Dear Expertise, You Are Terrible

[Timadan]

If you remove expertise then PvE is mandatory to pvp. If you remove expertise you let the raiders steamroll the pvpers.

 

That's bad.

 

This is not necessarily true, all that needs to be done is top tier pvp gear needs to equal top tier pve gear. This allows the player to chose the path they wish to take to acquire their end game gear set. This also doesn't restrict a pvp player from pve content in the pvp gear nor is the pve player restricted from pvp because they don't want to go through the horror that is gearing up in pvp.

 

All that aside the more focused pve players will not be as effective in pvp and vice a versa.

 

Also I might add that right now a raider freshly entering pvp is being steam rolled by the pvpers. But I suppose you find that fine?

Edited May 2, 2012 by Timadan

[Gorghte]

To revisit the original purpose of this thread.

 

Expertise in the short run, right now as we are it is okay, it sucks to start w/ 0, but when you look at the percentages, and by how far we are into the "progression" of the game, it's going to sputter out REALLY quick, as of 1.2 there are 3 levels of PVP Gear, w/ BM Gear right now

Recruit Full blue set has 896 Expertise - Increasing damage by ~18.20%

Battle Master - has 1164 Expertise - Increasing Damage done by ~22.23%

War Master - has 1291 Expertise - Increasing Damage Done by ~23.95%

 

The level of increase was to drastic to start with, i.e. it needs to be revised, either to a different system or it needs to have the values equalized, most likely top end should be prlly around 15% (speculative) where I also believe that instead of the top value being offensive, it should be the Defensive Side.

(i.e. Current Value of BM Offense(increase)/Defensive(decrease) -> 22.23%/18.18% | what I would like to see Offense(Increase)/Defensive(Decrease) -> 18.18%/22.23% - But I play a tank assassin in PVP and like taking less damage, that might be biased)

 

Then notice the difference in values between Recruit and BM(1 Tier move) approx 4%, but when we move from BM to WM Still one Tier, but such a minor change of 1.62%, they may have realized they are going to reach astronomical bonus damages by the first expansion so they reduced the "progression" but if there is a 1.62% difference between BM and WM Gear the alt stats have to have a big difference (haven't researched that).

 

Well it's not much but it is a start. Let's try to focus on Expertise as a stat, that can stick around for a long time. (and not get to 150% Bonus Damage)

 

Your argument about the damage increase percentages completely ignores the damage mitigation of Expertise. You stated that the BM mitigation is 18.18%. The math has been done over and over by Khoraji in other threads. This leads to a nearly 0% damage change in equal geared players. It also reduces the difference between BM and WH from 1.62% to 1.42%.

 

Attack 1000 dam * 1.2395 = 1239.5

Mitigation 1239.5 * 0.8182 = 1014.15

 

So WH geared players do 14.2 more pts of damage per 1000 to a BM players.

 

I believe Recruit gear provides about 15% mitigation.

 

So WH geared players do 53.6 more pts of damage per 1000 to recruit players. more significant but not game breaking.

 

It is game breaking when you have 0 expertise which is 239.5 points of damage per 1000. It is not expertise that is broken or a bad stat, It is players who don't get the minimum level of expertise that is provided for a small cost and wonder why they take huge damage.

[Gorghte]

This is not necessarily true, all that needs to be done is top tier pvp gear needs to equal top tier pve gear. This allows the player to chose the path they wish to take to acquire their end game gear set. This also doesn't restrict a pvp player from pve content in the pvp gear nor is the pve player restricted from pvp because they don't want to go through the horror that is gearing up in pvp.

 

All that aside the more focused pve players will not be as effective in pvp and vice a versa.

 

Also I might add that right now a raider freshly entering pvp is being steam rolled by the pvpers. But I suppose you find that fine?

 

PvE and PvP do not scale equally so giving equal stats will at some point break one or the other. In general PvE content scales much faster than PvP. Which means that mob hit points and damage grow at a much faster rate than player hit points and damage. So in order to balance, PvE gear needs to scale at a faster pace or content becomes impossible. If this gear is then used against players, it reduces TTK which a lot of people already have a problem with in PvP. At the 3 or 4 tiers of gear we have now, it isn't a huge issue, but when you get to tier 8 or 10 players would likely be 1 shotting each other.

 

They made a design decision to add expertise to PvP gear so they could scale PvE and PvP separately with out negatively impacting one or the other.

[Vodrin]

PvE and PvP do not scale equally so giving equal stats will at some point break one or the other. In general PvE content scales much faster than PvP. Which means that mob hit points and damage grow at a much faster rate than player hit points and damage. So in order to balance, PvE gear needs to scale at a faster pace or content becomes impossible. If this gear is then used against players, it reduces TTK which a lot of people already have a problem with in PvP. At the 3 or 4 tiers of gear we have now, it isn't a huge issue, but when you get to tier 8 or 10 players would likely be 1 shotting each other.

 

They made a design decision to add expertise to PvP gear so they could scale PvE and PvP separately with out negatively impacting one or the other.

Honestly that is really just lazy design. If progressively higher tier and more difficult content is more difficult because of mechanics that require greater coordination on the part of the raid, and are more unforgiving to mistakes, then gear does not have to scale as quickly stat wise. Because BW made the choice to make progressive tiers more of a gear check by increasing the hitpoints of mobs/bosses, shortening enrage timers, and making them hit harder (the easy way of adding difficulty), the problem noted above was created.

 

It is possible to have PvP and PvE gear with equal stat budgets and all the same stats thus allowing players to gear up by either method and increases access to PvP and PvE content for a larger section of the playing population. This also can be used to reduce the difference in stat budget from introductory epic gear to the best set in the game again improving access to content. It's the best way in my opinion to deal with the problems created by vertical progression scaling.

[Gorghte]

Honestly that is really just lazy design. If progressively higher tier and more difficult content is more difficult because of mechanics that require greater coordination on the part of the raid, and are more unforgiving to mistakes, then gear does not have to scale as quickly stat wise. Because BW made the choice to make progressive tiers more of a gear check by increasing the hitpoints of mobs/bosses, shortening enrage timers, and making them hit harder (the easy way of adding difficulty), the problem noted above was created.

 

It is possible to have PvP and PvE gear with equal stat budgets and all the same stats thus allowing players to gear up by either method and increases access to PvP and PvE content for a larger section of the playing population. This also can be used to reduce the difference in stat budget from introductory epic gear to the best set in the game again improving access to content. It's the best way in my opinion to deal with the problems created by vertical progression scaling.

 

I cannot argue against the fact that it may be lazy design.

 

However, your argument about improving access to content can be argued against. In my opinion tactics ("mechanics that require greater coordination on the part of the raid, and are more unforgiving to mistakes") are much harder and more time consuming to learn and reduce access to content more than gear grind ever could. Basically some people have to watch/read and copy the tactics of the top end groups to already do some of the boss fights rather than be able to figure it out on their own due to time constraints, group composition, pick up groups, etc. As those tactical requirements increase, it will just make the content less accessible.

 

Personally, I like trying to figure out the boss fights rather than relying on someone who has already done it to tell me how. However, me and my guildmates do not have the time (or patience some days) to do it over and over again to finally get everything perfect. So for us a mix of gear progression and minimal tactics works best for increasing difficulty.

 

As for gearing up by either means, while I do not agree with them, you know people will cry that it is too easy to gear up in PvP or PvE and claim you have to do one or the other to be competitive. Regardless of the system implemented some portion of the player base will want it to be the way they want rather than the way it is. It really is a no win situation for the designers.

[DarthPunitor]

This is not necessarily true, all that needs to be done is top tier pvp gear needs to equal top tier pve gear. This allows the player to chose the path they wish to take to acquire their end game gear set. This also doesn't restrict a pvp player from pve content in the pvp gear nor is the pve player restricted from pvp because they don't want to go through the horror that is gearing up in pvp.

 

All that aside the more focused pve players will not be as effective in pvp and vice a versa.

 

Also I might add that right now a raider freshly entering pvp is being steam rolled by the pvpers. But I suppose you find that fine?

 

I find that a clever argument. This is why i normally reserve my debating to the lore forums.

 

However, I vehemently believe that raiders being face rolled in pvp DESERVE to be face rolled. If theyre too cheap to get the recruit set then they shouldn't be in there to begin with.

 

Also, the recruit set is actually pretty damn good. right around champion equivalent.

[Bastus]

I never liked the idea of Expertise. If they wanted balance, they could add another PVP bracket. I really hope it is removed.

[Timadan]

I find that a clever argument. This is why i normally reserve my debating to the lore forums.

 

 

Also, the recruit set is actually pretty damn good. right around champion equivalent.

 

I honestly think you are serious here, other than the expertise the recruit set and champion set is utter garbage. A fresh 50 enters their first war zone with around 13k health, and might as well be swinging a plastic bat for all the more damage they can do. Where as with only 2 pieces of WH and the main hand the rest all battle master I sit at over 17 k on a scound.

[Kracin]

they wanted to make it so you can't pve in pvp gear... except i see lots of people using PvP tank battlemaster sets, tanking PvE better than columni provides... lol. GJ bioware, you really did your homework. my full PvE tank set has less health and less defensive stats than BM tank

[Feyak]

Your argument about the damage increase percentages completely ignores the damage mitigation of Expertise. You stated that the BM mitigation is 18.18%. The math has been done over and over by Khoraji in other threads. This leads to a nearly 0% damage change in equal geared players. It also reduces the difference between BM and WH from 1.62% to 1.42%.

 

Attack 1000 dam * 1.2395 = 1239.5

Mitigation 1239.5 * 0.8182 = 1014.15

 

So WH geared players do 14.2 more pts of damage per 1000 to a BM players.

 

I believe Recruit gear provides about 15% mitigation.

 

So WH geared players do 53.6 more pts of damage per 1000 to recruit players. more significant but not game breaking.

 

It is game breaking when you have 0 expertise which is 239.5 points of damage per 1000. It is not expertise that is broken or a bad stat, It is players who don't get the minimum level of expertise that is provided for a small cost and wonder why they take huge damage.

 

It appears that multiple people have missed the point of my previously posted statement. To reiterate, It is really easy to get the current baseline Expertise, what the issue is, look 6 months into the future, either multiple content patches away, or expansions. You are going to rise to fast for it to matter if you can buy the gear. You have to fight against people that are doing massive amounts more damage.

 

This is the equation as pulled from: http://dulfy.net/2012/03/22/pvp-gearing-in-1-2/

 

PvP Damage Bonus % = 50 * ( 1 – ( 1 – ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( Expertise / 50 ) / 0.8 ) )

 

When I checked the equation it appears that the top end of their Expertise ranking is 50% bonus Damage.

 

So we are running at half way to our top line damage boost, at the second content patch.... doesn't seem like it will work in the long run. Just putting this out there

 

To add onto that, those at the same amount of gear (exp rating) are not part of this discussion, if you pit someone with the same lvl of gear against each other it is balanced, it's those who are just starting that are going to feel the massive part of the unbalance.

 

*edit* removed a part that made no sense going to reword as different post

Edited May 2, 2012 by Feyak
adding

[Finnius]

Full time jobs don't leave much time for keeping up with forums, so I'm just going to address a couple of the points that have been brought up so far.

 

1. Why am I being insulting to the PVP players and calling them out on not wanting to fight on a slightly higher gear level rather than a massively overpowering gear level?

I'd hope the answer to that one lies in the question. As for why I choose to word it the way I do, it's because I'm tired of the PVP crowd slinging insults casually and not getting called on their ********.

 

2. But won't normalizing stats SOMEHOW unbalance everything else? Even if PVE gear has better set bonuses for PVE and PVP gear has better set bonuses for PVP?

How? Remember, expertise gear, while it has lower stats than PVE gear, also directly increases damage done and decreases damage taken from other players. It's almost like expertise acts as both primary damage stats and primary defense stats all at the same time. So just add those stats and do away with the middle man. The only difference is now all the gear is good in all the game.

 

3. But lol Bioware just wants to make money off forcing you to grind two sets of gear!

And that's fine, and it's their right as a company to do so. What it isn't is good business to do it in this manner. The more of your player base you can include in any given part of your game, the more vibrant your overall game will be. Long queue times and impossibly skewed matches don't make anyone want to play, which leads to burnout and subscription loss.

 

4. You're just dumb and bitter and must be a BADDIE!

And you must be an illiterate ****.

 

5. Are you Finnius from AoC?

No, but if he also talked sense, I'm glad we share a namesake. Never met the guy.

 

6. But what if X gear is easier to get than Y gear?! Won't the PVP players be screwed over?!

Have you ever seriously raided? Getting a specific piece of gear to drop can be like pulling teeth, but most raiders accept that. On the other hand, PVP gear is gained in a steady progression, win or lose. I don't hear many PVE players screaming that if a PVPer has gear and skill he should be disallowed from a raid. I do hear PVPers wailing that raiders should not be able to PVP, even if they have the same gear and skill. Seems like a double standard.

 

7. But what if PVPers start dominating end game PVE content?! Huh?! What then?!

If your PVP-centered gear that just happens to have the same stats as the PVE-centered gear but no set bonuses that are terribly well suited to PVE ends up getting you into more raids than a similarly geared guy in PVE gear, it's likely because you're a better raider than him. So good for you, more power to ya.

 

Now let's all try and be civil and hope that one day in the next ten years someone on the PVP design team will actually address how stupid an idea expertise is.

[Happy-Killer]

Guys relax, in 1.3 you'll be able to buy BM gear for dirt cheap and War Hero gear will only take you 2 days to grind out. This is BW's plan for a sustainable MMO. LOL

[Osnodon]

They use expertise because they don't want the guys in full heroic top tier raiding gear dominating. It happened in WoW and they wanted to avoid that here. If you had a full armor pen warrior with Shadowmourne he would never even consider stacking up resilence and its what they want to avoid. Its much easier to acquire pvp gear than it is to acquire top tier heroic pve gear. The idea of combining the two sets into just one set of epic gear is just silly and will never happen.

 

Pretty simple answer.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Osnodon

[Finnius]

I am starting to believe that the PVP kids don't actually read and just twitch-repost the same arguments that have been addressed time and time and time again. Oh well, can't force people to learn to read.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I am starting to believe that the PVP kids don't actually read and just twitch-repost the same arguments that have been addressed time and time and time again. Oh well, can't force people to learn to read.

 

Honestly, I hate to jump on a "trash-talk" band wagon, but I've got to agree. Over and over different ideas have been suggested, arguements refuted, etc... and there is a slew of reposted nonsense. Starting to think PvP'ers just think their special.

 

(Not @post quoted) I'm a pvp'er. I'm a pve'er. I am a gamer. I am not special, I do not need my own "special" pvp gear or "special" pve gear. And I'm the lazy one despite being willing to raid for pvp gear if needed? (Not advocating it, but don't call me lazy for not wanting two gear grinds if you are unwilling to raid for gear cause you "don't like it.")

Edited May 3, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[Aussiedroid]

I am starting to believe that the PVP kids don't actually read and just twitch-repost the same arguments that have been addressed time and time and time again. Oh well, can't force people to learn to read.

 

I hear ya!

 

Its the way society is going, regrettably most cannot reason/discuss/consider different points of view and are unwilling to change their stance - they know what they know and everything else is wrong. Its the attitude that I am right and you are wrong .. there is no inbetween. Its sad really...

 

At the end of the day I just hope Bioware is not as black and white as responses from ignorant people in the forums and that constructive comments and suggestions are noted. We don't really need to convince the players, just Bioware that there is an issue.

[Razot]

I hear ya!

 

Its the way society is going, regrettably most cannot reason/discuss/consider different points of view and are unwilling to change their stance - they know what they know and everything else is wrong. Its the attitude that I am right and you are wrong .. there is no inbetween. Its sad really...

 

At the end of the day I just hope Bioware is not as black and white as responses from ignorant people in the forums and that constructive comments and suggestions are noted. We don't really need to convince the players, just Bioware that there is an issue.

 

Good post!

[sulsakan]

I only skimmed through this thread so maybe someone already brought up this point, but there is another huge problem with expertise...or more accurately, the need to wear one gear while pveing and another while pvping, is that it has a profound detrimental effect to true open world pvp... and the fact that BW even incorporated this gearing system is just one more of many examples that they do not really understand what true open world pvp is.

 

BW's idea of owpvp is isolating all level 50 pvpers on one world and there you go! Open World PVP! LOL TRUE owpvp should actually be called open universe pvp and then maybe the devs would understand it just a little bit better. TRUE owpvp is at its best when it is spontaneous, unplanned...where one minute your just doing some questing, ho-huming along thinking I'll just take it easy tonight and then you run into an overt player or 3, they kill you, you call some friends, you kill them, they call some friends....and 2 hours later your drenching in sweat and just had the funnest pvp in a long time. This was SWG at the beginning and towards the end.

 

The problem with TOR is that because you have to use one set of gear for pve and another for pvp...this sort of spontaneous combustion will never really happen. This whole push to isolate pvp into WZs (Ilium was just one big WZ IMHO) just shows that either BW doesnt understand pvp, or what they really wanted to build was a pve only mmo all along, but knew they had to add pvp if they wanted to be commercially viable, so they kind of added pvp as an almost separate game, with its own terrain, gear, sets of rules, etc. etc....but didnt really understand that if you tie the both together in a seamless fashion then you have a phenomenal game.

 

So the problem is not expertise in it itself, but the differentiation in gear usage. Bottom line, the only real solution is to forget about 2 sets of gear, make all gear the same for period, but just tier it so that folks that put the time and effort and money can get the ones with the better stats. SWG did it with no problem for many years.

 

So you might say...its not fair that someone can get the best gear just pveing and will be as competitive with some you just pvped to get the best gear....then I would say, it doesnt matter because if all they did was pve then they are not going to be very skilled in pvp....so it becomes about skill and not gear...oh my, what a concept!

 

So you might say....what about the peeps that put the time and effort to get the best pvp or pve gear...well I guess theoretically if they ever did implement this sort of change, then those that have the best gear would be able to trade those in for the best of the new gear...no biggie.

 

Anyways, just some things to think about, cheers

[DarthPunitor]

I honestly think you are serious here, other than the expertise the recruit set and champion set is utter garbage. A fresh 50 enters their first war zone with around 13k health, and might as well be swinging a plastic bat for all the more damage they can do. Where as with only 2 pieces of WH and the main hand the rest all battle master I sit at over 17 k on a scound.

 

still gets the job done for raiders wanting to try pvp. nobody wants to work for anything these days.