpowered, especially since all the above. Now the reason they are overpowered is the following.

In group pvp, this means healers, marauder get out of jail free cards are OP. If i was about to die, i force camouflage which gives my healer plenty of time to catch up. When im about to die a second time i use Undying rage with a medpack... which gives my healer plenty of time.... when im about to die a 3rd ! time force camo is back up... which leaves me to die a 4th time (if you don't miss the window of oportunity till my cds come back up)

 

The reason ppl cry about marauder/sentinels is that you have to kill them 4 freaking times to actually die in group pvp.

 

My solution to fixing this is the following, make force camouflage reduce healing recieved by 100% (just like operative/assassin vanish), especially since it has a much shorter cooldown.

 

/sign

It's their defensive cooldowns, not the damage or anything else. You notice this quickly if you play against them as a healer first, then as a dps.

I'd rather see the 99% reduce removed and if I'm honest, I personally hate such "godmode"-cooldowns.

[Crawelc]

Did you play all 3 specs across your week of play time? I would say we have 1 spec that has high damage one average and one low. And you cant say a class is OP based on having a pocket healer that makes no sense.

[Twor]

I was always amazed that my guardian did get less def CDs than my sentinel. Since passive mig in PvP is... uhm yeah.

 

The sheer amount of oh- sh*t buttons the class has is really a bit high. Yes, they are melee, but so are assasins (ok not a good example ), guardians and most of all ops.

This means that I agree with you

 

Did you play all 3 specs across your week of play time? I would say we have 1 spec that has high damage one average and one low. And you cant say a class is OP based on having a pocket healer that makes no sense.

 

Uhm, combat has some nice burst (check the sentinel forums discussion over watchman and combat for PvP), the one hit wonder focus pony doesn't fit low or average dps either.

So maybe you should visit that forum for some help? And yes I have played all three of them.

Not sure which specs would do average or low damage if played *correctly*.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Twor

[Dmasterr]

Did you play all 3 specs across your week of play time? I would say we have 1 spec that has high damage one average and one low. And you cant say a class is OP based on having a pocket healer that makes no sense.

 

I played annihilation and rage.

 

Annihilation is better for small scale fights 1v1, 1v2 and without having heal support. It has backloaded damage, susceptible to dispel, and being kited before you can deliver. It scales with the number of dps assisting you.

 

Rage is better for group fights, since it has front loaded burst damage which is aoe, and berserking gives 6 Free usage of vicious slash (which is also free on crits and has 15% extra crit chance) that hits 2 ! targets. It is pretty much unkitable and awesome for pressuring healers especially through guard. -> has great synergy with operative dps or mirror that can open on his target while its at 50% hp after ure burst.

And how can u say it makes no sense to consider healers in the game, first it makes no sense to consider 1v1 then it makes no sense to consider group fights? what else is left ? player vs training dummy ?

Edited May 10, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Vodrin]

Did you play all 3 specs across your week of play time? I would say we have 1 spec that has high damage one average and one low. And you cant say a class is OP based on having a pocket healer that makes no sense.

 

She's still correct. The cooldowns on Force cammo and enduring rage/guarded by the force are a bit too short. Lengthen them and the class is fine.

[Gigabolt]

well coming from the one who if i recall said something like %95 of republic play sentinels....... i will go against my better judgment and post a reply.

 

'Now, i have no problems with marauders/sentinels, i beat them on my operative, assassin, and sorc heal hybrid. ' so what exactly is your problem then?

 

In group pvp, this means healers, marauder get out of jail free cards are OP. If i was about to die, i force camouflage which gives my healer plenty of time to catch up. When im about to die a second time i use Undying rage with a medpack... which gives my healer plenty of time.... when im about to die a 3rd ! time force camo is back up... which leaves me to die a 4th time (if you don't miss the window of oportunity till my cds come back up)

 

any class getting spam healed will not die, if you are fighting teams that leave a healer to free cast with out shutting them down or at least disruptign them then they are clearly not very good and so dont provide a very good example to base a nerf thread on.

[Vodrin]

I was always amazed that my guardian did get less def CDs than my sentinel. Since passive mig in PvP is... uhm yeah.

 

.

There is a spec for the guardian that is capable of very good damage and has defensive ability that is better than the sentinel/marauder. It just happens that it is a hybrid build and that is why many dismiss it.

[JustTray]

Your assessment is correct. Burst is high but fine. It is their survivability that makes the burst OP. Nerf the defensive CDs and Marauders will be properly balanced.

 

This. 5 seconds of basic immunity to all damage, where you can immediately pop health pack to mitigate the loss of half of your remaining life is simply overpowered, especially when also combined with temporary invisibility.

 

The defensive cooldowns for marauder are simply out of control at the moment, and will be nerfed. I expect undying rage to go from 5s to 2s duration, as it always should have been.

[Dmasterr]

.

 

I never said sentinels are 95% of republic, i said vanguards+healers+sentinels together make up 90% of the republic on ToFN.

 

Just because i have no problem with sentinels in 1v1, says more about me than the class. I have no problem with operative/assassin/sorc on my marauder either.

 

And no, not every class that gets heal spam can stay alive trough focus fire, not to mention knowing that you have those cds, the healer can heal some1 else, and NOT you (the sentinel/marauder), because you have cooldowns that prevent you from dying and him to catch up.

 

That being said marauder gives better performance than my other chars with allot less effort. Having more buttons doesn't make it hard, it gives you more options.

[mystbladex]

As a mara i kill mara all day long. Maybe because I play one and know what to expect if they go force camo it is a very very very short cloak, I just wait for them and run in the general direction they cloaked from and "tab" gottcha and for undying rage just stun or CC, it is only 5 seconds so should not be a big issue.

 

Then after that is done they are good to die, it is really not that hard.

 

Anyone and I mean anyone with a "good" healer on them is going to be hard to put down. That is why you gotta kill the healer first before you kill the DPS it is that simple.

[doctorfirepants]

Just out of curiosity, during that full week of mastering the class, did you spend any time in WZ's purposefully avoiding using your defensive CD's. Why don't you play as if you don't have them and see how well those other points you made stack up then. You say that you have no problem taking out marauders with your other classes, if that is the case then how can any of the defensive abilities be OP? Like many of us said, if UR is so god mode, get rid of it and give us a real stun in its place. A stun allows a player to beat on another player with no fear of retaliation during the duration of the stun. UR basically gives the marauder the same ability except the other player still has full control of their character and can therefore easily counter UR. So how exactly is it OP compared to any other stun in the game? It's not, but people need to dig for reasons to cry about.

[Crawelc]

well said drfirepants, make awe not break on damage and ill give you my gbtf

[Dmasterr]

Have you actually read what my only proposed change was to the class?

It was the make the 45 second vanish the same as the 3 freaking minute one without changing its cd.

 

You seriously see no problem when 3 minute cooldown vanish from operatives and assassins prevent all healing on you (untalented), but the one with 4 times shorter cooldown doesn't ? considering you have the tools you have.

 

And yes, since i mostly play my operative, first day of marauder, i scarcely used his cooldowns, since i was used to having none (good ones)

Edited May 10, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Gigabolt]

 

Just because i have no problem with sentinels in 1v1, says more about me than the class. I have no problem with operative/assassin/sorc on my marauder either.

 

 

so you want them nerfed so you will have...less of a problem?

like I said, when shutting down enemy healers (which ppl should be doing) this 'mara op' goes away?

Edited May 10, 2012 by Gigabolt

[Dmasterr]

so you want them nerfed so you will have...less of a problem?

like I said, when shutting down enemy healers (which ppl should be doing) this 'mara op' goes away?

 

Marauders will be nerfed, no doubt about it.... just like hybrid sorc was = to many ppl whining on forum.

 

My proposed change tweaks the class so that your 1v1, etc ability will not be affected, and it will only take reduce your "cat" lives from 4 to 2, till you actually die in group fights.

 

Personaly? i couldn't care less what they do to the class, but the only ones who can not see its overpowered can't properly play it

[Odahviin]

Marauders will be nerfed, no doubt about it.... just like hybrid sorc was = to many ppl whining on forum.

 

My proposed change tweaks the class so that your 1v1, etc ability will not be affected, and it will only take reduce your "cat" lives from 4 to 2, till you actually die in group fights.

 

Personaly? i couldn't care less what they do to the class, but the only ones who can not see its overpowered can't properly play it

 

I love how people act like maras / sents never die.

 

get it thru your head UR 5 secs thats it!

 

in 5 seconds he can do what exactly? you tell me what if anything you can do in 5 secs which is so game breaking.

 

pocket heals are always a problem regardless of class, thats the advantage of that scenario.

 

my scoundrel with my guildy pocket healer unloads far more burst in a shorter time period. I have my defensive cooldowns and I can vanish if it even remotely looks like my healer is under pressure.

 

does this mean bioware should nerf scoundrels and ops AGAIN because the opposing team whines at me in match?

 

jeez

Edited May 10, 2012 by Odahviin

[snavekd]

ummm whats to stop them from just killing the healer first then the mara/sent? what is the mara/sent gonna do.. gaurd/taunt, cc, or cross-heal? o right...

[Exiled-Phoenix]

If you don't know much about me, i play a concealment operative/sorc/assassin/Juggernaut(shelved).

 

Now, i have no problems with marauders/sentinels, i beat them on my operative, assassin, and sorc heal hybrid.

 

But since i wanted to see what all the crying on the forum is about, i asked a friend to let me play his marauder; played it for a full week both in pugs and premades, and came to this conclusion:

 

1-Marauder/sentinel damage is not overpowered, but really good

 

2 -Marauder/sentinel cc is not overpowered, average

 

3-Marauder/sentinel mobility is not overpowered,good

 

4-Marauder survivability cds ARE overpowered, especially since all the above. Now the reason they are overpowered is the following.

In group pvp, this means healers, marauder get out of jail free cards are OP. If i was about to die, i force camouflage which gives my healer plenty of time to catch up. When im about to die a second time i use Undying rage with a medpack... which gives my healer plenty of time.... when im about to die a 3rd ! time force camo is back up... which leaves me to die a 4th time (if you don't miss the window of oportunity till my cds come back up)

 

The reason ppl cry about marauder/sentinels is that you have to kill them 4 freaking times to actually die in group pvp. Do you guys remember wow season 3/4 when Rogue cheat death was op? it was 3 seconds of 99% dmg reduction on a 1 min internal cd. .... and marauders basically get 2 of them LOL

 

My solution to fixing this is the following, make force camouflage reduce healing recieved by 100% (just like operative/assassin vanish), especially since it has a much shorter cooldown.

 

maurauders still have higher damage then any other dps class

 

Their mobility is OP as **** if you consider the fact that they can ignore all path limitations in pvp and simply jump to a target across the field.

Not to mention 45 second cooldown stealth...even my assassin has a 2min cooldown and thats with 2 points specced into a time reduction for the cd.

 

Their stealth needs to have a longer cooldown or just removed.

[Blloodbane]

ummm whats to stop them from just killing the healer first then the mara/sent? what is the mara/sent gonna do.. gaurd/taunt, cc, or cross-heal? o right...

 

Easy answer...

 

He just hits defensive CD called "William Wallace" and proceed to win the entire WZ single handly!

[whatthefett]

If you don't know much about me, i play a concealment operative/sorc/assassin/Juggernaut(shelved).

 

Now, i have no problems with marauders/sentinels, i beat them on my operative, assassin, and sorc heal hybrid.

 

4-Marauder survivability cds ARE overpowered, especially since all the above. Now the reason they are overpowered is the following.

In group pvp, this means healers, marauder get out of jail free cards are OP. If i was about to die, i force camouflage which gives my healer plenty of time to catch up. When im about to die a second time i use Undying rage with a medpack... which gives my healer plenty of time.... when im about to die a 3rd ! time force camo is back up... which leaves me to die a 4th time (if you don't miss the window of oportunity till my cds come back up)

 

The reason ppl cry about marauder/sentinels is that you have to kill them 4 freaking times to actually die in group pvp. Do you guys remember wow season 3/4 when Rogue cheat death was op? it was 3 seconds of 99% dmg reduction on a 1 min internal cd. .... and marauders basically get 2 of them LOL

[/color]

 

My solution to fixing this is the following, make force camouflage reduce healing recieved by 100% (just like operative/assassin vanish), especially since it has a much shorter cooldown.

 

The problem is pvp environments are dynamic. Yeah, so the healer was killed. Marauder is dead. You don't have a healer. Marauder is dead. Your pug stinks? Marauder is dead. Tell me one class or one scenario where someone doesn't die if they get constant heals? That isn't overpowered, that class interaction. There are plenty of classes with comparable powers. Also, what type of marauder? What talents? What spec? Too vague.

[whatthefett]

Did you play all 3 specs across your week of play time? I would say we have 1 spec that has high damage one average and one low. And you cant say a class is OP based on having a pocket healer that makes no sense.

 

Exactly.

[whatthefett]

Just out of curiosity, during that full week of mastering the class, did you spend any time in WZ's purposefully avoiding using your defensive CD's. Why don't you play as if you don't have them and see how well those other points you made stack up then. You say that you have no problem taking out marauders with your other classes, if that is the case then how can any of the defensive abilities be OP? Like many of us said, if UR is so god mode, get rid of it and give us a real stun in its place. A stun allows a player to beat on another player with no fear of retaliation during the duration of the stun. UR basically gives the marauder the same ability except the other player still has full control of their character and can therefore easily counter UR. So how exactly is it OP compared to any other stun in the game? It's not, but people need to dig for reasons to cry about.

 

Also correct.

[HurricaneXXIV]

I play four classes at a high level and Im working on my 5th. 1 Healer and 3 dps.

 

I disagree with two major points.

 

1) Their CC is not average, it's terrible. The bulk of sents/mara's play anhil/wm. This means they have 2 CC's. Awe, which breaks on damage and force stasis which requires the mara to stay in position and channel it. Where do Mara's fight, in the middle of everyone. This means while using force stasis they normally are really easy targets for people to pick off. Bad CC, the class was designed that way on purpose.

 

2) Your assessment of CD's to me fails to take into account one major factor. Just about any class can form separation through positioning besides a Mara for 4 seconds. Range can move, kite and pretty much sit back from the melee blender to avoid damage. Once sents go in, they are committed and they have to fight on top a target. Camo is not a vanish, you know they will reappear in 4 seconds and in 4 seconds they normally are not out of range to attack. As a healer I can tell you that GBtF is really the only thing that stops a Mara from dying in group pvp. They get focus fired harder than any other class I heal. They don't sneak up on people and they are extremely squishy when focused.

 

On a side note: If you are a Jug and think you die quickly, please switch stances.