SWTOR PvP is dying but SWTOR PvE is thriving

[ScrollTroll]

I am a guild leader of a large guild on a PvP server. I have always played on PvP servers. However, PvP is dying fast in SWTOR on pvp servers. No, I did not say that SWTOR is dying because it is not. On the contrary, SWTOR is thriving on PvE servers. Lets take a look at PvP vs PvE server populations in SWTOR.

 

Today I counted 63 STANDARD population servers in the SWTOR server list. Of those 63 servers, only 6, less than 10% are pvp servers. 4 of the PvP servers in the top 64 are RP-PvP servers. I counted 36 LIGHT population PvP servers out of 65 total LIGHT population servers. My total numbers may be off by a server or two.

 

I think that it is safe to assume that much of the drop in population on SWTOR pvp servers has happened since patch 1.2. From these numbers we can draw the following concusions:

 

Most PvE servers are thriving in SWTOR.

RP and PvP-RP servers are thriving in SWTOR.

PvP servers are dying in swtor. Only two PvP servers are STANDARD population or higher.

The SWTOR PvP player base has overwhelmingly rejected the PvP changes in Patch 1.2. Patch 1.2 has caused a mass exodous of PvPers from SWTOR.

 

There is good news and bad news for BioWare in these conclusions. The good new is, SWTOR is a big hit with PvEers and Roleplayers. And the bad news is that PvPers have overwhelmingly rejected the current version of SWTOR pvp. Populations are so low on PvP servers that it is likely that PvPers would get more, faster Warzone queues and even more world pvp (you have to flag yourself for pvp on a pve or rp server) on a PvE server than a PvP server. For new pvpers coming to the game, you should roll on a PvE, RP or RP-PvP server if you want to get some pvp action. If there was any doubt that the PvP changes have had a negative effect on SWTOR pvp, the facts above should remove that doubt. Patch 1.2 has effectively ended PvP on 80% of the pvp servers in SWTOR.

 

PvPers are very hard to please and when you displease them, they vote with their feet by leaving the game. Is the problem the game or the excessive expectations of the PvPers themselves. PvPers expect:

 

Perfect class balance

Lag free pvp gaming

Cool graphics at high frame rates

Flawless pvp scenarios that are always fun

 

No MMORPG development company can meet these excessive expectations, incluing BioWware. Rather than give postive feedback to make the game better, PvPers often QQ, rage-quit, FotM reroll and faction swap. All of those reactions make things worse in pvp not better.

 

But is the failure of the pvp portion of patch 1.2 really the fault of hard-to-please pvpers? The numbers do not lie. BioWare, the overwhelming majority of pvpers just dont like patch 1.2. What is the solution for SWTOR PvP? I dont think the solution to SWTOR's PvP issues is fingerpointing, name-calling and playing the blame game. I think what is needed is a dialogue between the devs and the player base concerning SWTOR pvp. Lets use this thread to start one.

 

LOL of course the Avatar date is over a year old. Tell me how thrilled were you when you gave Bio permission to put your guild where they wanted to in return you got to get a special buff in warzones.

Edited May 9, 2012 by ScrollTroll

[JoeGuiDoe]

Well lets start from the beginning about PVP. There has been lots of concerns and lots of stress in this area.

 

-Open World pvp from launch has been a joke. You have to be lvl 50 to do any open world pvp for a (reward). Thats the problem. When you dont implement a system for open world pvp and dont give that same person a reward for there hard effort of killing someone.

Weve all watched as Illum just completely turned south because lack of content or lack of to fix it. Every time there was a fix to a fix it just got worse. Who's fault is this Bioware's fault for not haveing a experienced pvp design team. Because of this, is the reason people have left this game.

Were still waiitng for someone to fix illum.

 

Next issue is promotion of pvp. When there is no system to reward a player 1-49 for killing Imperial/Rebels why questing, then you get people saying well forget it. The same person says well i see that oppisite faction person questing here but theres no point for me to kill that person. <--This is the problem that needs to get fixed.

 

Lastly the way this game is going it would take a complete overhaul of pvp to fix it. No one likes being limited on a pvp server to a stupid 8 vs 8 only. Thats not pvp thats a arena.

 

The next thing that that needs to be brought up and lots of people dont want to hear it, but thats Star Wars Galaxies. The first Star Wars mmo that still has more fun pvp in it then this game. Why didnt some of them game ideas or pvp ideas come here.

 

Lastly i believe that lots of people hold star wars at a very high value. As i do. You cannot talk about star wars without massive battles and wars being waged. So like everyone else we expect FLAWLESS massive war pvp battles to take part in. Not some limited farm fest in a seculed area.

 

And i still believe this game should had been launched with no pvp restrictions or pvp limitations on a server. Which means i shouldnt had to limit or single myself out as a pvper on a pvp server.

That means this game should have been launched with the star wars battle feeling. So you should had been completely fully pvp ready at any given moment. Thats what star wsars is and should be. And if your not hear to engage in some type of star wars battle then you shouldnt be playing in star wars.

 

But who am i am just a lonely pvper in a game that still doesnt understand the game thought process of this games pvp, or the lack of.

[BlueFromMoon]

Agreed, PVE is awesome in this game. I kinda hope Elder Scroll Online takes that PVP place and Im good.

[rjkishida]

PVP has been dying/dead since patch 1.2 was put in. Despite the HUGE outcry by the pvp community and the respective class forums, bioware went ahead and put in the patch. I would say that PVE is dying also. There is too much overlap between planetary quests. Once you have been to a planet there is little to no replay value. Endgame revolved around repeating the same Flashpoints as before 50 and Ops are limited. Lack of balance is killing PVP. Lack of content is killing PVE

[HooDooMagic]

Since 1.2 came out the pvp community on my server has all but disappeared. Obviously a lot of people were disappointed with ranked play getting pulled at the last moment, but the number two complaint? Not enough huttball. People on my server at least are extremely upset about the change to voidstar.

 

Nowadays, pvp on my server mostly consists of new and/or undergeared imperials getting beat all day by die hard republic players in full war hero gear. It's a shame too because pvp was so much fun in this game when you'd get a match that was full preform vs full preform. Even the republic players on my server are getting frustrated and upset with the lack of quality competition, despite the fact that pvp is essentially free gear for them right now.

 

As a once dedicated pvper (full WH minus weapons, rank 84), I've called it quits and joined a pve guild since 90% of the people I used to pvp with have either quit the game or don't plan on renewing their subscriptions.

[Alpha-Llama]

Whose ever idea it was to make those pvp changes in 1.2 has a lot to answer for.

The tremors are still being felt in game because the unhappy players that leave encourage other players to do the same when they find a alternative MMO. `This is the way it has been for my guild friends anyway.

 

I really hope lessons are and were learnt by the dev team.

[Samaul]

Well lets start from the beginning about PVP. There has been lots of concerns and lots of stress in this area.

 

-Open World pvp from launch has been a joke. You have to be lvl 50 to do any open world pvp for a (reward). Thats the problem. When you dont implement a system for open world pvp and dont give that same person a reward for there hard effort of killing someone.

Weve all watched as Illum just completely turned south because lack of content or lack of to fix it. Every time there was a fix to a fix it just got worse. Who's fault is this Bioware's fault for not haveing a experienced pvp design team. Because of this, is the reason people have left this game.

Were still waiitng for someone to fix illum.

 

Next issue is promotion of pvp. When there is no system to reward a player 1-49 for killing Imperial/Rebels why questing, then you get people saying well forget it. The same person says well i see that oppisite faction person questing here but theres no point for me to kill that person. <--This is the problem that needs to get fixed.

 

Lastly the way this game is going it would take a complete overhaul of pvp to fix it. No one likes being limited on a pvp server to a stupid 8 vs 8 only. Thats not pvp thats a arena.

 

The next thing that that needs to be brought up and lots of people dont want to hear it, but thats Star Wars Galaxies. The first Star Wars mmo that still has more fun pvp in it then this game. Why didnt some of them game ideas or pvp ideas come here.

 

Lastly i believe that lots of people hold star wars at a very high value. As i do. You cannot talk about star wars without massive battles and wars being waged. So like everyone else we expect FLAWLESS massive war pvp battles to take part in. Not some limited farm fest in a seculed area.

 

And i still believe this game should had been launched with no pvp restrictions or pvp limitations on a server. Which means i shouldnt had to limit or single myself out as a pvper on a pvp server.

That means this game should have been launched with the star wars battle feeling. So you should had been completely fully pvp ready at any given moment. Thats what star wsars is and should be. And if your not hear to engage in some type of star wars battle then you shouldnt be playing in star wars.

 

But who am i am just a lonely pvper in a game that still doesnt understand the game thought process of this games pvp, or the lack of.

 

Good post. The only way to get balanced, server-wide world pvp is with 3 factions. Two faction pvp is always imbalanced in favor of one faction.

[DuriZap]

They put too many changes into a single patch. Implementing the massive Expertise shift along with tons of class rebalancing was an awful idea.

 

1. It made testing difficult. When people saw strange numbers coming out, there was no way to know exactly what was to blame. The lack of transfer for most testers made it worse, since it was hard to get a lot of solid data about level 50 pvp in 1.2 during testing (it was there, just not as much as there should've been for such a large change.)

 

2. As players, the changes have felt massive. Even small nerfs/buffs/balances have been exaggerated because they occurred with the Expertise overhaul. People always hate being nerfed and seeing others buffed -- but when that is compounded with a major reworking of a vital pvp component, it's a recipe for disaster.

 

Pulling Rated WZs was probably a good idea, but it was part of a larger problem. 1.2 Should've had the Expertise change OR extensive class balancing, NOT both. Class balancing should've been done in 1.2, with Expertise left as is and not inflated the way it was (let alone the changes to how it impacts dps/healing/etc). Then in 1.2.2, they could've adjusted Expertise if necessary, with extensive live play to see how the class changes functioned. This would've made the process smoother, and paved the way for excellent balance for Rated WZs.

 

Just my two credits.

 

I strongly aggree. BW needs to learn about baby-step procedure and cumulative effects when they try to balance the game. If you disregard these two factors....you get SWTOR 1.2.

[Raansu]

No, they are not leaving all servers. PvE servers, especially RP servers are thriving. Players are leaving SWTOR PvP, not SWTOR PvE and RP.

 

Right, thats why everyone re-rolls on the fatman (pvp) server instead of Jedi Covenant (pve) server which is one of the only other fairly populated servers but pails in comparison to what the fatman as currently.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Raansu

[Jederix]

Not sure why this is surprising. PvPers are a minority in MMOs, always have been. It's the same here.

 

Sure, 70% of people may have done PvP at one time in this game, but that is not the PvP population (those who PvP and do nothing else; why, in a game that has both, you would do this is beyond me). If the PvP population is more than 10% in any MMO, I'll eat my shorts.

 

No dedicated PvPer will ever admit this. Even the juggernaut, WoW, knows that PvPers are just a minor portion of their overall playerbase.

 

If you were a majority, the genre would be saturated with PvP centric MMOs. It isn't, because you aren't. You cannot sustain a game, and your leaving does little to affect the population.

 

Except you are very vocal about everything, especially negatively. You do affect the population this way.

[Eillack]

Nothing of SWTOR is thriving.

 

The subs are below 400k and tumbling.

 

Game is dead.

 

You facts amazing me !

 

So, what company do you work for?

[Twin]

These are my thoughts on what they could do to make PvP fun.

 

Open World PvP

Well yeah, its hard to implement OWPVP and make it work flawlessly. But atm it's allmost as if they went out of their way to actually prevent OpenWorld from happening at all!

Below is what i think should be done:

 

Cross-Faction Communication

Allow the factions to communicate by any and all means available. Mails, Whispers - Everything.

This allows the pvpers to easily talk to eachother and decide on cross-faction pvp events etc. I can't for the life of me understand why they deny us access to talk to the other faction by normal means.

 

Open World PvP Zones

Implement true open world pvp areas. No instances, just a plain open world area with pvp missions and desirable rewards that you need to work for. Scrap the instant gratification attitude, let us work for our achievments.

The rewards should not be anything overwhelming pvp-wise - Rather unique and desirable vanity items, emotes, titles, maybe minor boosts to certain stats (Think holocrons). These areas need to be several, spread over a varity of planets - and every zone should offer at least a few unique rewards, even if most of them (And the actual missions) can be the same.

 

Warzones

We need more warzones and optional cross server queuing. Also we need those rated's to go live while we still have an active pvp-playerbase. Ofc this is allrewady in process, but we need to hear about progress and timetable..

 

Player Bounty System

This would be an awesome feature -But needs to be implemented with careful thought, so it doesn't become a tool for griefing. It should be entertaining for both hunter and prey.

 

Thats the stuff, from the top of my head, that i think should be done asap, and then ofc there are alot of "bigger" things i'd love to see in game...such as Space PvP, Raidable Faction Bases, Smuggler PvP system, maybe even an Assassin/Sniper PvP mission system simular to Bounties? Maybe even against the BH on the hunt? =)

 

I dunno, there's so much stuff that could be done to make pvp awesome in this game....i hardly know where to begin..

 

//Twin

[Monkeybusiness]

We need to step down from this open world PvP complex and start thinking on something like a RvR.

Open world PvP seems to be un ideé fixe for a lot of people and i think they have no idea what they actually want.

 

PvP in it's current from is.... kinda saddening it will take a lot of love to get it back into the shape it used to be.

The change to the daily quest is understandable but it will have an opposite effect.

 

Diablo 3 is close, i see GW2 pulling alot of attention, i think BW is in for some serious competition, they need to step up, everything is in their hands.

 

.

[johnyangelo]

Nothing of SWTOR is thriving.

 

The subs are below 400k and tumbling.

 

Game is dead.

 

 

COOL STORY BRO !

[Twin]

We need to step down from this open world PvP complex and start thinking on something like a RvR.

Open world PvP seems to be un ideé fixe for a lot of people and i think they have no idea what they actually want.

 

PvP in it's current from is.... kinda saddening it will take a lot of love to get it back into the shape it used to be.

The change to the daily quest is understandable but it will have an opposite effect.

 

Diablo 3 is close, i see GW2 pulling alot of attention, i think BW is in for some serious competition, they need to step up, everything is in their hands.

 

.

 

SWTOR never had any real pvp appeal tbh, bar from the excitement of a brand new game. Open world pvp is what it is, and there is simply no reason not to encourage it. No confusion about what ppl want there, I'm confident that the devs could come up with awesome features for open world pvp if they just tried to. Because honestly, they haven't.

 

RvR would be nice as well - but i know not everyone want everything instanced. This game needs more freedom of choice, in all areas of gameplay. So yeah, i think OWPVP is a step in the right direction when expanding the pvp apsects of the current game.

 

This doesn't mean they should scrap everything else - i can't imagine the points i made in my post above would demand crazy ammounts of manhours to implement...

[Bluetickone]

Correct, very few servers are an exception to this quote.

There are still classes that have way too much dmg/utility and others are just fighting uphill battles.

 

Matchmaking has been an issue since day one (brackets fixed it partially).

On most servers the only way to enjoy PvP is as a 4-man premade, which is a minority.

WH PvP gear introduced --> massive grind --> pvp maniancs grinding all day with 4/8 man PM's

"Fresh" players are being discouraged to play PvP.

 

PvE is pretty much alive and kicking, my guildies are enjoying themselfs wonderful in Denova.

 

Lol@ the pve content. The made massive changes to healing 1.2 to supposedly "tighten" pve encounters. Guess what, they are still lame and super easy. EC story takes about 45-1hr. HM takes maybe 30 mins longer. No reason to grind dailies for silly relics that are a 2 percent upgrade. NiM KP can be 5-6 manned, easy.

 

pvp occupied 80 percent plus of the guilds time before 1.2, with 40+ people participating every night. Now there are a handful -- less than 7 -- that still pvp. Guess what, they are all sents/guard/vanguards.

[mikedee]

Trying to imagine how the garbage pve could be considered fun, then I realized you have to look at it the other way around.

 

Trying to imagine how dumb you would have to be to like the pve in this game..

 

Wow staggering..

 

Kind of hit the nail on the head there. Moving out of giant colored AoE's. Minimal movement bosses still. No thinking...No wonder so many people in ToR are so bad at pvp. They like to be fed with a spoon.

[Armelle]

OP: Your grasp of reality is tenuous, young padawan.

[Samaul]

Lol@ the pve content. The made massive changes to healing 1.2 to supposedly "tighten" pve encounters. Guess what, they are still lame and super easy. EC story takes about 45-1hr. HM takes maybe 30 mins longer. No reason to grind dailies for silly relics that are a 2 percent upgrade. NiM KP can be 5-6 manned, easy.

 

pvp occupied 80 percent plus of the guilds time before 1.2, with 40+ people participating every night. Now there are a handful -- less than 7 -- that still pvp. Guess what, they are all sents/guard/vanguards.

 

I disagree. I think that SWTORs PvE content is great. My guild is having a lot of fun in PvE. Some of us also like to pvp but not very often. Losing to overgeared imp premades just gets old.

[Genttry]

The facts are based on actual server data during prime time. It seems that some of you have a very negative and destructive agenda concerning SWTOR. Are you trying to destroy the game? Do you want people to stop queueing based on your doom and gloom?

 

This thread is designed to generate a constructive dialogue about SWTOR PvP.

 

Lol, please dude, just stop. You are going off on everyone who states that the game is dying. It is, no matter how you want to spin it. Further, forum posts won't destroy the game...bad PR, bad design and dead servers with frustrated players will. Have a little integrity and at least state that your mission in this thread is to increase morale and esprit de corp to a demoralized and mostly disappointed and broken payer base.

 

I'll admit that I love the SW franchise and I had high hopes for everything. I was naieve and bought into all of the hype this SWTOR team generated pre-release. I even leveled multiple characters, leveled a toon on the Fatman server and hung around post 1.2 to try my hardest to enjoy my game time. I hung around even when they pulled rateds out mere hours before 1.2 release.

 

I don't know much outside of the fact that the game lost app. 400k subs, and, despite disappointing profits from subs to SWTOR, Bioware ended the quarter doing okay based upon digital sales and their other games. (that is all publicly available info from business press releases and analysts) I also know that this game is not *thriving*....

Edited May 11, 2012 by Genttry

[Baizak]

Nothing of SWTOR is thriving.

 

The subs are below 400k and tumbling.

 

Game is dead.

 

Compelling argument sir. I will refute your enlightened and educated statement with...nu uh

[Macecrest]

They put too many changes into a single patch. Implementing the massive Expertise shift along with tons of class rebalancing was an awful idea.

 

1. It made testing difficult. When people saw strange numbers coming out, there was no way to know exactly what was to blame. The lack of transfer for most testers made it worse, since it was hard to get a lot of solid data about level 50 pvp in 1.2 during testing (it was there, just not as much as there should've been for such a large change.)

 

2. As players, the changes have felt massive. Even small nerfs/buffs/balances have been exaggerated because they occurred with the Expertise overhaul. People always hate being nerfed and seeing others buffed -- but when that is compounded with a major reworking of a vital pvp component, it's a recipe for disaster.

 

Pulling Rated WZs was probably a good idea, but it was part of a larger problem. 1.2 Should've had the Expertise change OR extensive class balancing, NOT both. Class balancing should've been done in 1.2, with Expertise left as is and not inflated the way it was (let alone the changes to how it impacts dps/healing/etc). Then in 1.2.2, they could've adjusted Expertise if necessary, with extensive live play to see how the class changes functioned. This would've made the process smoother, and paved the way for excellent balance for Rated WZs.

 

Just my two credits.

 

This exactly. I recall reading the game design blogs in World of Warcraft back in its prime. Players wanted huge changes right away, but game designers responded with a very important reason why they don't make sweeping changes. They said players generally respond negatively to too much change in a short period. WoW designers were always asking themselves "how much change is too much change?" and carefully paced their game design to reach a point where the majority had fun and balance expectations were eventually met.

 

When I first saw patch notes for 1.2, i thought to myself "I really hope this isn't too much too quickly". For better or worse, 1.2 implemented a new PvP design across the board that many players reacted negatively toward. If this game is going to survive at all, I really hope 1.3 changes much less in class balance.

[Lord_Karsk]

Point is !

 

I hae been on the most populated server in EU PvP before everyone started going to Nadd.

And now my server is only light, a very few times standard.Used to be heavy and even full.

And this goes for all EU PvP servers. The only servers i still see in EU at times beeing

standard are PvE servers. People talk ingame and they all say the same, they killed PvP

in 1.2 with that patetic gibbfest that is now.Not to mention no rankes WZ.Of course alot

of players will leave.My entire guild would have left had it not been for the new Raid.

 

Had we not had Raids to do we would have been raiding in Rift i'm guessing.

Are we all sad lvl 50 PbvP is dead of course.But what can we do when they have developers who

doesnt play their own game and who doesnt have a clue about good PvP or class balance.

And i will bet my behind that the most players that have left swtor is PvP players.

 

SWTOR PvP is grinding beyond, a gibbfest and un rewarding compared to PvE.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Lord_Karsk

[Tac_Obray]

Just Throwing this up here as an example of current Server Status on the 11th of May ( Friday Night at 10 P.M. (PST))

Server Status

Shows current status of server as reported by game and not a website.

SWTOR isn't dead, but she should really consider acting different if she wants to meet some new people.

If only she could stop changing her mind on how she wants to do things all the time.

[Baneberry]

PvE in this game is just as bad as the PvP in this game.

 

All the instances are short, easy, and catering to the casual raider who can't pay attention to the game long enough to know what a real night of progression wiping is all about.

 

The new op is a bad joke with 4 ridiculously simple bosses that any 1/2 way decent raiding guild should have had cleared in the first lockout on hard mode.

 

This game is not for the serious PvE content consumer.