"sentis/maras op since 1.2!!!" LOLWAT

[Ahebish]

Truth of the matter is this all has to do with the expertise change, and nothing to do with class balance at all.

 

Problem is ppl who r not as smart or kids who cant do math cant tell the difference between bad expertise scaling and class balance.

 

Linear scaling creates dangerously high numbers if stack properly, and thats why most other system uses decreasing average scale instead of linear. However bioware somehow drop the ball mathematically on that one, lol

 

Play concealment then come and talk to me. Let me know just how far that expertise carries 4 consecutive patch nerfs, 9 nerfs in 1.2 patch alone.

[thierryfying]

Long story short pre 1.2 these dots from mars were ticking for 1-2k/tick pre 1.2. But everyone was so focus'd on Hidden Strike on concealment that it escapes notice just as to how much damage it really does do compared to Hidden Strike. Relatively speaking it was as strong for mars as HS was for concealment/scrappers pre 1.2. But again mars/sents weren't a stealth class and that's the nitty gritty of it. They are under the radar.

 

To be fair it could be said they "FIXED" mars/sents but broke everything else.

 

maybe you should stop being so "focus'd" on your operative and its hidden strike nerf, and instead realise that the so-called 'buff' to marauder dots was in fact, a NERF.

 

when that ninja-nerf hit, many people were doing the math and observing a dps LOSS. but just in case you didnt bother with the math, in game you could actually VISUALLY see that you dots were ticking for a lot less.

 

prior to the 'buff', we had a +30% overall bleed damage talent (bugged, was supposed to be 30% crit damage), and another one giving +4% overall damage (was supposed to be 6%).

 

AFTER the 'buff', it was corrected to +30% bleed CRIT damage, and +15% overall bleed damage.

 

i wont go into too much math, but simply eyeballing those figures, you should be able to tell that it was in fact an overall dps nerf assuming fairly acceptable crit multiplier of ~70%. this was unless ofc, you're rocking an 80% crit chance, which just does not happen.

 

after that, the surge nerf hit, and damage was down across the board. so in essence, marauders took two nerfs to dps before 1.2

 

so stop being so "focus'd" on things you do not know.

[Sulvan]

"Maras are OP, survivability bla bla bla..."

 

All snipers MM are just laughing right now...

 

More maras on the battlefield, more targets for them

 

Strange thing, i see a lot of snipers reroll on 1-49 bracket.

 

My problem why i cant level my sniper is the fact with all the marauders and juggs out there i cast my aimed shot and then i see deflect deflect. Snipers are not all that great since most players are marauders now.

[Kaarsa]

My problem why i cant level my sniper is the fact with all the marauders and juggs out there i cast my aimed shot and then i see deflect deflect. Snipers are not all that great since most players are marauders now.

 

Well, thats why marauders have 6 sec debuf (obfuscate) lowering your accuracy by 90%, or they can use saber ward (50% defence buff). Thing is, obfuscate is rather short range and can be easily negated by your mezz (tech attack), and saber ward with 3 min CD and 12 sec duration is hardly a counter against anyone...

[slowantics]

Well, thats why marauders have 6 sec debuf (obfuscate) lowering your accuracy by 90%, or they can use saber ward (50% defence buff). Thing is, obfuscate is rather short range and can be easily negated by your mezz (tech attack), and saber ward with 3 min CD and 12 sec duration is hardly a counter against anyone...

 

i thought our 90% acc de buff doesnt work on ranged attacks or tech

[aRtFuL]

Play concealment then come and talk to me. Let me know just how far that expertise carries 4 consecutive patch nerfs, 9 nerfs in 1.2 patch alone.

 

It still has nothing to do with other dps classes regardless. In fact bioware didnt really buff any one classes damage, but as u mentioned, nerfed some instead.

 

It was the new expertise scale that skyrocketed a lot of the damages.

[Numerii]

 

Correction Sorc wasn't nerf'd it was fixed so people couldn't exploit heals and damage anymore. And yet they still top DPS charts by almost 50% compared to a concealment.

 

 

I'm not here to cry about Marauders or any other class, but this is just not right. Sorcerers were nerfed because they took away our ability to cast Chain Lightning instantly on Wrath procs. This was our only form of single-target burst(when combined with Death Field and Shock or a Lightning Barrage-buffed Force Lightning). I agree that the AE damage it allowed us to do was in need of a nerf, however some compensation should have been given in the form of single-target burst. IMO, they should have just coded Chain Lightning to only hit one target any time it was cast instantly with a Wrath proc.

 

What was broken about Sorcerers, and still is, is that we were/are still able to "double dip" on those Lightning Barrage procs to get two quick channels of Force Lightning off. Should they fix this finally, you'll probably see Sorcerer damage cut by quite a bit on the final scorecard. The bad thing is, that's about the only thing really keeping DPS Sorcerers competitive atm. Take that away and we really will have no form of burst whatsoever.

[Tkara]

Master Strike can no longer be interrupted, and its damage has been increased by approximately 15%.

 

That is BS, myself and others have had this interrupted several times recently.

[Navvak]

OP, you're making a very basic mistake. It is only in relation to other classes that anything can be considered overpowered. Classes don';t operate in vacuums. No, the changes might not seem like a huge deal to you, but then that would be relative to the other class changes. Which you don't mention.

 

As an example, you quote : "And for all the guarded by the force/undying rage whiners - it's there since 1.0, even since the beta, and there wasn't a single thread about it before 1.2"

 

TTK has changed in 1.2. Therefore do you not think the efficacy of this ability has also changed, RELATIVELY?

 

Let me help you.

 

rel·a·tive

   [rel-uh-tiv]

noun

1. a person who is connected with another or others by blood or marriage.

2. something having, or standing in, some relation to something else.

3. something dependent upon external conditions for its specific nature, size, etc. ( opposed to absolute).

4. Grammar . a relative pronoun, adjective, or adverb.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Navvak

[Kaarsa]

i thought our 90% acc de buff doesnt work on ranged attacks or tech

 

Working on melee/ranged, not tech/force.

[Bpotux]

 

As an example, you quote : "And for all the guarded by the force/undying rage whiners - it's there since 1.0, even since the beta, and there wasn't a single thread about it before 1.2"

 

 

 

Except before 1.2 Sent / Mara couldn't wreck two people while under its effect, now they can, so it's time to change it.

[exphryl]

That is BS, myself and others have had this interrupted several times recently.

 

Perhaps you are playing your Sentinel wrong ?

[Savej]

Maras cannot wreck two ppl in 5 seconds in any wz. Use a kb w/ root on an undying mara and by the time he gets back to you he'll have half-health and be just as squishy as anyone.

[Bpotux]

Maras cannot wreck two ppl in 5 seconds in any wz. Use a kb w/ root on an undying mara and by the time he gets back to you he'll have half-health and be just as squishy as anyone.

 

They can break the CC / root, and leap right back to you. But you already knew that. Insert class name vs Mara wack each other to 30% HP - Mara pops shield, game over insert class name here, no ifs or buts about it. Every time.

[Pekish]

other class got nerfed? my tank-shadow feel exactly the same

 

whiner will keep whine

[HurricaneXXIV]

Pre 1.2 any class in heavy armor could stay and tank a sent with a heal being thrown their way once every 10 seconds. Healers could run into the middle of a fight and tank 1-2 dps while healing.

 

Post 1.2 Mercs/Commandos can't tank melee while tracer/grav round spamming. Healers can't run into the middle of the melee and heal.

 

When the patch first came out everyone died, now people have adapted with guards, taunts and greater situational awareness. This patch decreased survibility for everyone and made the game feel quicker and made the difference in skill show up quite a bit more. With how quickly someone dies there is far less forgiveness for bad situational awareness or not knowing other classes.

[-Eternal-]

Here are the changes made to sentinel in 1.2

 

Awe no longer costs Focus to activate.

It's a mezz. With 1 min cd. Doesn't make much difference.

 

Dispatch can now be used on targets at or below 30% of maximum health (up from 20%).

Well guess what. All other classes can use their execute ability @ 30%

 

Force Kick no longer costs Focus to activate.

It's an interrupt. Nothing else.

 

Force Leap now places a "root" visual effect on the affected target.

Probably the most OP thing EVER.

 

Master Strike can no longer be interrupted, and its damage has been increased by approximately 15%.

The ONLY damage increase. It's a 30 sec cd. Just stun/knockback/move 5 steps to the side and there you go, you interrupted it.

 

Crippling Throw's "Trauma" effect can no longer be cleansed.

It's the only thing that can prevent 2-3 healers healing each other. Should had been uncleansable from the start.

 

Force Camouflage now additionally reduces all damage taken by 50% while active.

Just fyi, before 1.2 we could had spec'd into 100% damage reduction. And there was no QQ about it.

 

Pacify no longer has a Focus cost and is no longer limited by the global cooldown.

Considering the massive damage it deals, yeah, it's sooooo imba.

 

Transcendence now affects all Operation Group members.

It's a bug fix.

 

Zen (while in Ataru Form) now additionally reduces the Focus cost and global cooldown of Cyclone Slash.

Nothing to see here.

 

Focused Pursuit has been replaced by Focused Leap, which increases the Focus generated by Force Leap.

Doesn't change anything for watchman, since it was possible to get it pre-1.2.

 

Force Fade no longer grants damage reduction while Force Camouflage is active. It now increases the duration of Force Camouflage by 1 second per point and increases the movement speed bonus of Force Camouflage by 10% per point.

Good thing to waste 2 points tbh.

 

Inflammation now applies a 50% movement speed reduction (up from 30%).

YAAAAAAAAAAAAY IT'S USEFUL

 

Valor is now located in Tier 1 of the skill tree and has replaced Quick Recovery.

So we lost pretty much any aoe (except for focus spec).

 

 

There you go. Now which change caused all of the QQ threads to appear?

 

And for all the guarded by the force/undying rage whiners - it's there since 1.0, even since the beta, and there wasn't a single thread about it before 1.2.

 

Just because your precious tracer lightning spam got nerfed, doesn't mean all of the other classes should get nerfed as well. It just shows how bad you are, when you have to use more than 1 button.

That is all.

 

PS.: L2P

 

TL;DR: The ONLY damage increase in 1.2 for sentis/maras was the 15% buff for master strike/ravage, guarded/undying rage was there since 1.0, so how come there was no QQ about it before?

 

 

 

If you cannot see Marauder is OP then you are not pvping enough. It is a clear and evident imbalance.

[Savej]

Not on my server it isn't evident or clear at all. What's your evidence (outside of theorycrafting)?

[Antipodes]

That's an awfully long list to spin as not being buffs

 

Just the execute and master strike/ravage buffs alone are immediately noticeable. Having cauterize at 50% snare is huge for getting damage off faster (rather than wasting a global/focus on the other snare). All of the reduced focus costs add up also, and its great to be able to use my AoE CC immediately if I get opened up on without any focus. Uncleansable healing debuff is great considering good healers use cleanse on themselves to get rid of my bleeds anyways.

 

I also spec into the force camo talents. I like having the extra speed and two more seconds of 50% less damage. It's fantastic for buying time for healers, or just reducing dot damage as I close the gap on a ranged class.

[Tiaa]

Spot on OP!

 

 

People still don't understand that the expertise changes are whats causing the problem and not my class.

 

Oh! That explains why a Marauder takes more than half my health with one attack!

 

Oh wait! No it doesn't because I wear Battlemaster gear!

 

Fact is, you people playing this class know they are easy mode.

 

You are just living it up because you will have to roll the next FOTM class.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Tiaa

[carbocat]

A funny thing..

 

Before patch there was many maras on my server that was realy bad, but after 1.2 hit they are in good mode with top dmg in wz. Suddenly they went from bad to avarage/good..... explain that?

 

If maras wasnt so OP, why do you only see maras in 10-49 bracket? why so many re-rollers? why would they bother if they wasnt OP?

 

And a little funny story; I day in WZ, a mara couldnt kill me 1v1 (me oprative heal) he whispered me; l2p, u suck, u are OP, u will be nerfed zomg! ....the irony.....

[Obie_Wan]

That's an awfully long list to spin as not being buffs

 

Just the execute and master strike/ravage buffs alone are immediately noticeable. Having cauterize at 50% snare is huge for getting damage off faster (rather than wasting a global/focus on the other snare). All of the reduced focus costs add up also, and its great to be able to use my AoE CC immediately if I get opened up on without any focus. Uncleansable healing debuff is great considering good healers use cleanse on themselves to get rid of my bleeds anyways.

 

I also spec into the force camo talents. I like having the extra speed and two more seconds of 50% less damage. It's fantastic for buying time for healers, or just reducing dot damage as I close the gap on a ranged class.

 

Exactly. Guardian here.

 

Master Strike being uninterruptable and not being mentioned at all? OP really doesn't see his stuns, knockbacks, and mezzes as being his lifelines in PVP, does he? I dare anybody to try to take only 5 steps away from my Master Strike and see if they can get out of its range in time before the third hit strikes. The damage boost was needed, but the uninterruptable bit certainly was not. Forcing another class to pop a stun/knockback to stop a painful hit already makes Guardians of all specs a whole lot formidable, now that it's uninterruptable it drops our skill ceiling. It's even worst for Combat Sentinels with the root. OP is blatantly biased, that or doesn't truly comprehend the advantages he's got with his AC, either way shrugging off Master Strike buffage in 1.2 is a sure fire way to sinking your credibility.

 

As the previous said, not having to pay focus to interrupt and to Awe it's given me the opportunity to stop myself from taking damage when I'm done Slashing people in Focus spec and exhausted my focus points. I've lost count how many times I've stopped an incoming Ravage/Master Strike when my Force Push and Stasis CD are down by popping Awe and not have to waste another GCD to fuel my momentum.

 

Every. Little. Bit. Counts. And these are only things that benefited us Guardians as well. You might be able to delude yourself that you're somehow winning all these fights through sheer gameplay talents alone, but trust me you're largely just coasting by through stacked game mechanics just like most average Shadow Tank DPS, and Assault Vanguards. Your (honest) lack of knowledge of the advantages of your own AC is just ample proof of that.

[whitescorpion]

Nerf the F uu uuuuu ck outta em!

[L-RANDLE]

Not on my server it isn't evident or clear at all. What's your evidence (outside of theorycrafting)?

 

IMO Mauraders damage output is fine, they should be the best. I use three IMP mauraders (Sion, Belmont, Bashido) as my basis. I met up against them all the time on PuGs, premades, whatever. I gave them a run for there money pre-1.2, now I am just a speed bump (albeit a nasty one, who revels in slowing them down... "nameplate x" = insta-target).

 

 

Is it because they are OP'd? No. Its because of a group of factors most notably the reduction from expertise gains on mitigation and healing. Now there offense is now giving them survivability, instead of JUST the DCD's and if you add in a healer...pretty close to unstoppable. Solutions? Nerf all internal damage procs 50%, increase the CD on undying rage/guarded by the force to 3mins (as this is more powerful than any stim/adre/relic combo, they should have the same CD as saber ward) .

Edited April 30, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[Scoobings]

Here are the changes made to sentinel in 1.2

 

Awe no longer costs Focus to activate.

It's a mezz. With 1 min cd. Doesn't make much difference.

 

Dispatch can now be used on targets at or below 30% of maximum health (up from 20%).

Well guess what. All other classes can use their execute ability @ 30%

 

Force Kick no longer costs Focus to activate.

It's an interrupt. Nothing else.

 

Force Leap now places a "root" visual effect on the affected target.

Probably the most OP thing EVER.

 

Master Strike can no longer be interrupted, and its damage has been increased by approximately 15%.

The ONLY damage increase. It's a 30 sec cd. Just stun/knockback/move 5 steps to the side and there you go, you interrupted it.

 

Crippling Throw's "Trauma" effect can no longer be cleansed.

It's the only thing that can prevent 2-3 healers healing each other. Should had been uncleansable from the start.

 

Force Camouflage now additionally reduces all damage taken by 50% while active.

Just fyi, before 1.2 we could had spec'd into 100% damage reduction. And there was no QQ about it.

 

Pacify no longer has a Focus cost and is no longer limited by the global cooldown.

Considering the massive damage it deals, yeah, it's sooooo imba.

 

Transcendence now affects all Operation Group members.

It's a bug fix.

 

Zen (while in Ataru Form) now additionally reduces the Focus cost and global cooldown of Cyclone Slash.

Nothing to see here.

 

Focused Pursuit has been replaced by Focused Leap, which increases the Focus generated by Force Leap.

Doesn't change anything for watchman, since it was possible to get it pre-1.2.

 

Force Fade no longer grants damage reduction while Force Camouflage is active. It now increases the duration of Force Camouflage by 1 second per point and increases the movement speed bonus of Force Camouflage by 10% per point.

Good thing to waste 2 points tbh.

 

Inflammation now applies a 50% movement speed reduction (up from 30%).

YAAAAAAAAAAAAY IT'S USEFUL

 

Valor is now located in Tier 1 of the skill tree and has replaced Quick Recovery.

So we lost pretty much any aoe (except for focus spec).

 

 

There you go. Now which change caused all of the QQ threads to appear?

 

And for all the guarded by the force/undying rage whiners - it's there since 1.0, even since the beta, and there wasn't a single thread about it before 1.2.

 

Just because your precious tracer lightning spam got nerfed, doesn't mean all of the other classes should get nerfed as well. It just shows how bad you are, when you have to use more than 1 button.

That is all.

 

PS.: L2P

 

TL;DR: The ONLY damage increase in 1.2 for sentis/maras was the 15% buff for master strike/ravage, guarded/undying rage was there since 1.0, so how come there was no QQ about it before?

 

There was no QQ before because the TTK (Time to kill) was much longer. So, 5 seconds of invulnerablility of a 20-30 second fight wasn't that big of a deal. After the changes to healing expertise etc., the TTK has dropped. Now we're looking at 10-15 second long fights. 5 seconds of invulnerability is a much bigger deal when we have this much of a shorter fight.

 

Plus, I'm pretty sure there's always been a relatively muted complaint about mauraders in general, and specifically Undieing rage. Before 1.2 patch notes were released the nerf UR threads were starting to pop up here and there (around the same frequency as nerf PT threads). The only difference is now fights are shorter, so your invulnerability has a much higher percentage of up time in fights. If that makes sense.

 

That's why people have a problem with it now, even though mauraders didn't really get buffed that much.