The end of the arguement. Is SWTOR in decline? Can it be saved?

[Leggomy]

I think WoW was a "perfect storm" in a sense...the "right" game at the right time. I can see this one settling at around 2mill. worldwide. i could be horribly wrong and you absolutely right. I hope this game gets its footing and carries on for a long time. I am very interested to see what BW comes up with.

 

Well also people really like WoW. They retain a lot of subscribers. I know people who have been playing since launch and love it. The game runs on nearly any system from a junk HP off the shelf type to high end. It appeals to casuals and hardcores alike. Its just a really good design and well thought out. Not my cup of tea but have to give credit where credit is due.

[JeramieCrowe]

I have its owned by EA heh. I think you are just kind of throwing around big words. Fact is its owned by EA and when I looked up what private meant on the site you linked it says it means they are a private company and not publically listed. So I dunno guess we have to agree to disagree Im not arguing it with ya heh. Fact is you cant buy Bioware stock even if you wanted to. So speculating is pointless anyways.

 

I know, that's why I said that it could be that BioWare's private stock is up, while EA's is down. We don't know for sure.

 

Here's some more info.

[SecretScientist]

[quote name='Leggomy']Well Bioware is wholly owned by EA so it doesnt have its own stock. EA is like the borg. Before long there will be no Bioware and only EA. Look at Maxis, Westwood Studios, etc etc.[/QUOTE] This. I don't know why so many people believe BioWare is a separate company from EA. BioWare is not a corporate entity in any sense. It is a division of EA. Before that it was part of the VG Holding Group which EA acquired, lock, stock and barrel. EA maintains BioWare as a label, as is frequent in the publishing industry. BioWare has no autonomy from EA. It is EA. All BioWare employees are EA employees.

[JeramieCrowe]

I think WoW was a "perfect storm" in a sense...the "right" game at the right time. I can see this one settling at around 2mill. worldwide. i could be horribly wrong and you absolutely right. I hope this game gets its footing and carries on for a long time. I am very interested to see what BW comes up with.

 

Mmm.. I think more like 5 to 7 million, especially with all the countries they just released in today, and possibly even more in the future.

[Leggomy]

I know, that's why I said that it could be that BioWare's private stock is up, while EA's is down. We don't know for sure.

 

Here's some more info.

 

It says exactly what I said. Its a private company with private stock. That means it doesnt go up or down. Its issues as ownership. EA owns all the stock and therefore owns Bioware. The private stock is not traded and does not go up and down its just who owns the company. Do you really think that Bioware owns its own stock market and trades the shares amongst the employees or something?

[JeramieCrowe]

This.

 

I don't know why so many people believe BioWare is a separate company from EA. BioWare is not a corporate entity in any sense. It is a division of EA. Before that it was part of the VG Holding Group which EA acquired, lock, stock and barrel.

 

EA maintains BioWare as a label, as is frequent in the publishing industry. BioWare has no autonomy from EA. It is EA. All BioWare employees are EA employees.

 

I've been an employee of a corporation that owned subsidiaries, and saw first hand what I'm talking about. The "private" stocks were available to employees to invest in. I have seen subsidiary stock go up while the the owning corporation's stocks went down. Happens all the time.

[LukeStormstout]

If they do not fix bugs that almost break a class it can not be saved. If they continue to not listen to the community and ignore them it can not be saved. An example of this is a bug with the Mercenary/Commando class. Tracer missile/Gravity round applies a heat signature, reducing the armor rating by 4% for 15 seconds. It is not working. No armor reduction debuff is being applied. Several players have filed bug reports and tested this. The developers are ignoring the issue instead of giving solid proof it is working as intended. Have a good day.

[JeramieCrowe]

It says exactly what I said. Its a private company with private stock. That means it doesnt go up or down. Its issues as ownership. EA owns all the stock and therefore owns Bioware. The private stock is not traded and does not go up and down its just who owns the company. Do you really think that Bioware owns its own stock market and trades the shares amongst the employees or something?

 

Refer to my above post. I've seen it firsthand with similar companies I was employed with. And I'm not saying that's definitely the case, I said IT COULD BE...

Edited April 26, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[DieAlteHexe]

Well also people really like WoW. They retain a lot of subscribers. I know people who have been playing since launch and love it. The game runs on nearly any system from a junk HP off the shelf type to high end. It appeals to casuals and hardcores alike. Its just a really good design and well thought out. Not my cup of tea but have to give credit where credit is due.

 

Oh, I'm not putting WoW down although I bailed with the release of BC. Just wasn't working out for me. That's what I meant (as you said here) about "perfect storm", meaning a lot of things coming together at the right time and place. Once people got invested, as with any MMO, they tend to want to stick around and Blizz is pretty good with the "carrot and stick" which is to their credit.

[CosmicKat]

I fit that description. Would not seriously consider paying for an MMO with any other genre - especially one involving the Middle Earth/LoTR/D&D type of setting.

 

Not taking a shot at you but you should seriously re-think this position.

 

Star Wars IS high fantasy.

 

Many of us have been waiting years for a "science fiction" MMO. STOR isn't it, and nobody should ever have expected it to be given that the source material is a thinly veiled homage to decades of mythical fantasy with "Space" in front of it to make it sound somewhat fresh. Star Wars is 95% LotR/DnD with 5% Sci-Fi window dressing.

[Leggomy]

Refer to my above post. I've seen it firsthand with similar companies I was employed with. And I'm not saying that's definitely the case, I said IT COULD BE...

 

Lol whatever you say man.

[DieAlteHexe]

Mmm.. I think more like 5 to 7 million, especially with all the countries they just released in today, and possibly even more in the future.

 

Well, I hope you're right, for our sakes and BW's. The more the better!

[JeramieCrowe]

Not taking a shot at you but you should seriously re-think this position.

 

Star Wars IS high fantasy.

 

Many of us have been waiting years for a "science fiction" MMO. STOR isn't it, and nobody should ever have expected it to be given that the source material is a thinly veiled homage to decades of mythical fantasy with "Space" in front of it to make it sound somewhat fresh. Star Wars is 95% LotR/DnD with 5% Sci-Fi window dressing.

 

But it's not the same. And Star Wars is more "space opera" than space fantasy, although the term works. The point is, it's not Tolkien-like fantasy, which is tired, old, overdone, and moldy.

[MareLooke]

I think WoW was a "perfect storm" in a sense...the "right" game at the right time. I can see this one settling at around 2mill. worldwide. i could be horribly wrong and you absolutely right. I hope this game gets its footing and carries on for a long time. I am very interested to see what BW comes up with.

 

Frankly the game is just too similar to WoW. It's not that it's bad or better or worse than WoW. It's just that there are just too many out there that are the same.

 

For me once I hit 50 and ran out of stuff to do we started raiding and we started hitting the bugs, eventually people just started quitting and when our Main Tank threw in the towel the guild just...died. It wasn't disbanded, people didn't leave it just...faded away. People just stopped logging in one by one. Some might have gone back to whatever they played before that, some might still be looking for a killer-MMO that brings actual change, without being TOO different from the tried and true EverQuest formula popularised by WoW. Personally I was planning on sitting it out until 1.2 and then trying to kick things off again, but tbh, I don't really have much motivation to do so.

 

Take away SWToR's story and you have another WoW clone, and not necessarily one that is that good either. The story is what made this game, what sucked me and so many others in, and then we got to that final confrontation and then...then what? Flashpoints? Operations? Been there, done that. PvP? Don't care. So what then? Crafting? Hah! Trading? I thought not... Exploring? Exploring what, exactly?

 

Maybe 1.2 fixed all that. But I, and many many others if the dead-ness of my server last few times I logged on is an indication, have moved on. The game was released too early with too little to keep people engaged and with vital parts missing.

 

Now I have no (active) guild anymore so the chances of me starting to play again for any amount of time are very slim and really, I think this is the case for many players that have seen their share of MMOs prior to landing here.

 

EA killed this game by releasing too early and by having the hubris of thinking they could beat Blizzard's decade old experience in keeping people engaged just by throwing more money at it. Any game that wants a serious chance at being the "next best thing in MMOs" is going to have to take risks and find a new take on MMOs, one that resounds with the masses of players. Trying to copy something and add a bell or whistle here or there is not cutting it, as Rift found out, as Age of Conan found out, as SWToR found out.

 

None of these games failed per-se but none of them are different enough from each other to keep people engaged in the long run.

[DieAlteHexe]

...None of these games failed per-se but none of them are different enough from each other to keep people engaged in the long run.

 

If they didn't fail, and there are enough folk playing them for the companies to carry on developing content and expansions...what matter that they don't have "x" amount of subscribers? It doesn't.

 

I understand that SWTOR didn't work out for you but there are a lot of folk playing this game, and the others you listed who are perfectly content. The number of folk playing MMOs worldwide is HUGE and there are many to choose from.

[JeramieCrowe]

Lol whatever you say man.

 

Didn't mean to start an argument. Either way, no one knows for sure. That was my point.

Edited April 26, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[SecretScientist]

I've been an employee of a corporation that owned subsidiaries, and saw first hand what I'm talking about. The "private" stocks were available to employees to invest in. I have seen subsidiary stock go up while the the owning corporation's stocks went down. Happens all the time.

 

No.

 

BioWare is not a subsidiary. It is a division. BioWare has no stock. All stock, stock options, RSUs were cashed upon execution of the acquisition Agreement.

 

Whatever previous experience you think you have is not relevant here. The google page you reference lists BioWare stock as private as a placeholder. The CEO listed, Ray Muzyk, is CEO in title only. He is Senior Vice President and General Manager of the BioWare Label at EA. Legally, it is a division and a label.

 

BioWare has no stock.

[Dolcia]

It does, though. I dabble a bit in the markets, and if I were EA, I would leave BioWare stock independent and private, especially given the dip in EA's stock. Leaving BioWare's stock alone would save them.

 

I admit (and I'm not even part of the doomsday conspiracy theorist fan club here) that when EA got their claws into Maxis they ruined The Sims for me. Not so much with The Sims 2, but big time with The Sims 3.

[CosmicKat]

I think WoW was a "perfect storm" in a sense...the "right" game at the right time. I can see this one settling at around 2mill. worldwide. i could be horribly wrong and you absolutely right. I hope this game gets its footing and carries on for a long time. I am very interested to see what BW comes up with.

 

WoW was a focus group game, like all Blizzard products. They make games for non-gamers. They copy existing successes and dumb them down for the mass market. That's their thing and they are very good at it. WoW was an abberation that won't ever happen again, unless of course some company makes a new innovative game concept that is hugely successful and Blizzard can once again copy that and make it hugely successful +1.

[JeramieCrowe]

No.

 

BioWare is not a subsidiary. It is a division. BioWare has no stock. All stock, stock options, RSUs were cashed upon execution of the acquisition Agreement.

 

Whatever previous experience you think you have is not relevant here. The google page you reference lists BioWare stock as private as a placeholder. The CEO listed, Ray Muzyk, is CEO in title only. He is Senior Vice President and General Manager of the BioWare Label at EA. Legally, it is a division and a label.

 

BioWare has no stock.

 

Have any links that provide this information?

[DieAlteHexe]

I admit (and I'm not even part of the doomsday conspiracy theorist fan club here) that when EA got their claws into Maxis they ruined The Sims for me. Not so much with The Sims 2, but big time with The Sims 3.

 

Right behind you there. I was not a happy camper about that and walked away from years of playing it.

[DieAlteHexe]

WoW was a focus group game, like all Blizzard products. They make games for non-gamers. They copy existing successes and dumb them down for the mass market. That's their thing and they are very good at it. WoW was an abberation that won't ever happen again, unless of course some company makes a new innovative game concept that is hugely successful and Blizzard can once again copy that and make it hugely successful +1.

 

An interesting albeit cynical take on it. But eh...no matter to me. I'm not a particular Blizzard fan. Far more appreciative of BW games across the years. WoW was something I played cos my husband was a Warcraft player and we like to play stuff together. I never really got into the game. There were some fun moments and I liked some of the humour but it wasn't, in the end, enough to keep me occupied at BC was the end for me.

[Sanxxx]

Quote: Originally Posted by Goretzu

The question is how much population is Bioware aiming at.

500k.

 

The more the merrier, of course, but 500k is what they have to maintain.

 

500k is barely break even , they need 1m+ to make a profit that is 'nothing to write home about'

[apololisst]

no its not flamming and whining makes the game look like it though

i play the game it feels good the story makes you interested i like the talents and i like the community in the game

people expect mmos like wow but they dont understand that wow was ****y until recent and they have a 7+ game with huge content

swtor is a good game the only thing that makes it bad is the AH and some bugs but all can fixed

i currenlty looking forward for the 1st expac

[DieAlteHexe]

500k is barely break even , they need 1m+ to make a profit that is 'nothing to write home about'

 

SWTOR? Pretty sure it was in this thread someone pointed to where BW was after 500k and anything above that was gravy.

 

Edit: I'm partially correct:

 

From this link:

 

Q: You've previously said you need about a half million subscribers to be profitable, is that still the case?

A: At 500,000 subscribers, we'd break even. At a million, we'd be making a profit but nothing worth writing home about. As it scales up from there, we're talking about a nice profit. At this point with the successful launch, we can take the worst case scenarios off the table.

 

Forgot this bit: I don't think having a million subs. is going to be an issue. I don't think SWTOR will ever see anything like WoW numbers but then it doesn't need to. Many MMOs are being happily played that never even came near WoW numbers.

Edited April 26, 2012 by DieAlteHexe