Operative DPS... Useless?

[TiTaNsFaN]

I am going to speak to PvP Op performance, because that is where my experience lies. I know that the OP is primarily worried about PvE Op performance, but because he also mentioned PvP, this is fair game for discussion.

 

First of all, you need to make sure you are rolling with the right spec for PvP. There are a lot of different theories going around this forum about which spec is optimal. As I see it, here is the core 34 points you need in every Concealment spec (also note that I am talking about Concealment Ops, not Lethality ones. Again, this is where my expertise is).

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#4010cZGGM0ddRbGR.1

Concealment Op base 34 point distribution

 

A few notes on talents:

Imperial Education - 3 points: Huge boost to damage, crit, surge, healing, etc. You can't pass up on this.

 

Imperial Brew - 3 points: Ops have a unique edge over Sins/Shadows because we have a better heavy armor matchup. A big part of this is our AB DOT and our Dart DOT. Brew guarantees that you get the most out of these brutal poison effects. Remember, internal damage is not mitigated by armor.

 

Survival Training - 2+ points: Over the course of a fight, especially with Revitalizers up and Kolto Injection getting popped behind pillars, this whopping self heal bonus will help so much more than will 4% bonus Endurance. This is especially true if you benefit from a team/guild healer who tosses down heals or HOTS on you.

 

I am happy to discuss any other specifics of that core build, if there are any questions. As to the remaining 7 points, you have a variety of options. Here are some talents that I recommend you look into.

 

Incisive Action - 2 Points: I really think this skill is too good to pass up in WZs. Remember, PVP is NOT just a slugfest or deathmatch. PvP is about objectives. Incisive Action gives you a lot of staying power in defending objectives and pressing an attack. It also lets you keep Stim Boost up at basically all times, which means you never have to waste your first TA proc after a HS on SB. In a straight up 1v1, using Flash to give you a healing window is absolutely brutal with 2 points of IA. You can pop 2 Injections and 2 Infusions, and still have time to get behind an enemy to instantly Backstab with AB. Or you you can just fire off 4 Injections. Remember, you need to protect objectives in WZs. This talent gives you a huge improvement in your kiting/healing and general survivability.

 

Chem Resistant Inlays - 2 Points: Ops have a squishiness problem, and Inlays goes a long way towards helping us in that realm. This talent reduces damage even from otherwise non-reducible damage sources: Internal and Elemental Damage. In a straight up 1v1, you might not notice the difference; if an enemy is pumping out even a measly 1300 DPS right on your head, Inlays won't even give you the ability to survive one extra hit. But if you are taking intermittent damage from AOE, DOTS, indirect attacks, etc., then Inlays really increases your staying power. This is especially true when Revitalizers are active and when you can drop Injections on yourself.

 

If you talent these abilities, you would get this build, which is exactly my current build minus 3 points.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401Mc0MZGGM0ddRbGR.1

 

For those last 3 points, you have some options. I am a huge fan of Precision Instruments, because it makes Sever Tendon basically "free" with a Stim Boost up. This is big if you need to Sever Tendon and dart behind something to heal. It also really pays off in Huttball. The same goes for the Debilitate cost reduction, which helps a lot in 1v1 fights.

 

Lethality (the talent) is another candidate. It's a great skill that helps out across the board with damage and healing, so it is definitely worth a look. You could also revisit Survival Training, which gives yet another 3% bonus to the awesome Revitalizers.

 

As a final word of advice, I would avoid Surgical Steadiness in PvP. The threat reduction is wasted, so we don't even need to discuss that; the only reason you would get SS is for the pushback reduction. But if you have ever tried to heal under fire in a WZ, you are probably dead anyway, or going to get smashed by CC and interrupts. This is especially true in 1v1s against PTs and Shadows/Sins. PTs alone have a 6 second interrupt, an AoE stun, and a targeted stun. Shadows/Sins have spike, interrupt, and shock. The only way you are ever going to get a heal off against these guys is with LOS, and if you are using LOS, you don't need pushback reduction.

 

So in the end, here are two final builds I would recommend. They focus on objective-based WZ gameplay.

 

(9/32/0) http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401rc0MZGIM0ddRbGR.1

(7/31/3) http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401Mc0MZGGM0ddRbGRZh.1

 

On my server, a large one, my Op consistently outperforms Mars/Sents/Shadows/Sins in DPS, and has a lot of objective staying power. Only PTs/Vans tend to rival the damage output. With a good spec and good use of your abilities, you will find that Ops are by no means outclassed.

 

The final spec you linked is the one I use, minus the chem-resistant inlays for razor edge. This is a great tutorial post, but it doesn't real deal with the central issue, pvp or otherwise. Other classes are objectively better for PvP in this game. The only area in which an operative CAN shine is in 1v1 against SOME (but not all classes, sin tank comes to mind) and this is obviously not useful in a group setting.

 

Your last line, "you will find that Ops are by no means outclassed," isn't really supported by anything you say. Prove to me that marauders, powertechs, assasins etc. are not superior in any of the ways you described (other than idk, off-healing) and I will agree with you. Otherwise, why operatives may be "adequate" and other adjectives used elsewhere in this thread, they are relegated at best to the red-heaeded step-child role in this mmo. Unfortunately, because of all the backlash against the class early on in the game, it is unlikely they will brought back to competitive viability anytime soon.

[Zaragosa]

You are using 3/31/7 which is garbage for pvp, your comment on scouting, puts you beyond the pale for any further discussion, basically you are using a pve spec for pvp and complain about how bleak things look, YOU are the one coming here to whine, but do not even consider taking advice, pathetic, if you do not what other opinions than yours why do you post at all.

 

You can find threads like the one you started in the forums for all classes, even those that are supposedly "out-damaging" operatives, guess what that indicates...

 

Hmm, learn to read perhaps? The OP is refering to Operation DPS as it stands compared to that of other classes. He/she made a minor comment refering to PVP being "bleak" for Operatives. His/her followup posts and the original refered to Raids.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Qishari
quoted insults

[KyoMamoru]

I strongly recommend against using Concealment in PVP currently unless you have completely reitemized War Hero Gear. The lack of Surge/Power enhancements at BM level [at least for Empire] significantly impacts the level of burst that the class can deal.

[ktkenshinx]

Your last line, "you will find that Ops are by no means outclassed," isn't really supported by anything you say. Prove to me that marauders, powertechs, assasins etc. are not superior in any of the ways you described (other than idk, off-healing) and I will agree with you. Otherwise, why operatives may be "adequate" and other adjectives used elsewhere in this thread, they are relegated at best to the red-heaeded step-child role in this mmo. Unfortunately, because of all the backlash against the class early on in the game, it is unlikely they will brought back to competitive viability anytime soon.

In breaking down Op viability, we have to look at two qualities of the class. (Note, I will be talking about Concealment, because that is where the overwhelming amount of my PvP experience lies).

 

The first ability we need to consider is Stealth. This ability immediately gives Ops a unique niche over every other class (Except Sins/Shadows, which I will talk about later). But before we can start comparing Ops to Sins/Shadows, we need to see how Stealth, as an ability, gives Ops unique utility and roles in WZs over other non-stealth classes.

 

Stealth just has so much value in Warzones, even against premades. Let's break it down by warzone: \

 

Huttball

Stealth serves both offensive and defensive functions that are unique to stealth character. First, it lets you get a pass train going that the enemy cannot preempt. Get on a ledge, or get in the endzone to set up the pass. This minimizes the enemy reaction time. The ability also opens up strong defensive options; waiting on fire pits to HS a ball carrier, sleep darting healers in an incoming pain train, chilling near a pass target to quickly intercept at the center of the passing circle, etc. Stealth enables all of this, and no other class has that specific role in Huttball. Some classes can pull (one type of utility). Others can knockback. Others can charge. We have stealth.

 

Voidstar/Novare/Civil War

Node-based maps, so we can talk about them as one. Again, Stealth has both an offensive and defensive function. As a defender, you can draw attackers away to your supposedly weakly defended node. This reduces their attack strength at the main battle. As an attacker, especially working with another stealther or using the extremely undervalued Infiltrate, you can jump a poorly defended node and draw defenders away from a strong node. You don't need to keep hitting the weak side. Stealth just gives the opponent pause about leaving anything less than 2 defenders at a node. That leaves them potentially undermanned at another battle site (7v6).

 

I could talk for a long time about how stealth is a unique asset in a warzone, but I think this suffices. Pulling is its own unique ability. So is charging, so is speed. Stealth is another unique strength that only Ops (and Sins/Shadows) bring to WZs.

 

As always, the REAL question for me seems to be: Are Ops better than Sins? And the answer depends on your gear. Undergeared, Sins are definitely better. Once you get your Crit and Surge mods though, Ops win out in the burst department. In objective-based WZs, taking a node is all about minimizing response time to an attack. Burst ensures that you can knock down an opponent before their team can reinforce the node. Yes, we have less survivability. Yes, we have less utility in Huttball. But as a bursting class, Ops win out with equal gear to their Sin/Shadow counterparts; our crits just hit so hard.

 

(As an added bonus, our Internal Damage on Acid Blade, and our 30% Armor Pen, make us a lot better at bursting down even heavy armored targets)

[Bazzoong]

I strongly recommend against using Concealment in PVP currently unless you have completely reitemized War Hero Gear. The lack of Surge/Power enhancements at BM level [at least for Empire] significantly impacts the level of burst that the class can deal.

 

It needs 3 wh pieces to get surge >75%, earpiece, field tech boots and medic vibro knife.

 

Those are the 1st 3 items you will want to buy anyway due to the stats, once you can get those you`ll be fine.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Bazzoong

[Crittlesticks]

My stats currently:

http://i.imgur.com/gIfUc.jpg

 

I am able to maintain equal amounts of DPS as the other DPS classes in my guild, often beating them depending on the fight. I trail behind marauders some, but I would hardly call operatives useless. When I am able to maintain a decent rotation, I can maintain consistent DPS in the high 1400's.

 

My stats are not even perfect, I need more power.

 

My guild is currently clearing 8 man denova on hard mode for reference, so it is not like I am making these claims in story mode KP. The other players are also geared.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Crittlesticks

[TiTaNsFaN]

My stats currently:

http://i.imgur.com/gIfUc.jpg

 

I am able to maintain equal amounts of DPS as the other DPS classes in my guild, often beating them depending on the fight. I trail behind marauders some, but I would hardly call operatives useless. When I am able to maintain a decent rotation, I can maintain consistent DPS in the high 1400's.

 

My stats are not even perfect, I need more power.

 

My guild is currently clearing 8 man denova on hard mode for reference, so it is not like I am making these claims in story mode KP. The other players are also geared.

 

You didn't say who the other 2 DPS are. The marauder should be out-dpsing you consistently. Who else is in the raid?

[Crittlesticks]

It alternates between a Mercenary, a Sorc, Powertech, and another Mercenary. The Marauder is there every raid, normally. The other DPS work nights a lot so they rotate.

[TiTaNsFaN]

It alternates between a Mercenary, a Sorc, Powertech, and another Mercenary. The Marauder is there every raid, normally. The other DPS work nights a lot so they rotate.

 

The Powertech and sorc *should* be beating you if gear is equal in a typical raid fight. They have higher damage potential period; it may be a case of you outgearing or having more skill than them however.

 

Mercenarys however, since the last 2 nerfs have seen a huge DPS drop (heat signatures and whatnot not stacking) so operatives are actually above them. A plus I guess.

[Crittlesticks]

I guess my point was, and has always been on these types of posts, is that operatives are far from useless. I think that people who feel the need to come on the forums and cry about their class. Generally are the people who need to read and understand more about their class. They need to work on their skill rotation and their stat weights.

 

These things should all be optimized to the best of their ability before they even consider coming on the forums to whine about class balance.

 

I mean, a lot of the posts I see of peoples combat parses are pretty low, but then you look at the screenshot of their gear, and they are normally stacking power before they even reach their soft cap on crit and surge, or going through their logs you will see they let TA's just fall off. They could gain a significant amount of DPS simply by re-modding, and learning their skill priorities, but Instead they decide to make claims on the forums about their class being useless and whine and cry until bioware makes it easy for them.

 

The front page of the operative class forums should not be filled with posts that describe all of the issues that un-skilled players are having with the class, unless they are asking for advice or opinions. It needs to be suggestions, tips, and discussions leading to the betterment of players who enjoy playing the Operative class. If you feel that the class is truly broken, then post in the suggestions forums, or send bioware an email about it with detailed findings to back your claims.

 

Links like:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=414012

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=455000

 

These types of threads are helpful to the operative community, things like stats, skill rotations and log parses being posted and discussed.

 

Links like:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=299890

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=437281

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=412859

 

I see these types of threads on a daily basis, and I just don't bother posting in them anymore. The people that start threads like this are generally beyond help. They have it in their heads that they are amazing players and that obviously it is their class that is broken, not their mechanics. They do not help anyone, not the players, not Bioware. These threads have no place on these forums, and should be ignored, not bumped with whiny, annoying complainers until they reach an excessive number of thread views and page counts.

 

We need to stop the spread of missinformation about our class being "broken" or "useless" just because you are not number one on the damage meter does not make the class useless.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Crittlesticks

[Ryemfoh]

I guess my point was, and has always been on these types of posts, is that operatives are far from useless. I think that people who feel the need to come on the forums and cry about their class. Generally are the people who need to read and understand more about their class. They need to work on their skill rotation and their stat weights.

 

These things should all be optimized to the best of their ability before they even consider coming on the forums to whine about class balance.

 

I mean, a lot of the posts I see of peoples combat parses are pretty low, but then you look at the screenshot of their gear, and they are normally stacking power before they even reach their soft cap on crit and surge, or going through their logs you will see they let TA's just fall off. They could gain a significant amount of DPS simply by re-modding, and learning their skill priorities, but Instead they decide to make claims on the forums about their class being useless and whine and cry until bioware makes it easy for them.

 

I wish I could make this entire post my signature... well said Crittlesticks.

[teemoor]

It's not about usefulness. Stop saying that stuff. Op is a melee dps with no gap closer and raid buffs/debuffs. Maras are melee dps with gap closers and AWESOME raid buffs. And they do 200-400 dps more. So why would anyone take an operative over a mara?

[Ryemfoh]

It's not about usefulness. Stop saying that stuff. Op is a melee dps with no gap closer and raid buffs/debuffs. Maras are melee dps with gap closers and AWESOME raid buffs. And they do 200-400 dps more. So why would anyone take an operative over a mara?

 

Because they are a different class that brings different things to the table? Also because those numbers aren't accurate? But mostly, because they're fun to play!

 

This idea that all melee classes need a gap closer is ridiculous. Sure it would be nice to have, but our ranged DPS is too strong to justify it. Just because you're too lazy to hit the cover button doesn't mean that the class is broken.

[teemoor]

Because they are a different class that brings different things to the table?

 

WHAT other things? Raid buff? No. Boss debuffs? No. Raid protection/shield? No. They bring only themselves. And to make it clear - we're talking about bosses, not trash (who cares about trash). We don't even have a 1 min in-combat stun for KP rancor adds for example. And our interrupt is 10 meters, but a marauder can charge to interrupt from 30 meters away.

[Ryemfoh]

Well the pretty picture I drew for TiTaN was modded away (probably due to the veiled and not-so-veiled insults in the posts that surrounded it - or just because it hurt the mod's eyes ) ... Guess it's time to step down and let you those who continue to choose not to adapt to their class changes carry on their merry way. Edited May 15, 2012 by Ryemfoh

[TiTaNsFaN]

Well the pretty picture I drew for TiTaN was modded away (probably due to the veiled and not-so-veiled insults in the posts that surrounded it - or just because it hurt the mod's eyes ) ... Guess it's time to step down and let you those who continue to choose not to adapt to their class changes carry on their merry way.

 

The reason your picture is nonsense is because there is no operation where an Operative has time to run out of a big AOE, take cover and then do his pathetic ranged dps attacks on the boss.

 

In that same time, a mara can run out of this hypothetical AOE and force leap back to do 100% dps while the operative has to run back autoattacking at best.

[Arrys]

A stick figure picture is worth a thousand words...

 

I see we had the same art teacher.

[Qaoz]

Well the pretty picture I drew for TiTaN was modded away (probably due to the veiled and not-so-veiled insults in the posts that surrounded it - or just because it hurt the mod's eyes ) ... Guess it's time to step down and let you those who continue to choose not to adapt to their class changes carry on their merry way.

 

So, um, if the Operative's advantage over a Marauder is that the Operative can run out of melee range and do meh DPS for the duration of some AOE phase, why would they not just bring a Sniper? The Sniper can sit behind that rock for the entire fight and out-DPS the Operative even when the Operative is in melee range.

 

I don't get your point.

[Ryemfoh]

So, um, if the Operative's advantage over a Marauder is that the Operative can run out of melee range and do meh DPS for the duration of some AOE phase, why would they not just bring a Sniper? The Sniper can sit behind that rock for the entire fight and out-DPS the Operative even when the Operative is in melee range.

 

I don't get your point.

 

I didn't say that Operatives have an advantage over Mara's - what I did say was that the two are different and have different strengths and weaknesses (the same applies to Snipers). That particular drawing was to illustrate how we are still able to DPS during periods where Mara's are not, which means that if we had a gap closer as well as (poor but better than nothing) ranged DPS then we would be at a distinct advantage when fight mechanics force us out of melee range.

 

@TiTaN: A good example of this is the first boss in EV where our healers are perfectly happy for me and the other ranged DPS (usually a Sorc) to stay next to the pillars and continue DPS during the AoE phases - there's no real strain on them since it's just 2 of us, and if you do get in trouble you can just pop back behind the pillar.

[TiTaNsFaN]

I didn't say that Operatives have an advantage over Mara's - what I did say was that the two are different and have different strengths and weaknesses (the same applies to Snipers). That particular drawing was to illustrate how we are still able to DPS during periods where Mara's are not, which means that if we had a gap closer as well as (poor but better than nothing) ranged DPS then we would be at a distinct advantage when fight mechanics force us out of melee range.

 

@TiTaN: A good example of this is the first boss in EV where our healers are perfectly happy for me and the other ranged DPS (usually a Sorc) to stay next to the pillars and continue DPS during the AoE phases - there's no real strain on them since it's just 2 of us, and if you do get in trouble you can just pop back behind the pillar.

 

If your healers are letting you stay out why not just stay in melee range? If they/you aren't geared enough to allow for you to stay in melee then you shouldnt be out in the first place doing pitiful ranged dps. Horrible example.

Edited May 16, 2012 by TiTaNsFaN

[Qaoz]

I didn't say that Operatives have an advantage over Mara's - what I did say was that the two are different and have different strengths and weaknesses (the same applies to Snipers). That particular drawing was to illustrate how we are still able to DPS during periods where Mara's are not, which means that if we had a gap closer as well as (poor but better than nothing) ranged DPS then we would be at a distinct advantage when fight mechanics force us out of melee range.

 

The problem being that Operatives are then balanced around being unable to stand in melee range. Which, in my honest opinion, is a bit of a problem, given that the class is a melee range class.

 

It also completely cripples Operatives in PvP, having sub-par melee range DPS, pitiful ranged DPS and no mobility.

[hulkweazel]

I didn't say that Operatives have an advantage over Mara's - what I did say was that the two are different and have different strengths and weaknesses (the same applies to Snipers). That particular drawing was to illustrate how we are still able to DPS during periods where Mara's are not, which means that if we had a gap closer as well as (poor but better than nothing) ranged DPS then we would be at a distinct advantage when fight mechanics force us out of melee range.

 

@TiTaN: A good example of this is the first boss in EV where our healers are perfectly happy for me and the other ranged DPS (usually a Sorc) to stay next to the pillars and continue DPS during the AoE phases - there's no real strain on them since it's just 2 of us, and if you do get in trouble you can just pop back behind the pillar.

Actually, all our Marauders just stay in melee range to DPS during that phase due to their numerous defensive cooldowns that mitigate just about all the damage. Same thing for any other boss with AoE damage (Such as Garj and Toth and Zorn). If we have a DPS jugg, they can stay in longer, Intercede out then charge back in for extra damage.

 

Meanwhile, Operatives slow jog out, get into cover, do crap DPS then slow jog back in. In other words, even in WORST CASE SCENARIO, Marauders still have 100% uptime while Ops are at 50% uptime.

 

In other fights, the discrepancy is even worse. Take Stormcaller and Firebrand. After ever Defensive Position, Operatives have to slow jog their way back on top of the tank. They can't even use cover, since they have to get in melee range. Or Kephess, in which burst DPS phases are incredibly important, yet a lot of an Op's burst is wasted because they have to constantly switch targets across the room (ie. bomb droids, large robot, etc).

 

What's funny is you took the BEST scenario for an Operative (Long phase in which melee has to get out) while ignoring the most common scenarios (Switching targets, knockbacks) that happen to be worse off for Ops. Yet even in your self-selected best case scenario, Marauders still have less DPS loss.

[Ryemfoh]

If you're healers are letting you stay out why not just stay in melee range? If they/you aren't geared enough to allow for you to stay in melee then you shouldnt be out in the first place doing pitiful ranged dps. Horrible example.

 

Our healers can't heal up all the melee and themselves .. so everyone (including our Jugg and Mara) hides behind a pillar with me and the Sorc stay out to do a bit more DPS.

 

@hulk: In the other fights you mentioned again, our healers can't handle the damage of people staying in for AoE phases. We know that Jugg / Mara's have higher mobility than Operatives, and assign roles accordingly (although I do still help out with EP / grenade / OrbS on adds). As in any team-based game, different classes have different strengths and weaknesses - we choose our team based on player skill and assign roles based on both skill and class strengths. I fail to see how this is a bad thing.

 

Edit: I'm tired of having these same discussions and bumping these QQ threads while the ones with actual useful information for new Operatives fall off to the the 2nd+ page. I think I'll follow Crittlesticks' lead and just stop replying to these terrible threads unless a sensible question is asked.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Ryemfoh

[teemoor]

Well the pretty picture I drew for TiTaN was modded away (probably due to the veiled and not-so-veiled insults in the posts that surrounded it - or just because it hurt the mod's eyes ) ... Guess it's time to step down and let you those who continue to choose not to adapt to their class changes carry on their merry way.

 

Maras have a lot of room in their dps to stand with 0 dps for some time. And still will outdps operatives.

[hulkweazel]

Our healers can't heal up all the melee and themselves .. so everyone (including our Jugg and Mara) hides behind a pillar with me and the Sorc stay out to do a bit more DPS.

 

@hulk: In the other fights you mentioned again, our healers can't handle the damage of people staying in for AoE phases. We know that Jugg / Mara's have higher mobility than Operatives, and assign roles accordingly (although I do still help out with EP / grenade / OrbS on adds). As in any team-based game, different classes have different strengths and weaknesses - we choose our team based on player skill and assign roles based on both skill and class strengths. I fail to see how this is a bad thing.

 

Edit: I'm tired of having these same discussions and bumping these QQ threads while the ones with actual useful information for new Operatives fall off to the the 2nd+ page. I think I'll follow Crittlesticks' lead and just stop replying to these terrible threads unless a sensible question is asked.

No, as I said, our Marauders take NO DAMAGE during those phases as they have defensive cooldowns that negate all of it. They have 100% uptime while causing zero strain on the healers.

 

And again, you are using best case scenarios to say Ops are comparable while ignoring most common scenarios. Though the funny thing is, your best case scenario still has Marauders being 100% more desireable.