The Pros and Cons of a Marauder

[Serrowherrow]

Marauders have NO cons.

 

Sorcerors are so OP, they can heal themselves, have a ton of utility, do good DPS, and are all-around good with their group buffs and what they bring to composition.

 

Plus they're ranged, so why bother bringing anything else except a few tanks?

 

Sorcs have NO cons.

 

 

(P.S Am I doing it right yet? I'm not sure if I'm with the 'IN' crowd on the swtor-pvp-whine club.)

[blackadda]

Uhm what? I have played a Watchmen Sentinel since launch and we do NOT have a snare with no cooldown.

 

snares/slows are terms used interchangably by many people...

neither of these 50% snares/slows have a cooldown OR rage cost and are available to every sent/marauder

http://www.torhead.com/ability/5GMTnHY/crippling-slash

http://www.torhead.com/ability/9V1Xgd/leg-slash

 

The big thing maras and sents have (actually all warriors/knights)over other dps classes is virtually ZERO resource management, combined with very effective damage shields which put them at an advantage over every other class *except* sniper/gunslinger.

 

That being said they were plenty effective pre 1.2 and I also see a lot of the same arguments being made that people tried to use to defend Operative melee pre the multiple nerfs they received.

 

"If you fight me solo, youll lose, so L2P and bring a team" isnt an argument which favors the status quo...

 

many many operatives used the same arguments when they were 1 combo hitting for 15k-20k dmg out of stealth during a 3 second knockdown and people said they had to big of an advantage.

 

Id guess marauders will see some tweaks to the defensive cooldowns in the near future OR other classes may receive some buffs...survivability is what sets them apart right now from other DPS classes

 

Right now its simply a case of 1.2 nerfing every other class by 10-15% and buffing 3 classes by 5-10% which has created a situation where the 3 classes that received buffs now outperform the ones that received multiple nerfs.

 

Expect another patch soon to rectify the imbalance..and another after that

Edited May 1, 2012 by blackadda

[Jaidan]

i like how the op points out that maras/sents aren't good for playing the objectives in warzones.

 

i also like how most people gloss over this and just focus on how quickly they die to maras/sents.

 

just goes to show how many people focus on the wrong things in pvp.

 

thank you, op, for showing me that there are still at least a few decent pvp'rs with the right mindset out there.

[islander]

Marauders have NO cons.

 

False.

 

For one, it's an extremely high skill cap to actually be great. There are a lot of maras out there who are average. Playing my healer after weeks as an anni mara was like easy mode after one night. I have literally two dozen keybinds on my mara that are all actively used within a warzone and/or PvE. We have a slow, that's really the only cc of any value we have. AOE mezz would be more useful if teammates werent terrible at breaking it all the time.

 

Second, we have no real CC compared to other classes. No stun we can DPS through. We have a single mez in its place, and a force choke that is only useful for rage generation and a cast interrupt.

 

PS: You CAN get out of the third hit of ravage against MOST maras. Only carnage spec roots you for it.

 

Third, we're melee only. If you're ranged, and can't kill - or at least come close to killing - the typical mara, you're simply bad at kiting. Truth is in my warzones seldom is a mara the top DPS. Sometimes rage specs are because that's the true "AOE" spec for the class, then again thats of only situational value.

 

Finally, Although Annihilation spec is an excellent solo class, most PvP is NOT solo, and like every other MMO out there, the game is NOT balanced on individual PvP. I'm an above average (read, not terrible) soloist, and a good assassin or operative can give me fits. Especially if the operative has all of his CDs. Can't DPS someone if you can't move. Remember that when fighting a mara.

Edited May 1, 2012 by islander

[crrypto]

...my Sentinel feels like god mode.

 

Sounds about right. lol

[kickinhead]

Sorcerors are so OP, they can heal themselves, have a ton of utility, do good DPS, and are all-around good with their group buffs and what they bring to composition.

 

Plus they're ranged, so why bother bringing anything else except a few tanks?

 

Sorcs have NO cons.

 

 

(P.S Am I doing it right yet? I'm not sure if I'm with the 'IN' crowd on the swtor-pvp-whine club.)

 

DPS/Support-Sages

1) Less Burst-DMG than other Ranged classes

2) Glass-Cannons

3) Interrupting will take out a lot of the DPS

4) No good Cooldowns, especially no defensive ones

5) Healing in a DPS-spec isn't very effective and will give you Mana-probs very soon

6) Bubble is the only skill in the game that gets worse if you have more Sages

 

Heal-Sages

1) Even easier to kill than the DPS-specs

2) Not really great CC/Stuns compared to the DPS-spec

3) Almost no burstheals in under 1 Sec

4) Mana-management costs health, which makes them very vulnerable

5) No free Heal like Comm

 

Marauders:

Pro's:

- high burst-DMG

- Best CD's in the game

- high sustained and AoE DMG in some specs

- ridiculously OP leaps for Huttball

- Best Class for 1v1 - almost unbeatable

- Nice skills for the team like Transendence and heal in watchman-spec

 

Con's:

- Melee.... But they have leaps, so it's okay

- cannot remove conds/slows/CC easily, but for that, you have support

- Focus-Spec can't really spike consistenly and is realiant on opponents balling ---> therefore the worst spec and the only one with deficits

[islander]

LOL at counting on leaps for everything. 12-15 second CD for one.

 

Any mara who starts a fight with a leap is a baddie just waiting to be knocked back, rooted, or stunned.

 

In huttball, leaps are near worthless. Endless LOS issues as far as the game's concerned. I've experience imaginary LOS issues in Novare as well.

 

Sustained AOE is only in rage spec, and most people don't play it because it's weak in overall utility. Carnage actually gives you the highest single target bust DPS, but it's within a 6 second window every 15 seconds. The other 9 seconds, pretty standard damage.

 

I think the problem with most of these QQers is they see all these skills with marauders/sentinels, and assume everyone has everything they see. Yeah, if I had all the goodness of carnage and rage, as an anni - I'd need a nerf. Badly.

Edited May 1, 2012 by islander

[Faat]

LOL

 

In huttball, leaps are near worthless.

 

 

Stopped reading there. Elll Ohhh Elll

[polopopoo]

For one, it's an extremely high skill cap to actually be great. I have literally two dozen keybinds on my mara that are all actively used within a warzone and/or PvE.

You have the same amount of keybinds for a dps rotation as everyone else. The difference is, all those extra ones, are abilities used to counter other classes who don't get a bunch of extra toys to play with. Give an op or a bh, the pleathera of buffs, def cooldowns and interupts and they will have just as many keybinds as you do.

 

Second, we have no real CC compared to other classes. No stun we can DPS through. We have a single mez in its place, and a force choke that is only useful for rage generation and a cast interrupt.

Mercs have 1 stun and 1 mez(single target) that is a 2 sec cast. You have an aoe mez with no cast. Wanna trade? Trick with choke, use it after you apply your bleeds so they wont cleanse them or pop a def CD. Bam tons of damage during your stun.

 

PS: You CAN get out of the third hit of ravage against MOST maras. Only carnage spec roots you for it.

Normal dps rotation is the strongest in the game, but why do mara's think this talent is reasonable. Strong dps classes don't need the strongest burst as well.

Third, we're melee only. If you're ranged, and can't kill - or at least come close to killing - the typical mara, you're simply bad at kiting. Truth is in my warzones seldom is a mara the top DPS. Sometimes rage specs are because that's the true "AOE" spec for the class, then again thats of only situational value.

Most ranged classes lack any kind of kiting ability. If you mention knockbacks. A talented leaper will get 3 off for every KB, and should position themselves to not get KB. Thats where skill comes in, not keybinds.

 

Mara's dps is not op. Just like dps tankassins, DPS classes shouldn't get high damage, utility and survivability.

[islander]

Stopped reading there. Elll Ohhh Elll

 

Ell Ohh Ell all you like.

 

I find leap to be much more useful on offense (jumping ahead to idiots who let you) then defense where you just get knocked right back off by endless array of knockbacks from other classes, and SI's force run infiinitely more valuable.

 

Polo:

1) no, my sorc in DPS mode has half the keybinds required. It's easy mode, almost as easy as arcane mages in WoW. Although I tend to play him more as a healer - same thing. Easy mode compared to a Mara.

 

2) People think Ravager is reasonable because guess what? BIoware said it was underpowered pre 1.2 and buffed it accordingly, if talented for it. Simple in this case. Carnage has the strongest burst, it's situational and within a window.

 

3) I'd gladly trade you the AOE mezz for the stun. My AOE mezzes are largely wasted anyway by people who just keep on attacking the mezzed targets un-necessarily anyway. I've had some epic moments in huttball with AOE mezz/choke but they are rare, and require most of my team not being there to screw it up. That's a solid idea on the choke, but I prefer to use it as an emergency interrupt as I target healers every warzone, not so much objectives themselves.

 

Casters can purge bleeds all they want - I'm reapplying them every 6-10 seconds anyway - and that's if my annihilate/vicious slash isn't prematurely finishing it -, and I'm interrupting any and all attempts at healing 80% of the time.

 

Hearing any complaints from a Bounty Hunter will fall on deaf ears here. A good DPS BH is essentially a ranged version of a Marauder from a PvP perspective. All the damage, but from distance and as such can put up higher warzone numebrs. The Anni marauder may have better utility, though. I havent levled a BH yet, I just know powertech DPS seems to rake in the damage in my 50's.

 

The only thing I'd suggest Maras could probably stand to get nerfed is the CD on cloak of pain. 30 seconds uptime every 60 is, factoring in everything else, makes us defensively OP. I'd suggest dropping the max uptime to 15 seconds, rather then increasing the CD on it.

Edited May 1, 2012 by islander

[kickinhead]

LOL at counting on leaps for everything. 12-15 second CD for one.

 

Any mara who starts a fight with a leap is a baddie just waiting to be knocked back, rooted, or stunned.

 

In huttball, leaps are near worthless. Endless LOS issues as far as the game's concerned. I've experience imaginary LOS issues in Novare as well.

 

Sustained AOE is only in rage spec, and most people don't play it because it's weak in overall utility. Carnage actually gives you the highest single target bust DPS, but it's within a 6 second window every 15 seconds. The other 9 seconds, pretty standard damage.

 

I think the problem with most of these QQers is they see all these skills with marauders/sentinels, and assume everyone has everything they see. Yeah, if I had all the goodness of carnage and rage, as an anni - I'd need a nerf. Badly.

 

In GW, where you could only pack 8 skills for one spec, Melee used to fill one of those 8 slots with a leap that had tripple the recast of the leaps in this game and didn't deal any DMG, nor did it interrupt/root or anything - it's soooo easy for most melees in this game to close distances thanks to leaps, self-remove of conds etc. even in a bad PuG-group, where nobody supports them.

Also, No1 said you have to use the leap as your first attack, it's mostly superb because you can 1-2-3-spike much easier if you have a leap every second spike.

 

And yes, the AoE is only in rage-spec, as I noted in my post above and yes, it's the worst spec for pvp, as noted in my post above.

 

Carnage/Combat has by far the best spike-possibilities and can easily spike every 5-7 seconds:

 

- Leap+rooting Master-Strike

- Crit Bladestorm/Crippling Throw while running towards the target, then Precision slash than slash/blade rush

- Crit Bladestorm/Crippling Throw while running towards the target, then Zen+Bladerush+Slash-spamming

 

Or you can also take out a healer while the others are spiking sth down with Stasis/Interrupts...

 

I prefer this spec heavily over the others, even though watchman is nice as well, just because the combat-spec is by far the most reliable in a 1-2-3-spike, which is atm the best way to kill sth.

Edited May 1, 2012 by kickinhead

[Bluetickone]

Interesting to see how little attention this post gets, as opposed to the 1000's of "nurf marauders naow lulz" posts out there.

 

Here is a post giving good information on why a nerf isn't necessary, but it is ignored by those suffering pack mentality completely. Why? Because it is a objective post.

 

I fear for the future of humanity.

 

A good post? its laugable. He didnt even mention an uncleansable healing debuff...theres are reason its ignored: its propaganda without any connection to reality.

[Veeius]

Interesting to see how little attention this post gets, as opposed to the 1000's of "nurf marauders naow lulz" posts out there.

 

Here is a post giving good information on why a nerf isn't necessary, but it is ignored by those suffering pack mentality completely. Why? Because it is a objective post.

 

I fear for the future of humanity.

 

 

.....EVERY single "con" applies to juggs/guardians, every last one. And yet jugg/guard bust is lower, sustained is lower, AND defensive cds are no where near as good. I have a jugg and I have a sent, and the sent is better at every single aspect this game offers except MAIN tanking. It's even better as an emergency tank (by far) than a guardian.

 

I have very little pity on maras/sents, and I run a sent.

[HurricaneXXIV]

Who care's about defensive CD's. Ask a healer who takes more spikey damage in a game, a jug/guardian or a mara/sent.

 

They have CD's because they are super squishy. If you also lose track to someone in the time it takes to count to 4 you have serious issues.

[Jarfunkz]

With everyone calling marauders the new overpowered class and calling them the best at everything in PVP, it seems like a good chance to explain some of the strengths and weaknesses of the class as a whole. If only to educate the masses of people asking for nerfs to a class with very powerful strengths, and very glaring weaknesses. The most important thing to know is that this game is currently balanced around Objective Based Group PVP.

 

 

I'll start with the Pros to being a marauder without much detail given as I am sure with all the hate Marauders are getting most will agree with them.

 

1. Marauders put out almost unparallelled damage to non-tank classes. If a marauder is able to stay in melee combat with a squishy target they can put out incredibly high damage. This is as it should be considering marauders have 0 initial burst, and are required to be in constant melee combat(In a game where nearly every ranged class has a knock+root on a ~20 CD on top of multiple other forms of CC) to achieve top damage.

 

2. Have the best defensive tool set of any dps class when it comes to temporarily avoiding being focus fired. It is nearly impossible to kill a marauder quickly with all his defensive CDs up and a healer behind him. This is as it should be considering Marauders have purely backloaded damage and require to be in the middle of the enemy team to do anything. After their short defensive CDs end they die just as quickly as a dps operative.

 

3. Have arguably the best tool set to chain interrupt casters. If a marauder spends their GCDs on interrupting casts instead of damage it is nearly impossible to cast anything. Most melee classes can actually achieve nearly the same amount of interrupts as marauders can. Take for instance Marauders having 4 potential ways to interrupt compared to say an Powertechs potential of 5.

 

4. Have the only real group buff in the game between bloodthirst/predation. +15% damage/healing or +50% move speed can often pull out wins in group settings. Unfortunately they can only be used at the beginning of the fight by using a 3 minute CD.

 

 

 

Now here come the Cons to the marauder class with some details added for people that don't play Marauders.

 

1. Very weak to being kited as well as soft CC such as roots and knockbacks. Marauders(and Juggernauts) are the only class that requires to be in melee combat to generate their "energy" as well as to do any kind of damage. With only 2 gap closers on a 12s CD and 45s CD it is very possible to kept out of melee range for extended periods of times. It is a nightmare for a marauder to attack groups of ranged classes that chain aoe knockback+roots. It is not unheard of to spend 30+ seconds being chain KB+rooted+mezzed as a marauder vs groups of ranged and not even be able to do ANY damage. No other class can be shutdown as completely as maras with coordinated soft and hard CC due to being a pure melee class with 0 energy regen outside of melee. Roots not being affected by resolve is also a huge issue maras have to deal with as it is effectively a hard CC for maras. So you basically have a class that can be 100% shutdown(damage and energy regen) by a CC(roots) that is not affected by resolve in any way with no defense against it.

 

2. Very low survivability outside of defensive CDs. Marauders without defensive CDs up drop faster than just about any other class especially since they are in the middle of the enemy team. It is very possible to be hit with a stun at 100% hp with no defenses up and die in under 4 seconds to 2 burst dps. If your CC breaker is up you can avoid this, but then you run the risk of being stunned at <20% and not being able to pop Undying Rage. Much like the current Ravage/Undying Rage complaints on the forums against marauders you can't avoid both. Suffice to say a marauder without any defensive CDs is a very dead marauder. So removing the defences from a pure melee dps class with purely backloaded damage would destroy the class.

 

3. Nearly no group utility outside of an on demand predation/bloodthirst every 3 minutes. In an objective based game this is a huge weakness, and a reason you will never see 4+ marauders on any rated WZ team. This weakness affects Huttball the worst, but also carries over to general group PVP. they have no Pull to kill enemy ball carriers. they have no Knock back to knock them off ledges. They aren't tanky enough to carry the ball(Their defenses are very temporary). They again are VERY susceptible to any kind of soft CC such as roots and knock backs. Its not uncommon to be unable to stop a node from being captured simply due to being rooted/slowed for 10+ seconds >4m away from the node(they have to chase down ranged targets). They have to deal with the full extent of tanking stats of tanks, and do miserably low damage as a result to most ball carriers. They have no guard/taunt like other melee to protect healers, and in a game so centered around guarded healers that's a big one. Pull/gaurd/taunt/knockback are THE most important abilities in this game as they are the only way to either kill or save key targets such as healers/ball carriers on organized teams and marauders don't have these abilities.

 

4. Are hard countered by Snipers in Group PVP to an almost impossible degree. I could list the many reasons why, but suffice to say snipers + healers absolutely destroy teams of marauders with almost no effort. Marauders also lack the means to even pressure an Operative healer. Maras also lose 1v1 to Snipers/Operatives/Tankassins. So marauders barely win more then 50% of their 1v1 battles, and have a very hard counter in the form of snipers in group PVP.

 

5. Very weak at killing tanks in PVP. This might not seem like a huge deal, but marauders have to deal with the full extent of a tanks defenses. Marauders take forever to kill any kind of tank in PVP. This is very important as to take a node or door you have to generally kill the tanks guarding it quickly before reinforcements come. Marauders are simply not a class that is capably of doing this. Marauders are also very weak at killing enemy ball carriers in huttball due to their weak damage against tanky targets as well as their very limited ability to use the Hazards to kill the carrier. Its almost laughable watching 5+ marauders try to kill a tank with 2 healers behind him. This makes marauders one of the worst classes when it comes to achieve WZ objectives that are being guarded by tanks. Someone has to kill tanks quickly before reinforcements show up, and Marauders are NOT that class and so you will never see 4+ in any serious rated WZ team.

 

So in conclusion you have a very high dps class with powerful tools to avoid being focused first, but they require other classes with access to group utility like pull/guard/taunt/knockbacks/CC as well as healers to support them to achieve victory. They are neither a 1v1 god nor do they have no counter class in group PVP. They do very poorly at killing huttball carriers and killing tanks guarding nodes compared to other dps classes that can ignore a tanks defenses, and these are THE two most important things to do in the current objective based PVP.

 

Regardless of what is said I am sure many will still say that marauders are impossible to keep out of melee, or that they win 100% of all 1v1s, or that they have no counter class, or that they rip even tanks to pieces, or that predation/bloodthirst is better than having Pull/taunt/gaurd/knockbacks as well as multiple stuns, or that stacking 6 marauders is the key to victory. None of these are true. If you believe that they are true then you do not understand how the marauder class works in an objective based group PVP setting.

 

 

 

TLDR- Marauders are a powerful dps class that require other dps/tanks/healers with access to the utility of Pull/Gaurd/Knockback/Multiple Stuns/Taunts/Healing to win in an organized objective based group PVP setting. Oh and I guess flame away and what not.

 

I don't see any cons... At all. All it was is complaining that there are only two leaps... and then something about utility which group damage increase and group runs definitely fall under utility. Then multiple interupts... damage cc's, multiple defensive cd's, I just see a lot of utility.

[Rippeh]

yeah, pretty much the only thing that will reliably stop a marauder is the gunslinger/sniper snare. and since the latest balancing patch only so very slightly buffed snipers/gunslingers, maybe their idea of controlling marauders is to make gunslingers more popular. which i guess means you shouldnt expect marauder nerfs anytime soon. good thing i rerolled a marauder on a high pop server.

[alcek]

What is going on my server?

Total fotm imperial premade or semi-premade. The not-fotm classes suddenly got extinct somehow. 2-3 shadows, 1-2 operatives, 3-4 marauders. Any type of bounty hunters? Forget it, though pyros are considered op. Healing inquizitors? Just 1-2 die-hards. Juggernaughts? Just 1 odd full tank spec, a die hard too. Total new fotm opness wave.

If they dont balance the game a little bit, certain specs will dissappear completely.

Edited May 1, 2012 by alcek

[Varicite]

Who care's about defensive CD's. Ask a healer who takes more spikey damage in a game, a jug/guardian or a mara/sent.

 

They have CD's because they are super squishy. If you also lose track to someone in the time it takes to count to 4 you have serious issues.

 

This would make a lot more sense if the many classes that are a lot squishier than Marauders had half as many defensive cooldowns.

 

/shrug

[GrandMike]

What is going on my server?

Total fotm imperial premade or semi-premade. The not-fotm classes suddenly got extinct somehow. 2-3 shadows, 1-2 operatives, 3-4 marauders. Any type of bounty hunters? Forget it, though pyros are considered op. Healing inquizitors? Just 1-2 die-hards. Juggernaughts? Just 1 odd full tank spec, a die hard too. Total new fotm opness wave.

If they dont balance the game a little bit, certain specs will dissappear completely.

 

Uh oh, hoping for any kind of balance, after experience thats called 1,2, is hoping for miracles. It would actually mean they have a clue what theyre doing, but as it seems they are in total denial *slowly push all problems under the rug and whistle away*

Edited May 1, 2012 by GrandMike

[Veeius]

Who care's about defensive CD's. Ask a healer who takes more spikey damage in a game, a jug/guardian or a mara/sent.

 

They have CD's because they are super squishy. If you also lose track to someone in the time it takes to count to 4 you have serious issues.

 

 

uh..... I also have a healer, and you're wrong on an epic scale. There is VERY little difference, both in spike, and in sustained incoming damage UNLESS the jugg is a tank *****AND**** the attack is a mara or another jug. IN THAT SPECIFIC combination, the tank spec'd jugg/guard is much better, in ANY other configuration, there's very little difference, because the ONLY difference between the 2 is one has heavy armor, and one has medium, but SURPRISE, there's not that much difference between the two against most attacks.

 

Right now, if you're a jugg/guard, sucks to be you. If you're mara/sent, grats on fotm.

 

Lastly, the recurring argument of "we're the least changed class, so we're not OP" - yeah, that shows an astonishing amount of ignorance. If everyone is nerfed, and you're left alone, what does that do to your respective power in relation to the nerfed classes (hint: it makes you stronger AND them weaker).

[islander]

This would make a lot more sense if the many classes that are a lot squishier than Marauders had half as many defensive cooldowns.

 

/shrug

 

Most classes are ranged, that in itself is a defensive mechanism compared to having to be 4m from your target in order to do most of your damage.

 

I agree, again, that Mara/Sent overall defenses could withstand a mild nerf (see my notes on Cloak of Pain in prveious posts).

[Astarica]

Most classes are ranged, that in itself is a defensive mechanism compared to having to be 4m from your target in order to do most of your damage.

 

I agree, again, that Mara/Sent overall defenses could withstand a mild nerf (see my notes on Cloak of Pain in prveious posts).

 

Nerfing Cloak of Pain is probably the right way to go, and I think either dropping it to 15/60 uptime or just take the % reduction in half would do the trick. Either way nerfing the Cloak of Pain is likely to have a profound effect on the class's survivality.

[Serrowherrow]

Nerfing Cloak of Pain is probably the right way to go, and I think either dropping it to 15/60 uptime or just take the % reduction in half would do the trick. Either way nerfing the Cloak of Pain is likely to have a profound effect on the class's survivality.

 

The thing a lot of people don't understand is that whatever nerf is dealt out, should there be one, it needs to be more scalpel and less chainsaw.

 

If they nerf the DPS to an unacceptable level, then why bring a marauder DPS when say, a sorc could do more, but also bring all the utility it does? Or a Juggernaut? Don't get me wrong, I don't think marauders need to out-dps everyone by a huge margin, but it needs to be enough to where if you want to fill a slot to do nothing -BUT- kill people, a marauder is a viable choice.

 

If they nerf the survivability too much, pug-play will suffer even more. Premades won't be as affected because of designated healers who'll likely be good at what they do; I rarely ever need to pop defensive cooldowns when we run with our ops or BH healer. However, the limitation behind a medium-armor melee-only class is that it is severely hampered by the amount of slows, snares, roots, and stuns in this game. You do 0 DPS when you're dead, every good pvper knows this.

 

And if they nerf both too hard, it's total GG. Why bring a marauder if they're squishy enough that they need constant maintenance, but bring no additional DPS or utility to a group?

 

tl;dr Regardless of whether or not the class requires a nerf, some of the suggestions on these forums may as well have Bioware delete the class from the game and give every mara/sara a free level 50 toon. It may seem easy to say, "Slap a 30% nerf and call it a day." on to a class you don't play, but the more the community plays this game, the more likely it'll eventually be your class on the chopping block next. (Lookin' at you tank-sins.)