The end of the arguement. Is SWTOR in decline? Can it be saved?

[Eanelinea]

I quit the game which will not be named to come here. I had 6 levels 85s in the other game, did a ton of raids, dungeons, bgs, etc and was bored to tears. I was like 10 mounts away from 100. And I had like 70 vanity pets.

 

I come here to TOR and I'm instantly hooked. The stories are great, the voice acting is fun and well done and even though most planets I've done 4 times each (I have 8 different classes), I might skip through the side quests, but I always listen to the class stories.

 

You DO make a difference in your choices. Make two of the same class, have one light side and one dark side. On one side kill off every single NPC you can, on the light side let everyone live. It does change. I played a Light Side Sith Warrior and some of the people I let live, early on in my leveling, were there for me at the end of my class story as support.

 

My smuggler, I was going to flirt and sleep around like a loose moraled women, but Corso kept me from doing that with his jealously, and what I've found in the tail end of chapter 3 (haven't finished it yet) made me glad I didn't sleep around.

 

The SIDE quests may not change anything whether you go light, dark or neutral, but your class story sure does change! I don't plan on leaving and as long as Bioware continues to do World Events, add new content, make the game FUN and FOR GOODNESS SAKE ADD MORE TO OUR COMPANIONS!!! I plan to stay here as long as they stay pay-to-play (because free to play never really IS free to play, you still wind up spending money to get what you once could with a subscription---I'm looking at you EQ2)

 

I like the stories, companions, space, and voice overs.

 

If you don't like any of those, why are you here? It is going to take TIME for this game to evolve and grow and become even better. You can't expect them to give you EVERYTHING off the bat. You want everything now? Make a game yourself or go back to that OTHER game.

 

Frankly, I'm staying here.

[GalacticKegger]

You DO make a difference in your choices. Make two of the same class, have one light side and one dark side. On one side kill off every single NPC you can, on the light side let everyone live. It does change. I played a Light Side Sith Warrior and some of the people I let live, early on in my leveling, were there for me at the end of my class story as support.

Thank you! Years down the road when the game is polished and has stuff like Wing Commander/E&B space combat, it's legacy (no pun intended) will be the companions. To me they changed the rules for how MMORPGs work. GW tried it (sort of) but they were a real charlie fox, getting in the way more often than helping.

 

The companions in TOR are definitely integral to a character's story, and how they are handled (or mishandled) does produce consequences. My Marauder was assigned to kill two of his companions (no spoliers here ... sorry) and I shudder to think where my character would be had I not spared them. They really are integral to the game. Microing a companion with another player doing the same in a level-appropriate flashpoint is one of the most fun challenges I've experienced in any MMO.

Edited April 26, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Sanxxx]

On another note, here's a very interesting correlation here: Every single member of my guild started playing on Day One of Early Access. Every single member of my guild is still playing daily. All of them are still enjoying the leveling of alts immensely. We haven't gotten to HMs yet. All of them are extremely happy with TOR.

 

But here's the correlation: Not a single one, but me, comes to these forums.

 

My version;

 

On another note, here's a very interesting correlation here: Every single member of my guild started playing on Day One of Early Access. Every single member of my guild has quit. All of them are waiting on other games. We cleared the HMs. All of them are extremely frustrated and let down with TOR (esp. PVP)

 

But here's the correlation: Not a single one, but me, comes to these forums.

[Mashy]

My version;

 

On another note, here's a very interesting correlation here: Every single member of my guild started playing on Day One of Early Access. Every single member of my guild has quit. All of them are waiting on other games. We cleared the HMs. All of them are extremely frustrated and let down with TOR (esp. PVP)

 

But here's the correlation: Not a single one, but me, comes to these forums.

 

Pretty nicely said. For me there is just nothing to do or explore. That's the biggie and farming anything is for crap. I cry at night for what this game is now.

[Devlonir]

GW - 6 million copies sold

 

Source - http://www.guildwars.com/events/press/releases/pressrelease-2009-04-24.php

 

And this is as much stat-padding as anything else. 6 million copies sold of the (here comes it) FRANCHISE. Which consists of 4 different products. So assuming each player bought all 3 expansions and the main game, that is a maximum of 1.5 million customers. Of course, most didn't even bother with 1, 2 or 3 expansions, so let's say the total amount of customers for Guild Wars is then estimated between 2 and 2.5 million unique customers at best. Most of which did not even buy all expansions.

 

Yeah, very succesful... About as succesfull as SWTOR customer base 2 months into the game to be exact.

[xQuicksilverx]

yea for the most part the exploring is done for me. I can't shake the feeling like im on a track.. and if I deviate from it, I'm playing the game wrong.

[Devlonir]

My version;

 

On another note, here's a very interesting correlation here: Every single member of my guild started playing on Day One of Early Access. Every single member of my guild has quit. All of them are waiting on other games. We cleared the HMs. All of them are extremely frustrated and let down with TOR (esp. PVP)

 

But here's the correlation: Not a single one, but me, comes to these forums.

 

Oooh oooh, can I join?

 

On another note, here's a very interesting correlation: Every single original member of my guild started playing in Early Acces. Every single original member of my guild still plays. None of them are waiting on other games. We have not cleared the HMs but are recruiting now and our small guild of 4 friends has grown to have almost 50 characters of 20 unique players right now. Some of them can't play now because of personal or financial situations, but all of them are still active with our guild one way or the other. We are growing as a new group of people within this new game, together. Without hanging on to old connections we have all moved on from others games to come to this one.

 

But here's the correlation: Not a single one, but me, comes to these forums.

[unseenmaji]

And this is as much stat-padding as anything else. 6 million copies sold of the (here comes it) FRANCHISE. Which consists of 4 different products. So assuming each player bought all 3 expansions and the main game, that is a maximum of 1.5 million customers. Of course, most didn't even bother with 1, 2 or 3 expansions, so let's say the total amount of customers for Guild Wars is then estimated between 2 and 2.5 million unique customers at best. Most of which did not even buy all expansions.

 

Yeah, very succesful... About as succesfull as SWTOR customer base 2 months into the game to be exact.

 

Your logic is flawed. SWTOR will flop soon not saving it game was rushed to release and the devs have no idea what there doing they throw out fluff to distract the lesser minded but those whom can think easily see it all for what it is a distraction to retain subs.

[Devlonir]

Your logic is flawed. SWTOR will flop soon not saving it game was rushed to release and the devs have no idea what there doing they throw out fluff to distract the lesser minded but those whom can think easily see it all for what it is a distraction to retain subs.

 

Wait wait.. let me read that again? My logic is flawed, while based on actual numbers? While you are right when your entire post is based on hyperbole and opinion?

 

I only state sales numbers as the customer base. This has nothing to do with how many people still play or have subscriptions. The poster I replied to stated 6 million franchise sales numbers as a highly succesful Guild Wars lifetime and I simply took those numbers and put them in perspective to what SWTOR has already achieved when it comes to something simple as sales numbers. How is that flawed logic? Please explain to me!

 

Sorry, but someone who states opinion as fact while disregarding clear facts as a flawed logic is not someone I want to discuss anything with. So your points are not even worth replying to.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Devlonir

[Seriasx]

I generally hope for at least 3 months of fun for new mmos and I got nearly 4 from swtor. I'll be checking this game out in the future to see when more content is added and hopefully have fun playing again.

[Goretzu]

The queues and the crashing (mostly early on for the latter). There were some who claimed that WoW would never last "x" years but they were lost in the rest of the uproar-du-jour stuff.

 

Point being this type of prophecy has been ongoing since UO days, but lately...yikes...exponentially worse. I truly feel badly for absolute newcomers to the genre (are there any left?) because forums now-days are more about how loud one can shout and very much less about exchanging information and fostering community.

 

 

Yeah, like I said plenty of hyperbole, but there were still no real my server is dead/the population is dying ones. Probably because WoW was on a slow but stead build over the first few years.

 

 

There have been WoW is dying threads for years now. There are also articles about it from MMO sites. And posts about it in the forums of other games. And yet, it continues.

 

I'm sure there have. But not from vanilla to BC.

 

WoW likely is "dying" now (in the context that subs are almost certainly dropping), but that started sometime after WoTLK (although many, including myself left after BC when they realised WoW wasn't offering much), but in 2007 and prior? Not really.

[DieAlteHexe]

Your logic is flawed. SWTOR will flop soon not saving it game was rushed to release and the devs have no idea what there doing they throw out fluff to distract the lesser minded but those whom can think easily see it all for what it is a distraction to retain subs.

 

"Lesser minded". Tsk. Try making a point without insulting.

 

Could have said "other minded" or "less über minded" or any number of things.

 

Mouthing off like that doesn't help you with making what might be a valid point. Might be.

[patchew]

what i personally like to see is

1: more things with your pets when you get them maxed. Buying a house together, drunken relatives at your marriage ceremony, kids that go mad and you have to go save em, wife spends your cash on stupid stuff and you have to rebuke her and then she goes off on a girls night out and gets in trouble ... stuff like that has such scope for humour and funtime.

 

2: making is easier to upgrade gear. i cant work out where i should go to upgrade my gear outside of doing heroics and OPs and such. might be nice if it was easier to understand where the upgrades are from without going to other websites and such.

 

3: making vendors searchable .. ie limiting whats shown for sale by heavy/medium/light and by level range. i spend soooo much time going through vendors stuff, trying to find what gear i can actually use. if i wear heavy armour, i dont want to see light armour displayed by the vendor. I dont ask to see dresses when im looking to buy a pain of jeans in a clothes shop .. i just look at the jeans for sale.

 

4: the usual, more content blah blah blah. frankly, theres a fair amount of stuff to do.

i would, however, pass comment on the number of moutns available .... come on, theres essentially infinite numbers of mounts you could have in this galaxy. what about levitation pods, jetpacks, ridable wookies

 

5: and most impotantly, NO ADDONS AND NO MACROS. they will kill this game dead for people that arent nerdy addicts. keep swotr fun and you will maintain your player base ..... you'll lose the nerds but they will leave when the next big things comes along anyway, you will never fully please nerdy addicts so dont even bother trying. Yea yea i dont have to use addons/macros but what you forget is that my gameplay is affected when other people use them ....... its not fun dying in pvp in 1 second when you had a full bar of health a moment ago.

[Erishumlol]

And this is as much stat-padding as anything else. 6 million copies sold of the (here comes it) FRANCHISE. Which consists of 4 different products. So assuming each player bought all 3 expansions and the main game, that is a maximum of 1.5 million customers. Of course, most didn't even bother with 1, 2 or 3 expansions, so let's say the total amount of customers for Guild Wars is then estimated between 2 and 2.5 million unique customers at best. Most of which did not even buy all expansions.

 

Yeah, very succesful... About as succesfull as SWTOR customer base 2 months into the game to be exact.

 

 

So 2 - 2.5 million unique customers is not successful? TOR's customer base 2 months in was stated at 1.7 million and as of now we have no numbers but we all know subs have dropped unless you're living in lala land. Anyways we will see the real success of this game in a years time if it hasn't sunk by then.

[Devlonir]

So 2 - 2.5 million unique customers is not successful? TOR's customer base 2 months in was stated at 1.7 million and as of now we have no numbers but we all know subs have dropped unless you're living in lala land. Anyways we will see the real success of this game in a years time if it hasn't sunk by then.

 

No.. SWTOR's customer base 2 months in (actually closer to 1 month in as the numbers were from January 31st) was stated as Star Wars®: The Old Republic has generated 1.7 million active subscribers and sold through more than 2 million units in a little over one month.

Please, I hope you understand the difference between who a customer is and who an active subscriber/player is. For example: I am a customer of WoW, Battlefield 3, the Mass Effect series, the Assassin's Creed series, the Halo series and many, many other games. Yet I do not actively play them or actively pay for them. For those games, I'd be a customer, just not a subscriber.

 

Also, apparently I live in lala land, I should really change my adress. Because yes, I have seen subs being cancelled, experienced them as well in my guild. Though this is not enough definite proof for me to KNOW that subscriptions have dropped, for a fact. Nobody knows subs have dropped except EA/Bioware, which will make a report of the current situation on May 7th. Untill then, everyone except EA/Bioware employees seem to live in lala land following your definition of it.

The difference between knowing and suspecting is apparently lost to you..

 

Also, i never said 2-2.5 million is not succesful. I'm just saying that if you define that as succesful when looking only at raw sales numbers of product.. than SWTOR should also be considered succesful.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Devlonir

[VoXPCS]

There isn't a single building in the entire galaxy that I can run in a straight line for more than a couple seconds...Who designed this stuff?

 

I'm out again, for good.

 

Tera+Unreal Engine = <3

 

You all will to. Bye!

[Erishumlol]

No.. SWTOR's customer base 2 months in (actually closer to 1 month in as the numbers were from January 31st) was stated as Star Wars®: The Old Republic has generated 1.7 million active subscribers and sold through more than 2 million units in a little over one month.

Please, I hope you understand the difference between who a customer is and who an active subscriber/player is. For example: I am a customer of WoW, Battlefield 3, the Mass Effect series, the Assassin's Creed series, the Halo series and many, many other games. Yet I do not actively play them or actively pay for them. For those games, I'd be a customer, just not a subscriber.

 

Also, apparently I live in lala land, I should really change my adress. Because yes, I have seen subs being cancelled, experienced them as well in my guild. Though this is not enough definite proof for me to KNOW that subscriptions have dropped, for a fact. Nobody knows subs have dropped except EA/Bioware, which will make a report of the current situation on May 7th. Untill then, everyone except EA/Bioware employees seem to live in lala land following your definition of it.

The difference between knowing and suspecting is apparently lost to you..

 

Also, i never said 2-2.5 million is not succesful. I'm just saying that if you define that as succesful when looking only at raw sales numbers of product.. than SWTOR should also be considered succesful.

 

 

You want to compare raw numbers only and state TOR is as successful as GW? I don't care how long TOR has been out there's no way in hell they will sell 6 million copies, EVER.

 

GW = 6 million

 

TOR = 2 million

 

/End discussion

[DieAlteHexe]

There isn't a single building in the entire galaxy that I can run in a straight line for more than a couple seconds...Who designed this stuff?

 

I'm out again, for good.

 

Tera+Unreal Engine = <3

 

You all will to. Bye!

 

Not on a bet. So no, we all will not.

 

I do hope you enjoy it though! *waves*

[Sanxxx]

No.. SWTOR's customer base 2 months in (actually closer to 1 month in as the numbers were from January 31st) was stated as Star Wars®: The Old Republic has generated 1.7 million active subscribers and sold through more than 2 million units in a little over one month.

Suggesting 300k bought and didn't subscribe, probably average for any MMO ?

 

Please, I hope you understand the difference between who a customer is and who an active subscriber/player is. For example: I am a customer of WoW, Battlefield 3, the Mass Effect series, the Assassin's Creed series, the Halo series and many, many other games. Yet I do not actively play them or actively pay for them. For those games, I'd be a customer, just not a subscriber.

 

Evryone who bought and setup an EA/BW account is a customer, if you still have active game time (whether you paid or were given it free) , regardless of whether you login and play or not ,you are an Active Subscriber

 

Also, apparently I live in lala land, I should really change my adress. Because yes, I have seen subs being cancelled, experienced them as well in my guild. Though this is not enough definite proof for me to KNOW that subscriptions have dropped, for a fact. Nobody knows subs have dropped except EA/Bioware, which will make a report of the current situation on May 7th. Untill then, everyone except EA/Bioware employees seem to live in lala land following your definition of it.

The difference between knowing and suspecting is apparently lost to you..

 

Report of the situation as of 31st March on May 7th. Hmmn, definate proof...well there's all the posts on these forums and others lisitng personal experience and TorStatus that shows trending over time. So if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck and walks like a duck.....only a few seem to need the published genetic analysis.

 

Also, i never said 2-2.5 million is not succesful. I'm just saying that if you define that as succesful when looking only at raw sales numbers of product.. than SWTOR should also be considered succesful.

 

As you suggest, all depends on your defintion of successful, I happen to think 2m box sales is a success, EA may not.

[Devlonir]

You want to compare raw numbers only and state TOR is as successful as GW? I don't care how long TOR has been out there's no way in hell they will sell 6 million copies, EVER.

 

GW = 6 million

 

TOR = 2 million

 

/End discussion

 

Read my earlier post concerning what those 6 million GW throws around really mean (considering they are franchise numbers, not actualy unique customer numbers) and think again.

 

At least read earlier points people made before you claim to end a discussion. Sometimes I really feel I am a Debate teacher in highschool instead of a forum poster..

[Devlonir]

Suggesting 300k bought and didn't subscribe, probably average for any MMO ?

A 15% dropoff after the first month is actually not that bad at all considering industry standards. Some of those 300k were even admitted by EA/Bioware themselves to be people that 'have not even installed the game yet'.

 

Evryone who bought and setup an EA/BW account is a customer, if you still have active game time (whether you paid or were given it free) , regardless of whether you login and play or not ,you are an Active Subscriber

Which is exactly my point. You cannot claim subscriptions are down based on activity. You can only claim subscriptions are down based on, pretty obviously, subscriptions.

Everyone who bought this game is one unique customer of this game. This does not equal active players or subscriptions in one bit, but it does equal customer numbers.

Same goes for the Guild Wars 6 million. That number is greatly overturned, because if WoW would count all their expansions like Guild Wars does in that specific report their number of 'units sold' by the time of the 12 million high during WotLK had to be at least 36 million considering all players then had to have the original game, TBC and WotLK expansions. And this does not even take into account retention rates over the first years of WoW, which will increase the amount of units sold even more. My point was, 6 million units sold for the franchise does not equal 6 million unique customers.

 

Report of the situation as of 31st March on May 7th. Hmmn, definate proof...well there's all the posts on these forums and others lisitng personal experience and TorStatus that shows trending over time. So if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck and walks like a duck.....only a few seem to need the published genetic analysis.

Actually, the early February Quarterly statement done by EA reported the subscription numbers on February 1st, despite that being a month after the timeframe of the statement. I expect them to do something similar next week.

 

Also, the 'duck' you refer to is "lower player activity", because TorStatus only prooves that single aspect. And I agree players are a lot less active, even Bioware admitted this fact. This does not automatically mean lower subscription numbers though. If you bring the 'like a duck' statement here it is more like: "If it walks like a duck (being lower number of active players observed personally), talks like a duck (being server status showing lower numbers because of activity), it does not mean that it is a goose (being lower subscriptions).

 

As you suggest, all depends on your defintion of successful, I happen to think 2m box sales is a success, EA may not.

500.000 recurring subscriptions by the end of the year would have made the game economically viable, anything more is a success. The words of Bioware/EA execs before the launch. Seeing we are on the way to exceeding that, I think (note, opinion, not fact) that EA is still putting SWTOR in the 'mildly succesful' box at least.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Devlonir

[Erishumlol]

My point was, 6 million units sold for the franchise does not equal 6 million unique customers.

 

And the point I was trying to make is that 6 million units sold is still more than 2 million units sold. I didn't say GW had 6 million customers, I said that you can't say that TOR is as successful as GW with only having 2 million units sold.

 

Oh and BTW if you're going to act like a teacher at least learn to spell before posting, even use spell check if you have any problems. It makes you look less bad.

[Sanxxx]

Actually, the early February Quarterly statement done by EA reported the subscription numbers on February 1st, despite that being a month after the timeframe of the statement. I expect them to do something similar next week.

 

Which given 30 days free with purchase was pretty much a no-brainer.

 

Also, the 'duck' you refer to is "lower player activity", because TorStatus only prooves that single aspect. And I agree players are a lot less active, even Bioware admitted this fact. This does not automatically mean lower subscription numbers though.

 

Not automatically no, but the correlation is obvious and the significant trend on TorStatus would point to one logical conclusion. However those who subscribed for 3/6 months but for whatever ever reason have stopped playing, one description being 'less actiive' another 'inactive' are still counted as subscribers. My sub will expire towards the end of July, if I were to never log in again I guess you could be disinegenuous and call me 'less actiive'

Edited April 26, 2012 by Sanxxx

[Erishumlol]

LAWL!! Be careful, I replied to this genius yesterday while he spouted his opinion as fact in badly constructed sentences and had my post deleted and a warning sent by the moderator.

 

Thanks for the heads up. There's no point in discussing anything with him anymore as he knows it all including who killed Kennedy and if there is life on other planets.

[Devlonir]

And the point I was trying to make is that 6 million units sold is still more than 2 million units sold. I didn't say GW had 6 million customers, I said that you can't say that TOR is as successful as GW with only having 2 million units sold.

 

Ok, good point.

Now, I am starting with a few assumptions here. But let's say that next week they will report that the amount of subscriptions have stayed the same since their February report, something that has been hinted on in earlier communications I might add.

 

So, this means that besides the $60,- buy-in price they have also had 3 to 4 months of subscription, that can be averaged as about 3,5 months of subscriptions used assuming all of those people actually stayed. But, we also need to take into account new customers as well as people leaving before that time. Drop offs being equal to new customers of course, otherwise the 1.7 million figure cannot stick. These drop offs all had one free month. So, for the sake of argument and unbiased numbers as much as possible, I will assume that the first 1.7 million clients have all also left already and been replaced by new customers, reducing the average time of subscriptions by one month to 2,5 (please do note that I am not even counting the sales of new games yet, because nobody knows those numbers).

 

Alright, so with the numbers we now have, and the assumptions I just described, I come to the following conclusions:

 

2 million sales times $60 makes a total of $120 million initial revenue.

add to that 2,5 months average subscription length times the amount of active subscribers (1,7 million) times the subscription cost ($15), which creates a revenue of: $63 million.

 

That brings the minimum revenue of this game to $183 million so far. Note, this is the minimum considering the numbers we have been given.

The number will rise because of these known facts:

- early February was reported as "more than 2 million." we just do not know how much more exactly

- not everyone is on a monthly time, so the average of actually paid subscription time is more than used subscription times.

- since February people have left the game, but people have joined as well. So the 'more than 2 million' sales number of February is very outdated, especially considering the game still showed on many top 10 sales lists well into March and start of April.

 

So, now to Guild Wars. They sold 6 million units through their entire lifetime, also all $60 each for easier calculations. This means that game made a total of $360 million over the entire lifespan of the game.

 

I can only conclude that, assuming there are still 1.7 million subscriptions (which was hinted to by EA/Bioware execs), that SWTOR has already had a minimum revenue after 4 months of half the amount of money made on Guild Wars through the entire length of it's existence and 3 expansions. And each passing month, SWTOR revenue becomes more and more because of the subscription model.

 

So your point: I cannot say the game is more succesful than GW, I must say you are correct. Though I will change that statement to say: "I cannot say the game is more succesful than Guild Wars right now. But it will not take long for it to be."

 

Oh and BTW if you're going to act like a teacher at least learn to spell before posting, even use spell check if you have any problems. It makes you look less bad.

Sorry, non-native English speaker and quickly written posts, this means I sometimes construct a sentence or word closer to my native tongue than English and do not give myself time to proof read. That is all I have to explain for that I hope?