The end of the arguement. Is SWTOR in decline? Can it be saved?

[islander]

Are you aware that the human eye can't physically distinguish beyond 30 fps?

 

A movie runs at 24fps.

 

Don't let facts get in the way of a good whine.

[JeramieCrowe]

Something interesting to think about and discuss...

 

The first GW2 public beta begins tomorrow afternoon and ends Sunday at midnight. How much do you wanna wager that the team at BioWare will be closely monitoring the effect this will have on the game's playing population?

 

Granted, any new shiny thing will be a draw, but if there's a considerable portion of the SWTOR base swinging over for just a weekend, it could be indicative of a possible substantial migration come GW2's official launch.

 

We know that GW2 has pre-sold around 6 million copies already. That's huge.

 

Whether or not SWTOR is in decline, will the launch of new games--like GW2--have a detrimental impact?

 

With over 25 million total MMOers? Not likely.

[JeramieCrowe]

Well, in this case I just don't believe you, the screen froze briefly for everyone each time an objective changed hands. The engine cannot cope within 100+ people on screen at once, there were so many complaints about Ilum performance, not so many now of course

 

So to keep saying it was ok for me is just head in the sand in the face of everyone else

 

How does that, in any way, relate to fps? A brief pause happening to everyone every now and then is NOT fps... and happens in every game I've ever played. People are seriously whining about that?!

[Dezzi]

Are you aware that the human eye can't physically distinguish beyond 30 fps?

 

A movie runs at 24fps.

 

There's some serious debate about that.

 

Movies run at low frames because televisions blur frames together to create the appearance of smooth frame rates. Computers don't have this luxury, which play frames at higher rates and don't blend them together so you end up noticing changes much more easily.

[DieAlteHexe]

Don't get me wrong, I myself would not recommend Rift to anyone but it makes a really good first timers online game, was about to put MMO . It tells how to make your class, where to put your talents in and in fact the game itself has been so dumbed down that I think you get healed by mobs now instead of taking damage

 

Eh, I had a lot of fun with it. It certainly isn't a difficult game but then I don't play games with a mind to them being difficult. I play them to relax and goof around. So, it worked out well for me.

[DieAlteHexe]

Something interesting to think about and discuss...

 

The first GW2 public beta begins tomorrow afternoon and ends Sunday at midnight. How much do you wanna wager that the team at BioWare will be closely monitoring the effect this will have on the game's playing population?

 

Granted, any new shiny thing will be a draw, but if there's a considerable portion of the SWTOR base swinging over for just a weekend, it could be indicative of a possible substantial migration come GW2's official launch.

 

We know that GW2 has pre-sold around 6 million copies already. That's huge.

 

Whether or not SWTOR is in decline, will the launch of new games--like GW2--have a detrimental impact?

 

Of course they will, as will every other MMO company out there. That's kind of an obvious one. Heh.

 

I would say that MOST of the folk who are salivating over GW2 have probably already thrown up their hands and left SWTOR. I am sure it will have an impact...churn...always...happens. Now, what remains to be seen is if GW2 has the HOLDING power that is expected. Pre-orders...oh boy, if that many people pre-ordered there is gonna be a you-know-what storm. Guaranteed that there will be a large number of folk who got sucked up into the hype and will do as happens with every MMO...freak out when the hype hits reality.

 

So, TLDR: Same ol', same ol'.

[Skidrowbro]

Eh, I had a lot of fun with it. It certainly isn't a difficult game but then I don't play games with a mind to them being difficult. I play them to relax and goof around. So, it worked out well for me.

 

I had fun with it too. I was in beta testing, headstart and played up until a month ago. Too many nerfs for me. I personally didn't like the direction they took with making it a game for noobs, not to be taken as an insult. I play MMO's for the challenge and the grouping apect of having to overcome odds with knowing the strategies of the fights.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Skidrowbro

[Trenter]

We know that GW2 has pre-sold around 6 million copies already. That's huge.

 

Just our of curiosity, do you have a source for this? Not that I don't believe you, but I haven't seen it. 6 million copies pre-sold? That is a loooot of boxes.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Trenter

[JeramieCrowe]

Just our of curiosity, do you have a source for this? Not that I don't believe you, but I haven't seen it. 6 million copies pre-sold? That is a loooot of boxes.

 

I think he's mixing up GW's boxes and expansions numbers with GW2...

[DieAlteHexe]

I had fun with it too. I was in beta testing, headstart and played up until a month ago. Too many nerfs for me. I personally didn't like the direction they took with making it a game for noobs, not to be taken as an insult. I play MMO's for the challenge and the grouping apect of having to overcome odds with knowing the strategies of the fights.

 

I used to but I've got plenty of challenges in RL and like to game to relax. Should've seen me UO/EQ days but when I look back, I realise that I was just adding more striving toward a goal or overcoming obstacles. Not needed, have plenty. Much prefer to goof around with friends and family.

 

ETA: And, I rather like "noobs" (although I prefer "newbs"). They tend to be more fun, less intense and not all wrapped up in, well, whose is bigger.

Edited April 26, 2012 by DieAlteHexe

[Andryah]

There's some serious debate about that.

 

Movies run at low frames because televisions blur frames together to create the appearance of smooth frame rates. Computers don't have this luxury, which play frames at higher rates and don't blend them together so you end up noticing changes much more easily.

 

The actual challenge is overcoming what is called temporal aliasing, which relates to the speed at which an object is moving across the screen. It's much more percepable on digitally created images, such as rendered content in video games. Movies control this because they do not typically shoot scenes where there are rapid movement of objects, and the 24fps frame speed is sufficient for movies. Movies also will tend to blur fast image movement anyway since imaging is analog in movies. Digital movie imagae capture uses complicated software algorithyms to mimic analog image capture to prevent this.

 

Reference: http://xcorr.net/2011/11/20/whats-the-maximal-frame-rate-humans-can-perceive/

 

Different people tend to have different sensitivity levels to temporal aliasing. Most people barely notice it at frame rates above 30fps. Some people however are hypersensitive to it and will complain about it even above frame rates of 30, but these are a minority of image viewers.

 

All that said, only about 1 in 1000 people actually perceive temporal aliasing in frame speeds >30. So for all practical purposes, 30 frames per second in rendered game content is sufficient for humans to realize jitter free visuals.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Andryah

[Skidrowbro]

I used to but I've got plenty of challenges in RL and like to game to relax. Should've seen me UO/EQ days but when I look back, I realise that I was just adding more striving toward a goal or overcoming obstacles. Not needed, have plenty. Much prefer to goof around with friends and family.

 

All games should be fun and players should be allowed to do what they want but when it comes time for the big boys to play please don't be one of those players that say, "hey I want to do that too so can you bring it down to my level?"

[Trenter]

I think he's mixing up GW's boxes and expansions numbers with GW2...

 

That's what I think too, but we'll see what he comes up with. I'm perfectly fine with being proven wrong here.

[islander]

Just our of curiosity, do you have a source for this? Not that I don't believe you, but I haven't seen it. 6 million copies pre-sold? That is a loooot of boxes.

 

Thats positively false.

 

I just checked the pre-order charting website. According to vgchartz, GW2 hasn't even sold 100k pre-orders.

Can't verify with 100% certainty, but people were using this as a meter for TOR pre-sales, and it was 'reasonably' accurate.

 

Also of note: D3 is at about 660k now pre-order (keep in mind all the 12 month wow players got it for free - obviously those aren't paid pre-orders and I don't believe are counted in this)

Edited April 26, 2012 by islander

[Dezzi]

Just our of curiosity, do you have a source for this? Not that I don't believe you, but I haven't seen it. 6 million copies pre-sold? That is a loooot of boxes.

 

My apologies. The figure is credited to GW. I saw this statement before in another thread (may have been a previous version of this thread) and they linked their source. Didn't go to the source, stupidly.

 

Thanks for asking and forcing me to look.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Dezzi

[DieAlteHexe]

All games should be fun and players should be allowed to do what they want but when it comes time for the big boys to play please don't be one of those players that say, "hey I want to do that too so can you bring it down to my level?"

 

Well now, that was fairly condescending. "Big boys"? LOL!

 

As for what kind of player I am...not your concern. My money is just as good as yours and if I have an opinion that runs counter to those "big boys", I'll be sharing it.

 

"Big boys" Heee!

[Trenter]

My apologies. The figure is credited to GW. I saw this statement before here in another thread (may have been a previous version of this thread) and they linked their source. Didn't go to the source, stupidly.

 

Thanks for asking and forcing me to look.

 

Ah, no worries I just thought it seemed like a ridiculous amount of boxes sold already!

[JeramieCrowe]

Thats positively false.

 

I just checked the pre-order charting website. According to vgchartz, GW2 hasn't even sold 100k pre-orders.

Can't verify with 100% certainty, but people were using this as a meter for TOR pre-sales, and it was 'reasonably' accurate.

 

Also of note: D3 is at about 660k now pre-order (keep in mind all the 12 month wow players got it for free - obviously those aren't paid pre-orders and I don't believe are counted in this)

 

Yeah... I bet those drop now that D3 is launching with zero PvP...

[Dezzi]

Ah, no worries I just thought it seemed like a ridiculous amount of boxes sold already!

 

To be honest, I did too, which should have prompted me to check it out. Lesson learned.

[DieAlteHexe]

The actual challenge is overcoming what is called temporal aliasing, which relates to the speed at which an object is moving across the screen. It's much more percepable on digitally created images, such as rendered content in video games. Movies control this because they do not typically shoot scenes where there are rapid movement of objects, and the 24fps frame speed is sufficient for movies. Movies also will tend to blur fast image movement anyway since imaging is analog in movies. Digital movie imagae capture uses complicated software algorithyms to mimic analog image capture to prevent this.

 

Reference: http://xcorr.net/2011/11/20/whats-the-maximal-frame-rate-humans-can-perceive/

 

Different people tend to have different sensitivity levels to temporal aliasing. Most people barely notice it at frame rates above 30fps. Some people however are hypersensitive to it and will complain about it even above frame rates of 30, but these are a minority of image viewers.

 

All that said, only about 1 in 1000 people actually perceive temporal aliasing in frame speeds >30. So for all practical purposes, 30 frames per second in rendered game content is sufficient for humans to realize jitter free visuals.

 

Interesting post, thank you. I learned something new from it and that's a good thing.

[Skidrowbro]

Well now, that was fairly condescending. "Big boys"? LOL!

 

As for what kind of player I am...not your concern. My money is just as good as yours and if I have an opinion that runs counter to those "big boys", I'll be sharing it.

 

"Big boys" Heee!

 

Oh so you are one of those that must have raid gear but don't plan on raiding huh?

 

Also we are very much off topic of this thread. My answer to the threads question is "No" & "It does not need saving"

Edited April 26, 2012 by Skidrowbro

[Sanxxx]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dezzi

Something interesting to think about and discuss...

 

The first GW2 public beta begins tomorrow afternoon and ends Sunday at midnight. How much do you wanna wager that the team at BioWare will be closely monitoring the effect this will have on the game's playing population?

 

Granted, any new shiny thing will be a draw, but if there's a considerable portion of the SWTOR base swinging over for just a weekend, it could be indicative of a possible substantial migration come GW2's official launch.

 

We know that GW2 has pre-sold around 6 million copies already. That's huge.

 

Whether or not SWTOR is in decline, will the launch of new games--like GW2--have a detrimental impact?

With over 25 million total MMOers? Not likely.

 

Of course it will given that the target market is USA/EU and the majority of mmo players are in Asia, expect the weekend load to decrease significantly.

[JeramieCrowe]

Of course it will given that the target market is USA/EU and the majority of mmo players are in Asia, expect the weekend load to decrease significantly.

 

I bet TOR is about to open in Asia...

[Andryah]

If you were in ILUM with 50 other people on TS all suffering sub 10 FPS how is that not the game's fault ?

 

Bioware admitted that the poor performance in Illum was largely due to zone design factors. Which is why it is effectively been decommissioned with patch 1.2. They said they were going to look at redesigning it.

 

Now, you can agrue about why Illum zone design was so poor, but the fact is there ARE right ways and wrong ways to design rendered content for any graphics engine. All game engines have specific strengths and weakness, and work better/worse in different environments of play. There is a reason that MMO companies steer clear of game engines designed for FPS games, AND vice versa. They are completely different environments with different requirements, which is why it's silly for people to compare their computers performance between an FPS and an MMO.

 

The pivotal element in game design is to take advantage of the engines characteristics and steer clear of it's weaknesses and you get good performance for the average player profile. Someone at Bioware failed in this on Illum. Most of the other performance issues early in game release have in fact been corrected by Bioware now, and they did so in a number of different ways (no silver bullet, different things needed to be tweaked for different performance isues), which is pretty normal for any MMO company launching into the market on a new game engine.

[Alkiii]

Why is it that a lot of people think that limiting themselves to one game is their only option?

 

I'm very excited about GW2 and I really don't care about the impact that game will have on SWTOR. I love SWTOR and have an absolute blast playing it. That doesn't mean I can't play both. Especially if one of them is Free-to-play! My excitement for GW2 surely doesn't have me coming to these forums bashing SWTOR because a new shiny is coming. No, it means that as a gamer I will have even more options in the near future.

 

These are exciting times ladies and gentlemen. The last thing we need is to have the gamer nation turn gaming into a Ford vs. Chevy argument. Play the games and have fun.

 

I for one, am very excited about the MMO gaming future. With so many options, it's going to be hard to play them all!