Griefing: Everyone's Problem

[Tickdoff-Tank]

You are assuming that the government in question would handle things absolutely perfectly. Perhaps in the real world it would work as you described, but certainly not in the movies. And this game is a lot more like a movie than real life. Immersion doesn't mean realistic, immersion means feeling like you are part of the story/game/movie/etc.

 

If anyone thinks that the response of a government would be anywhere CLOSE to perfect, then I would suggest you run a google search with the words "FEMA and KATRINA" in it. That would be enlightening.

[Dralanna]

Evidently, none of those complaining received any msg informing them of the results; not proof, but evidence towards a reasonable conclusion.

 

And I will use all the methods available that are at my disposal; not only the ones some may feel are best. But thanks for caring!

 

I'm not sure you actually read what I wrote... but as I said, people should not expect to be informed of what action, if any, BW takes. So, they will probably receive no proof, no evidence to draw a reasonable conclusion. I know that this is your first MMO, so you probably don't realize that not being informed of every action that BW takes is normal.

 

Also, not sure where you got the idea that I actually care what you do, I'm just enjoying the opportunity to poke holes in almost every point you make... so thank you for providing that opportunity!

 

Oh, or were you being sarcastic?

Edited April 25, 2012 by Dralanna

[Drakkip]

I'm not sure you actually read what I wrote... but as I said, people should not expect to be informed of what action, if any, BW takes. So, they will probably receive no proof, no evidence to draw a reasonable conclusion. I know that this is your first MMO, so you probably don't realize that not being informed of every action that BW takes is normal.

 

Also, not sure where you got the idea that I actually care what you do, I'm just enjoying the opportunity to poke holes in almost every point you make... so thank you for providing that opportunity!

 

Oh, or were you being sarcastic?

 

Patch notes indicating that this (PvP flagging from an opposite faction exploding in your vicinity) would provide what people who were affected by this are looking for I think. I think that is the sort of "informed action" people are looking for, at least, that's what I am looking for.

[Dralanna]

Patch notes indicating that this (PvP flagging from an opposite faction exploding in your vicinity) would provide what people who were affected by this are looking for I think. I think that is the sort of "informed action" people are looking for, at least, that's what I am looking for.

 

Yes, as has been mentioned a few time, almost everyone agrees that the involuntary flagging was not a good thing. The poster I was responding to, however, insists that passing the disease to someone on the fleet should also be considered griefing.

 

My point still stands, though, actions BW takes against individuals will almost never be made public, as is the case in just about every MMO I've played. The exceptions are usually very high profile situations (such as the original white crystal exploit)

[SWaotc]

Well something should be made public, afterall how are we to know that they actually do ANYTHING about legitimate complaints?? This might be the online gaming culture but at the end of the day its us as players paying their wages and i cant say at all that i'm confident that bioware or any other games company does enough on these matters.

[Drakkip]

Yes, as has been mentioned a few time, almost everyone agrees that the involuntary flagging was not a good thing. The poster I was responding to, however, insists that passing the disease to someone on the fleet should also be considered griefing.

 

I'm on page with you there.

 

My point still stands, though, actions BW takes against individuals will almost never be made public, as is the case in just about every MMO I've played. The exceptions are usually very high profile situations (such as the original white crystal exploit)

 

Yep, I'm on page with you there.

 

My thoughts were that I would prefer to see rather than speaking to specific issues patch related notees tha read something like "Players can no longer be unintenionally flagged by players of opposing factions on PVE realms when during events they are caught in flagged opposing faction members AE" Or something to that affect...

[Dralanna]

My thoughts were that I would prefer to see rather than speaking to specific issues patch related notees tha read something like "Players can no longer be unintenionally flagged by players of opposing factions on PVE realms when during events they are caught in flagged opposing faction members AE" Or something to that affect...

 

Ah gotcha.... that makes sense to me.

[Elhanan]

I really can't believe anyone didn't get infected who didn't want to be infected. The 30 minute wait for people to explode the easy of getting a vaccine to save yourself, the fact that the infected actually looked infected? No infection was hard and near impossible especially with servers being underpopulated as they are. There were plenty of way to avoid infected players and more to keep yourself from being infected.

 

It is easier when they are not behind you, and you have a store inventory in yout face.

 

The Fleet should be off limits, as well as any Rest Area from these types of mechanics/ attacks.

[RavinKing]

i can understand the complaint about people on PvE getting flagged for PvP by AOEs but i would not associate that with any specific event as it was and continues to be an exploit that players use. as for people getting infected who didn't want to be, i'm going to side with the "vaccine solves that issue" people. i never once got hit when on the capitol world, or in the fleet, the only time i did get hit was in War Zones. even then that only happened 4 times total. ya my reaction was "you ***!" but i would hardly consider that griefing. I didn't care to participate in the event, but i also figured it would take a large amount of effort to not catch the plague at least once during the event, and in the end my desire to not catch the plague caused me to participate in a strange round about way, i would avoid people or focus them down simply because the were infected. so ya i didn't go to tat, didn't get any of the gear, didn't get the pet, still had a fun time with the event. this wouldn't be the case without the bio bomb effect that the infection had.

[Elhanan]

i can understand the complaint about people on PvE getting flagged for PvP by AOEs but i would not associate that with any specific event as it was and continues to be an exploit that players use. as for people getting infected who didn't want to be, i'm going to side with the "vaccine solves that issue" people. i never once got hit when on the capitol world, or in the fleet, the only time i did get hit was in War Zones. even then that only happened 4 times total. ya my reaction was "you ***!" but i would hardly consider that griefing. I didn't care to participate in the event, but i also figured it would take a large amount of effort to not catch the plague at least once during the event, and in the end my desire to not catch the plague caused me to participate in a strange round about way, i would avoid people or focus them down simply because the were infected. so ya i didn't go to tat, didn't get any of the gear, didn't get the pet, still had a fun time with the event. this wouldn't be the case without the bio bomb effect that the infection had.

 

Understood, but others posted stories of just such occasions of ruined Groupings, excessive cost, lag caused by Fleet camping, etc. While not experienced by those on one server, Griefing was attested to on others.

 

On my own server, there were a couple of attempts made on my Alt while on the Imp Capitol world, and once in a non-Green Zone Shuttle Bay area; forget exactly where, but I think it was the Fleet again.

 

Whether or not the 'Gifting' of the infection is considered Griefing, there are enough other cases presented to warrant greater clarification of PvP rules, Griefing, and what is being done to help insure that it is being stopped from continuing into the next Event.

[DevonDs]

That's why I wish we could kill same faction, like Shadowbane allowed us to do.

Bad actions had consquences, but carebear games like this one, WoW, Rift... all of them... have no consquences and griefers feed off their need to inflict MMO herpes.

 

without full-on player killing, MMOs like this one are just fluffy puff games for carebears.

 

I'm curious, can some explain the " insult slur" vocabulary. I see the derogatory and dehumanizing slur "care bear" used to describe people who don't enjoy pvp(not sure why not enjoying a specific style of play means someone should be refered to with a derogatory slur). I am curiouse however as to what the balancing derogatory abusive slur term is for all people who enjoy pvp..... Griefer refers to a specific set of activities so that can't be used inclusively since most pvp lovers I know are anti grieving......so that won't work.....ganker likewise refers to a specific activity of higher level killing lower level.....zerger certainly wouldn't work since it again refers to a specific activity...

 

Obviously referring to those normal gamers who enjoy pve but not pvp bt derogatory slur is considered ok... So I am asking...what is the derogatory dehumanizing slur for those folks folks who are normal gamers who like pvp....

 

I would never use it, since I avoid tossing dehumanizing slurs at races, genders game styles etc.... However I am curious.....since the slur care bear seems so popular.

[Calsetes]

You were provided options to not participate. Via the vaccine or via simply running away. Exploding people are rooted in place, they can't chase you.

 

If it were broken, they could have simply hot fixed it during regular down time. The fact that it was not fixed tells me...that yes...it worked as it should have.

Again, just because you didn't like it...didn't mean it was unintended.

 

I want to participate in the PvE portion of the event, which includes getting an infection from other players. I do NOT see how catching a cold from someone else suddenly means I wish to kill them, rip their arms off, and devour their heart while it's still beating.

 

Again, you can make the argument as well that since Bioware never informed people that it wasn't unintentionally flagging you for combat, doesn't mean it was intended. Bioware never said anything one way or the other about if it was intended or not. And regardless of if it was intended or not, this is providing feedback for the next event and suggesting that, again, there should be no way to flag someone else on a PvE server for PvP, unless they willingly choose to go into a PvP area with proper warnings, or queue for a PvP warzone, or something along those lines.

[Elhanan]

I'm curious, can some explain the " insult slur" vocabulary. I see the derogatory and dehumanizing slur "care bear" used to describe people who don't enjoy pvp(not sure why not enjoying a specific style of play means someone should be refered to with a derogatory slur). I am curiouse however as to what the balancing derogatory abusive slur term is for all people who enjoy pvp..... Griefer refers to a specific set of activities so that can't be used inclusively since most pvp lovers I know are anti grieving......so that won't work.....ganker likewise refers to a specific activity of higher level killing lower level.....zerger certainly wouldn't work since it again refers to a specific activity...

 

Obviously referring to those normal gamers who enjoy pve but not pvp bt derogatory slur is considered ok... So I am asking...what is the derogatory dehumanizing slur for those folks folks who are normal gamers who like pvp....

 

I would never use it, since I avoid tossing dehumanizing slurs at races, genders game styles etc.... However I am curious.....since the slur care bear seems so popular.

 

May I suggest 'Olive Oyls' - any plain excuse for others to continue fighting!!!

 

From what I understand, Griefing has been around MMO's and m/p games a very long time. As far as I can tell, the seperation of PvP, RP, and PvE servers originated from trying to control it, but this failed. In most recent games, Griefing has been primarily within PvP due to the more physical aspects associated with it, but Player Killing does not have to result to gain the title, as Chat, Auctions, and other more social aspects may be also used for spoiling play for others.

 

In the case of this recent Event, most of the reports of Griefing that I read were from PvE realms, as a story mechanic became exploitable, and some Players chose to misuse it for the intended purpose.

 

Moving forward, it would seem to help prevent Griefing by having Bioware clarify their intent for Missions, posting of rules that would aid in maintaining such intent. and more public notices of penalties for those violating such rules.

[Lesta]

Didn't read all the pages, so I apologize in advance if these points have been made. First, camping on the fleet I don't find to be an exploit. A little cheesy perhaps and not quite what was intended but really....who cares? If people want to spend their game time standing around getting blown and infected, so be it. I chose to get my DNA samples by questing and getting other loot as well. I thought it was a cool idea about a plague spreading across the universe. that's why it was easy to get off planet with it. The WHOLE concept was about this plague spreading and if it goes to a lowbie planet so much the better. It was supposed to be a terrible thing. I say KUDOS! And if you really wanted to not get infected you just had to pay a little bit of attention to what was going on around you. As far as the PvP flag...well that's a bug in the game and one they are fixing. Its not that big a deal however.

[Lesta]

I'm curious, can some explain the " insult slur" vocabulary. I see the derogatory and dehumanizing slur "care bear" used to describe people who don't enjoy pvp(not sure why not enjoying a specific style of play means someone should be refered to with a derogatory slur). I am curiouse however as to what the balancing derogatory abusive slur term is for all people who enjoy pvp..... Griefer refers to a specific set of activities so that can't be used inclusively since most pvp lovers I know are anti grieving......so that won't work.....ganker likewise refers to a specific activity of higher level killing lower level.....zerger certainly wouldn't work since it again refers to a specific activity...

 

Obviously referring to those normal gamers who enjoy pve but not pvp bt derogatory slur is considered ok... So I am asking...what is the derogatory dehumanizing slur for those folks folks who are normal gamers who like pvp....

 

I would never use it, since I avoid tossing dehumanizing slurs at races, genders game styles etc.... However I am curious.....since the slur care bear seems so popular.

 

The term 'carebear' i don't believe describes a player who does not like PvP. Rather its more of an adjective to describe a type of game or style of game that is not hard. Its very easy. It offers little challenge or penalty. You can't be 'hurt' by anything in the game. Nothing 'bad' really ever happens. So the comment about people liking a 'carebear' game is saying that some gamers (mostly the casual crowd) wants a game that's more fluff and flowers than hard, gritty, difficult experience.

[Jestunhi]

The Rakghoul Plague, well, there was vaccine, so not too bad.

 

The exploiting of AoE to flag another person is just that, an exploit. Report them for it, names, levels, class, AC, time, place, circumstances, and server, plus your information as well. Forced into PvP while you are questing and fighting a mob, is a cowardly way to "gain" a kill for lowly griefers, and is an exploit that does need to be rectified.

 

This exploit has been going on for months, or since BETA and or release.

 

Back on Hoth I was solo questing, attacked a mob with 2 Strong in it, as a tank I used an AoE (Wither) as did Khem, found myself dead ??? and Flagged PvP and saw 4 Republics leaving me. Bad enough I was engaged in a fight, worse they exploited me into PvP mode, worse still it took 4??? of them to kill me with a mob too? (that's why cowards and lowly, and without any honor). As I went around in the tunnels I noticed a lot of other single Imperials lying dead on the ground so it was not just me.

 

Fix the forced PvP Exploit, Please BW.

 

This.

 

The problem is that using a non-direct targeted ability (i.e. ground target, PBAoE, cone, etc) ability with no pvp flag and having a flagged enemy run into that area will cause you to flag.

 

The event was just another way to do it, but no more so than by running into an enemies lightning storm . death from above / etc.

[HeavensAgent]

Per a clarification provided by a GM who responded to a report I filled against a higher-level character that was camping me, grieffing requires one to be actively prevented from participating in game content altogether. In essence, grieffing is the same thing as harassment, and if you can do something else where the player can not or will not bother you, it is not actionable. Retreating to a safe area to run Warzones of FPs, returning to your ship to run space missions, changing planet instances, and simply moving to a different area of a planet, or another planet altogether, are valid methods of overcoming grieffing. As such, a player has to show effort in interrupting all these avenues of play before the situation is actionable.

 

For this reason, grieffing is almost never acted upon, and when it is it usually involves players belonging to the same faction.

 

In the case of the event, grieffing was not occurring. The plague, as well as the spreading of the plague, were intentional game play mechanics. Becoming infected did not prevent you from taking part in the rest of the game's content. It was part of the story and lore behind the event, as was the need to remain vigilant if you wished to avoid infection.

[EnufThree]

The 2k fee was a bit steep for my 10th moving from Shuttle to Shuttle, and not all worlds had access to the serum before entering the 'security' of the Fleet, I believe.

 

Capitol planets had Players trying to infect others at the markets, and these low lvl areas should have been Off Limits, IMO.

 

The price of the vaccines were not an issue in any way. At least not for my main or my low level alts. I mean, you could get them for free just by doing one or two of the daily missions attached to the event.

 

And if the event was something you WANTED to be part of, then there was no reason to have the vaccines. Getting infected and infecting others was a big part of it. I think I had a number of vaccines in my inventory when the event ended.

 

You could have even asked others if they were willing to give up their vaccines. I'm sure someone would have helped you out.

 

Besides, 2k isn't that much.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Sireene
use of retarded - PM'd

[Elyssandra]

What were you prevented from doing due to being infected OP?

 

Please don't use the word "griefing" when you were inconvenienced in some minor way.

You diminish the whole idea of what griefing is - player harassment.

 

Some kid skateboarding past you, bumping into you and causing you to drop your freezie on a hot summer day is not a symptom of "hooliganism", "violent attacks by youngsters" and "yob culture" regardless of the fact that you lost your freezie.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Funny, is whining about what is happening to you character in a game not a "special" phenomenon?

 

I´m sure there will be the day when some loony emotionally disturbed carebear will sue another player for a million dollars because he has been traumatized for being virtually killed by a lightsaber or infected by the evil Rakghoul virus.

First world problems. Some people should get a grip or stop gaming, seems like virtual worlds have a negative impact on simple minds.

 

From "The Urban Dictionary":

 

"Care Bear"

234 up, 33 down

1. Lightly derogatory term for an MMO player who avoids PVP combat, heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests. Depending on the game and the individual, this PVP avoidance can show up in several ways: by playing on strict non-PVP servers; by avoiding PVP areas or declining duels; or, by avoiding or condemning PVP players. Philosophically, they often cite unbalanced combat systems, overpowered guilds, ebayed characters, and ganking as reasons to prefer less aggressive play. The mindset can be self-sustaining in several ways: high-level "care bears" may have avatars that are tailored for PVE, not PVP; they may not network with skilled PVP players; or, they may morally refuse to learn aggressive PVP tactics. As an insult, the term applies less to players who merely prefer PVE to PVP and more to individuals who question the basic legitimacy of PVP or who greatly overreact to their avatars' deaths.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[VicSkimmr]

Funny, is whining about what is happening to you character in a game not a "special" phenomenon?

 

I´m sure there will be the day when some loony emotionally disturbed carebear will sue another player for a million dollars because he has been traumatized for being virtually killed by a lightsaber or infected by the evil Rakghoul virus.

First world problems. Some people should get a grip or stop gaming, seems like virtual worlds have a negative impact on simple minds.

 

Technically it's first world event problems.

[Kfab]

I saw a lot of threads complaining about getting infected, and earlier in this one included. The PvP flagging thing probably was an oversight and a likely an exploit, as many of us agree. But let's look at the plague itself.

 

The only detriment to having it, mechanically, was two-fold. The first would be that every once in a while while infected, you would be stunned for a short time while it did puking animation. All classes have an ability what would "unstun" you and and cancel the animation. The second effect was the randomly exploding while feverish. This caused no durability damage to your gear, but was otherwise treated as a death but you got the DNA samples, that you could then turn in for items or sell for 5k or so each on fleet.

 

If you didn't want to be infected, you had three courses of action. The first was to buy the vaccine for 2k credits. The second is to commit suicide, and depending how you did it may or may not cause durability damage. The third option was to just ask someone for the vaccine. I know that once I figured out it was beneficial to me to be infected, I'd just give away the vaccines I'd gotten as quest items.

 

As there are really no drawbacks to being infected, and the fact you could make 25k credits easily from one death, would pay for 12 vaccines, means a lot of the whining was just that.

 

Onto griefing, world PvP isn't greifing. If you are flagged, you can choose to risk being attacked by going about your business as normal, or you could play it safe and wait out the 5 minute timer. And as to other players flagging themselves and then getting caught in your AoEs to flag you, a little situational awareness goes a long way. You choose to hit that AoE. They didn't make you do it.

 

Stay alert, stay alive.

 

So what you are telling me is that I can't use the game mechanics that are provided to me on a PvE server. Right. Please pay my $15 per month. This way I can play the game how YOU want it played.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

So what you are telling me is that I can't use the game mechanics that are provided to me on a PvE server. Right. Please pay my $15 per month. This way I can play the game how YOU want it played.

 

There is, and will always be, Hello Kitty Online...

[Kfab]

There is, and will always be, Hello Kitty Online...

 

Wow, what a witty comeback. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Elhanan]

Didn't read all the pages, so I apologize in advance if these points have been made. First, camping on the fleet I don't find to be an exploit. A little cheesy perhaps and not quite what was intended but really....who cares? If people want to spend their game time standing around getting blown and infected, so be it. I chose to get my DNA samples by questing and getting other loot as well. I thought it was a cool idea about a plague spreading across the universe. that's why it was easy to get off planet with it. The WHOLE concept was about this plague spreading and if it goes to a lowbie planet so much the better. It was supposed to be a terrible thing. I say KUDOS! And if you really wanted to not get infected you just had to pay a little bit of attention to what was going on around you. As far as the PvP flag...well that's a bug in the game and one they are fixing. Its not that big a deal however.

 

Evidently, there are indeed some who do care; me included. Not being able to catch a Shuttle at 10th w/o being infected was not fun for me; wanted nothing to do with the storyline. It is already bad enough on Taris, let alone spread across the known galaxy.

 

And lowbies - esp those new to the game - may not exactly embrace a 2k vaccine or die option; be it profitable orr not. It should have been off the starting worlds completely, and allowed the 'media presentations' spread the panic in RP fashion. IMO.

 

And that little extra bit of attention that was required meant less shopping; more doing w/o the tasks I wished to finish because somebody else wishes to hamper my choice of play.

 

People are welcome to their opinions, but should remember they are worth no less and no more than others.