Operative DPS... Useless?

[TiTaNsFaN]

So I have come to grips recently that once everyone in my guild is equally geared, there is no way my DPS as an Operative will ever be able to match up to that of my fellow raiders.

 

It is also blatantly clear that my utility, the little that there is (cleansing, off-healing, lucky vanish-rez?) pale in comparison to that of classes such as the Marauder, or the Sorcerer, or the Sniper etc.

 

In PvP the situation is... bleak. I will leave it at that. We are thankfully better off than Mercenarys in this aspect however.

 

I ask fellow operatives, what solution do you have? Bite the bullet and respec heals? Reroll completely? Play Diablo 3? What can I do to enjoy the game now that I am so... unnecessary

[Ryemfoh]

I would suggest spending a few hours with a training dummy, and checking that your gear / stat priorities are correct. With the correct gearing and "rotation" we can be very effective in both PVE and PVP.

 

Check this thread for info on gear / rotations / etc. It's pretty long, but (if you ignore the QQ'ers who seem to pop up everywhere in the Operative forum) is a pretty good read. Highlights are page 4 (ability DPE breakdown) and the last few pages which have some great rotation info.

[Bazzoong]

Do what the post above suggested and read through that link.

 

DO IT.

 

Stop complaining, start killing...

 

(edit)

For pvp drop you garbage spec and use this:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401McbMZMIRMddRbGR.1

Edited May 10, 2012 by Bazzoong

[Ryemfoh]

(edit)

For pvp drop you garbage spec and use this:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401McbMZMIRMddRbGR.1

 

Hehe - I just dropped that spec and went back to Slip Away 2 nights ago ... I gave it a week and it is very powerful (I'd imagine it's particularly effective sub-1k Expertise), but I missed the reduced Deb cooldown too much given my playstyle (and the fact that I almost never seem to be fighting less than 2 players).

 

So I still think both specs are strong in PVP, but Slip Away is better suited to my playstyle.

[TiTaNsFaN]

Do what the post above suggested and read through that link.

 

DO IT.

 

Stop complaining, start killing...

 

(edit)

For pvp drop you garbage spec and use this:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401McbMZMIRMddRbGR.1

 

No waylay or flanking? No 3% crit Lethality? 2 pts in scouting? LOL

 

To the other poster, my spec is correct and my gear is correct mods/enhancements etc. My DPS is not abysmal, I am not saying that operatives cannot DPS adequately for the level of content we have (we have cleared 8 man HM Denova even b4 the bug fix).

 

My argument (not really an argument as it is a fact) is that operative DPS is lower than the overwhelming majority of other classes that also have equal or suprior utility to us. So what's the point?

Edited May 10, 2012 by TiTaNsFaN

[Bazzoong]

No waylay or flanking? No 3% crit Lethality? 2 pts in scouting? LOL

 

To the other poster, my spec is correct and my gear is correct mods/enhancements etc. My DPS is not abysmal, I am not saying that operatives cannot DPS adequately for the level of content we have (we have cleared 8 man HM Denova even b4 the bug fix).

 

My argument (not really an argument as it is a fact) is that operative DPS is lower than the overwhelming majority of other classes that also have equal or suprior utility to us. So what's the point?

 

You are using 3/31/7 which is garbage for pvp, your comment on scouting, puts you beyond the pale for any further discussion, basically you are using a pve spec for pvp and complain about how bleak things look, YOU are the one coming here to whine, but do not even consider taking advice, pathetic, if you do not what other opinions than yours why do you post at all.

 

You can find threads like the one you started in the forums for all classes, even those that are supposedly "out-damaging" operatives, guess what that indicates...

Edited May 15, 2012 by Qishari
removed insults

[Ryemfoh]

My argument (not really an argument as it is a fact) is that operative DPS is lower than the overwhelming majority of other classes that also have equal or suprior utility to us. So what's the point?

 

My counter-argument is that your argument is not fact. Operatives are hard to play, particularly in actual combat situations, but there are still massive variations even on dummy parses. Small mistakes and misconceptions have a big impact on this class while other classes are a bit more forgiving.

 

In the linked thread, there are Operatives at (or very close to) the 1.5k DPS level which is on par with most other DPS classes that I've seen.

[Ravenxox]

Mostly balance issues my friend, you also have access to a Healer Tree, which is a luxury Marauders/Sentinels and Snipers/Gunslingers dont have, so it would make sense that those classes top the DPS ladder. Of course, the game shouldnt force you into healing, so just be patient I suppose.

[TiTaNsFaN]

You are using 3/31/7 which is garbage for pvp, your comment on scouting, puts you beyond the pale for any further discussion, basically you are using a pve spec for pvp and complain about how bleak things look, YOU are the one coming here to whine, but do not even consider taking advice, pathetic, if you do not what other opinions than yours why do you post at all.

 

You can find threads like the one you started in the forums for all classes, even those that are supposedly "out-damaging" operatives, guess what that indicates...

 

PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE ON KINRATH SPIDER PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE. I wouldn't mind lol'ing at you in-game. GL with that spec; you're trying so had to increase your survivability, why? Even with all that you are still a glass cannon and squishy. You want to heal mid-fight or pre-fight for an extra TA? Every class has interrupts and stuns, what exactly are you trying to accomplish by forgoing talents that actually increase your burst? I suspect this is a case of small-server syndrome where everyone still around is a bad.

 

I'm not here to whine. The FACT is our class is out-dpsed in PvE raid environments PERIOD. At the ceiling (everything else being equal) our DPS is LOWER in operation situations than similar DPS classes. Prove me wrong, the threads linked above certainly did not. For the record we were server first HM Denova and I'm rank 78 Warzone.

 

If you are going to sit there and try and convince me our class is superior numbers-wise and/or Utility-wise to Marauders, Powertechs, Assassins etc. I'm going to ROFLMAO at you all day long.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Qishari
quoted insult

[CornBreadtm]

You are using 3/31/7 which is garbage for pvp, your comment on scouting, puts you beyond the pale for any further discussion, basically you are using a pve spec for pvp and complain about how bleak things look, YOU are the one coming here to whine, but do not even consider taking advice, pathetic, if you do not what other opinions than yours why do you post at all.

 

You can find threads like the one you started in the forums for all classes, even those that are supposedly "out-damaging" operatives, guess what that indicates...

 

He's been mostly talking about PvE (said about 1 line about PvP)..... why wouldn't he use a PvE spec for PvE?

It would be a good Idea to read his two posts about raids before posting again.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Qishari
quoted insults

[TiTaNsFaN]

My counter-argument is that your argument is not fact. Operatives are hard to play, particularly in actual combat situations, but there are still massive variations even on dummy parses. Small mistakes and misconceptions have a big impact on this class while other classes are a bit more forgiving.

 

In the linked thread, there are Operatives at (or very close to) the 1.5k DPS level which is on par with most other DPS classes that I've seen.

 

To clarify I can pull ~1450+ on a DUMMY with trinket/ adrenal rotation. This is, of course, in nearly max-level gear. I guarantee you from Mox numbers that other classes can achieve higher numbers particularly in raid situations with more utility.

 

My argument has yet to be refuted effecively. What does a DPS operative bring to a raid that another class does not do better?

[CornBreadtm]

To clarify I can pull ~1450+ on a DUMMY with trinket/ adrenal rotation. This is, of course, in nearly max-level gear. I guarantee you from Mox numbers that other classes can achieve higher numbers particularly in raid situations with more utility.

 

My argument has yet to be refuted effecively. What does a DPS operative bring to a raid that another class does not do better?

 

Infiltrate

[Bazzoong]

OOO***EEEYY, you guys are right, delete your operative. Stack more marauders on your raids.

[Ryemfoh]

My argument has yet to be refuted effecively. What does a DPS operative bring to a raid that another class does not do better?

 

Umm ... off-heals, vanish-res, the strongest AoE in the game, ranged DPS when forced out of melee, AoE Mez, short CD stun, OOC mez ... do you really want me to list all of our abilities here?

[Ich_Bin]

Umm ... off-heals, vanish-res, the strongest AoE in the game, ranged DPS when forced out of melee, AoE Mez, short CD stun, OOC mez ... do you really want me to list all of our abilities here?

 

Vanish-Res --> True

Off-heals --> Sorc, Mercenary

AoE --> Sniper, (Powertech, Mercenary)

ranged DPS when forced out of melee --> only three classes don't have this (Sin, Warrior) but they have gap closers

AoE Mez (the "usefulness" of it during a raid aside) --> Sniper (30m range), Warriors

short CD stun --> speccing into this for a raid is a true waste of talent points. how many bosses are there that you can stun?

OOZ mez --> Sin obviously

 

 

To sum it up: No, I don't think an Operative has got useful utility that no other class can do better. An Operative does bring a fairly big package of utility to the raid-table though. Someone who knows how to utitlize on it can definitely be helpful.

 

However we cannot deny that the OP is right in his statement. The best dps parses of Operatives that I have seen so far are between 1400 and 1500. And they are incredibly rare because the class is so hard to play. Other classes in the same gear can do more than 1600 with less effort.

In an actual raid the Operative's dps will even be more lower compared to other classes because of the positional requirement for backstab. We all know that sometimes you can be behind a boss but get an error message when trying to use backstab. This costs time (in which you cannot dps) and messes up our rotation.

So while most of you might be tired of the so-called "QQing" about our class it doesn't make the OP's statement less true.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[teemoor]

off-heals

Sorcs/BH + sorcs have bubble that is way better then a 3 sec cast weak non-talented heal (and a waste of dps)

 

the strongest AoE in the game

Not smash juggs then

 

vanish-res

Almost useless, unstable and sins can do that too.

 

AoE Mez, short CD stun, OOC mez

Useless in boss fights.

 

The problem is - noone needs melee in their raids, except maras for their raid buffs. No boss mechanics, no melee dps > ranged dps, nothing.

 

I'm an operative healer :<

[Ryemfoh]

Vanish-Res --> True

Off-heals --> Sorc, Mercenary

AoE --> Sniper, (Powertech, Mercenary)

ranged DPS when forced out of melee --> only three classes don't have this (Sin, Warrior) but they have gap closers

AoE Mez (the "usefulness" of it during a raid aside) --> Sniper (30m range), Warriors

short CD stun --> speccing into this for a raid is a true waste of talent points. how many bosses are there that you can stun?

OOZ mez --> Sin obviously

Not sure what you're saying here ... that 1 Operative == 3 other classes in utility abilities they bring to the table? All classes have different abilities and a mix of abilities that are shared by other classes - no class is a unique butterfly that can do a laundry list of things no others can.

 

Sorcs/BH + sorcs have bubble that is way better then a 3 sec cast weak non-talented heal (and a waste of dps)

See above. Also I have had heals crit for 5k in PVE .. that's more than the health mitigated by a (probably untalented) shield. The cast time for shield is of course nice.

 

Not smash juggs then

No, not smash juggs. They do a lot of front-loaded AoE damage, but ours hits for more over the duration. AFAIK our AoE is the only one worth using on a single target (not 100% sure about BH, but last I heard they'd nerfed it a bit). Picking up the 2p Field Tech set bonus (PVP) makes it 30% stronger as well.

 

Almost useless, unstable and sins can do that too.

I have used this multiple times on progression fights, and as long as you are careful with the timing and positioning it is not at all unreliable. Sin's can only do this once because as non-healer class they have a CD on their OOC revive. We also have a regular combat res, but unless you're running 1 healer and they are the one that died it's not really worth mentioning. Vanish + Medpack is also pretty useful at taking the heat off healers, as are Shield Probe and Evasion when used properly.

 

Useless in boss fights.

Actually, useful against many of the adds that spawn during boss fights.

 

The problem is - noone needs melee in their raids, except maras for their raid buffs. No boss mechanics, no melee dps > ranged dps, nothing.

 

I'm an operative healer :<

Well that is just up to your raid leader I suppose. My guild is fairly melee heavy, and we do fine (not NM yet). The real fact is that Operatives are perfectly capable of completing all content in the game at the moment, and while they may not be top DPS, they are solidly mid-table. If you want to switch to a FOTM class / spec that is your choice.

[Sookster]

For pvp drop you garbage spec and use this:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401McbMZMIRMddRbGR.1

 

TERRIBLE spec.

 

PS- cloaking from combat in raids is not a good idea, people don't like it because it can bug the raid permanently until it's reset.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Sookster

[Ryemfoh]

PS- cloaking from combat in raids is not a good idea, people don't like it because it can bug the raid permanently until it's reset.

 

I've never seen this happen, and have cloaked multiple times in every fight in the game.

[TiTaNsFaN]

The real fact is that Operatives are perfectly capable of completing all content in the game at the moment, and while they may not be top DPS, they are solidly mid-table. If you want to switch to a FOTM class / spec that is your choice.

 

"Capable of completing content" is not incentive enough for most hardcore radiers in any mmo. You say operatives are "solidly mid-table;" middle between whom?

 

Marauders, Powertechs, Sorcerers, Snipers are ahead of us, either by virtue of pure damage output or more constant damage output (gap-closer or ranged.) Anybody who wants to refute me, please show me hard data in top-tier raid gear. I have been running Mox numbers in my guild specifically during all of our Hard Mode Denova clears.

 

Granted, the numbers are not laughably far from on another, but they are still lower. That, plus ZERO actual raid utility (off-heals should NEVER be necessary, everything else is not raid utility as most raid enemies are cc immune) makes us the least desirable class in the game DPS-wise, except possibly the juggernaut.

 

So yes, the premise that we are competent to complete the easy content in-game is true. To say that we should be content with that however is nonsensical; the balance is worse now than it was pre-1.2. I shouldn't have to reroll fotm to be competitive.

[KyoMamoru]

makes us the least desirable class in the game DPS-wise, except possibly the juggernaut.

 

Juggernauts have Sunder + Defensive clicks, even when they are in DPS mode. Sunder is raid utility for the entire group, unless you already have another Juggernaut to apply the Sunder effect. A full stack of Sunder reduces armor by 20%, and with Operation bosses being at 5814 armor at a default 35% reduction. This increases damage by 5% for the entire raid. In a higher tiered raid group, everyone should be putting out ~1400 dps before adrenals, relics, and buffs. Over a five minute duration, that equates to 1,680,000 damage when looking at the four damage dealers. The addition of Sunder provides 84,000 damage, or 21,000 per DPS if all of their moves are checked against armor.

 

To compare, a Marauder's Blood thirst lasts for 15 seconds, and increases damage by 15% or an additional 12,600 damage during the duration of the move. This will only apply to four people, while the sunder effect will apply to even the Tanks that are in the group. I honestly don't understand why people underestimate the effect of Sunder over time.

Edited May 10, 2012 by KyoMamoru

[chuixupu]

I'm in agreement that Operatives appear to be somewhat on the bottom of the pile compared to other dps when you at numbers people throw around ...on the other hand, in my experience with my guild and, occasionally pugging random people, the number one most important factor is the bring the player and not the class. Good player > bad whatever else who won't follow directions, stands in crap., etc..., and that makes up for a fairly large percentage of the population. I've seen parses that show Operatives are perfectly capable of good numbers. It's just harder. Be a good player, get a good group, win. Every class asks the same question about what they bring that others don't do better.

 

So, am I satisfied with that? No...I think DPS Operatives need a lot of rethinking in their design. They aren't the only ones. The encounters themselves need better design that doesn't punish melee so much.

 

TL;DR - if you enjoy playing your Operative keep doing it, you'll be fine. But if you're finding that you are not happy and you feel like you're dragging your group down, reroll and play whatever you find you're having a better time with. Not all classes are for everyone.

[TiTaNsFaN]

Juggernauts have Sunder + Defensive clicks, even when they are in DPS mode. Sunder is raid utility for the entire group, unless you already have another Juggernaut to apply the Sunder effect. A full stack of Sunder reduces armor by 20%, and with Operation bosses being at 5814 armor at a default 35% reduction. This increases damage by 5% for the entire raid. In a higher tiered raid group, everyone should be putting out ~1400 dps before adrenals, relics, and buffs. Over a five minute duration, that equates to 1,680,000 damage when looking at the four damage dealers. The addition of Sunder provides 84,000 damage, or 21,000 per DPS if all of their moves are checked against armor.

 

To compare, a Marauder's Blood thirst lasts for 15 seconds, and increases damage by 15% or an additional 12,600 damage during the duration of the move. This will only apply to four people, while the sunder effect will apply to even the Tanks that are in the group. I honestly don't understand why people underestimate the effect of Sunder over time.

 

Glad to know Operatives are even less useful than I thought... thanks...

[ktkenshinx]

I am going to speak to PvP Op performance, because that is where my experience lies. I know that the OP is primarily worried about PvE Op performance, but because he also mentioned PvP, this is fair game for discussion.

 

First of all, you need to make sure you are rolling with the right spec for PvP. There are a lot of different theories going around this forum about which spec is optimal. As I see it, here is the core 34 points you need in every Concealment spec (also note that I am talking about Concealment Ops, not Lethality ones. Again, this is where my expertise is).

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#4010cZGGM0ddRbGR.1

Concealment Op base 34 point distribution

 

A few notes on talents:

Imperial Education - 3 points: Huge boost to damage, crit, surge, healing, etc. You can't pass up on this.

 

Imperial Brew - 3 points: Ops have a unique edge over Sins/Shadows because we have a better heavy armor matchup. A big part of this is our AB DOT and our Dart DOT. Brew guarantees that you get the most out of these brutal poison effects. Remember, internal damage is not mitigated by armor.

 

Survival Training - 2+ points: Over the course of a fight, especially with Revitalizers up and Kolto Injection getting popped behind pillars, this whopping self heal bonus will help so much more than will 4% bonus Endurance. This is especially true if you benefit from a team/guild healer who tosses down heals or HOTS on you.

 

I am happy to discuss any other specifics of that core build, if there are any questions. As to the remaining 7 points, you have a variety of options. Here are some talents that I recommend you look into.

 

Incisive Action - 2 Points: I really think this skill is too good to pass up in WZs. Remember, PVP is NOT just a slugfest or deathmatch. PvP is about objectives. Incisive Action gives you a lot of staying power in defending objectives and pressing an attack. It also lets you keep Stim Boost up at basically all times, which means you never have to waste your first TA proc after a HS on SB. In a straight up 1v1, using Flash to give you a healing window is absolutely brutal with 2 points of IA. You can pop 2 Injections and 2 Infusions, and still have time to get behind an enemy to instantly Backstab with AB. Or you you can just fire off 4 Injections. Remember, you need to protect objectives in WZs. This talent gives you a huge improvement in your kiting/healing and general survivability.

 

Chem Resistant Inlays - 2 Points: Ops have a squishiness problem, and Inlays goes a long way towards helping us in that realm. This talent reduces damage even from otherwise non-reducible damage sources: Internal and Elemental Damage. In a straight up 1v1, you might not notice the difference; if an enemy is pumping out even a measly 1300 DPS right on your head, Inlays won't even give you the ability to survive one extra hit. But if you are taking intermittent damage from AOE, DOTS, indirect attacks, etc., then Inlays really increases your staying power. This is especially true when Revitalizers are active and when you can drop Injections on yourself.

 

If you talent these abilities, you would get this build, which is exactly my current build minus 3 points.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401Mc0MZGGM0ddRbGR.1

 

For those last 3 points, you have some options. I am a huge fan of Precision Instruments, because it makes Sever Tendon basically "free" with a Stim Boost up. This is big if you need to Sever Tendon and dart behind something to heal. It also really pays off in Huttball. The same goes for the Debilitate cost reduction, which helps a lot in 1v1 fights.

 

Lethality (the talent) is another candidate. It's a great skill that helps out across the board with damage and healing, so it is definitely worth a look. You could also revisit Survival Training, which gives yet another 3% bonus to the awesome Revitalizers.

 

As a final word of advice, I would avoid Surgical Steadiness in PvP. The threat reduction is wasted, so we don't even need to discuss that; the only reason you would get SS is for the pushback reduction. But if you have ever tried to heal under fire in a WZ, you are probably dead anyway, or going to get smashed by CC and interrupts. This is especially true in 1v1s against PTs and Shadows/Sins. PTs alone have a 6 second interrupt, an AoE stun, and a targeted stun. Shadows/Sins have spike, interrupt, and shock. The only way you are ever going to get a heal off against these guys is with LOS, and if you are using LOS, you don't need pushback reduction.

 

So in the end, here are two final builds I would recommend. They focus on objective-based WZ gameplay.

 

(9/32/0) http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401rc0MZGIM0ddRbGR.1

(7/31/3) http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401Mc0MZGGM0ddRbGRZh.1

 

On my server, a large one, my Op consistently outperforms Mars/Sents/Shadows/Sins in DPS, and has a lot of objective staying power. Only PTs/Vans tend to rival the damage output. With a good spec and good use of your abilities, you will find that Ops are by no means outclassed.

Edited May 10, 2012 by ktkenshinx

[KyoMamoru]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#4010cZGIrodzMdGoZhMoz.1

 

If you are using any other build in PVE Operations as Concealment, you're wasting points and DPS.

 

• Jarring Strike is useless.
  
• Energy Screen is useless.
  
• Pin Down is useless.
  
• Poison Dart is worth ~13% of our total DPS, and should be talented to reach its maximum potential. In my view, it is better to talent for increased duration due to energy concerns, than for the full 25% chance of double ticking. Four applications are saved over a five minute fight, resulting in a savings of 80 energy.
  
• Increasing our Maximum HP and Healing received is better than any damage reduction talent that we have access to.

 

 

This is the build I used when I was dpsing 1420 on the Operation Dummy without Adrenals or click relics. I'd probably hit ~1480-1500 right now, but I'm waiting to reparse when I get my Rakata weapon. I don't want to re-itemize my BM Rifle for PVE. It also goes without saying [i'd hope by now], that you want to have the Two Piece set from Field tech PVP for your Orbital Strike.

Edited May 10, 2012 by KyoMamoru