Bounty Hunter Tracer Missle/Heat seeker

[theunwarshed]

Please stop spreading misinformation, as stated above.

 

HSM is doing just fine. My crit for 5k just fine in both PVE and PVP, so if it works for me and the vast majority of other people, then perhaps your math is wrong or you are doing something else wrong.

 

your anecdotal "evidence" doesn't mean jack fella. several of us have tested it on the training dummies using the combat logs and third party parsers. the fact is, HSM is hitting (normalized/averaged out over several rounds of testing) for less than the tooltip range indicates.

[Adelise]

My Expertise adds 19% damage to players.

 

The difference between 2k and 5k is 150%, not 19%.

 

And I was critting Bonethrasher in Nightmare Mode at 5k just two nights ago.

 

Some of you need to just figure out how to play your class, or how to do math, or maybe both.

 

Actually, there is a huge damage reduction on solo debuffs, as stated by the response from the bioware employee. Prior to the 1.2c patch, I was critting 6.5k with HSM on TEST dummies and 7.5k fully buffed. Now I'm only doing 4500-5000 on the same test dummy. My dps over five minutes was reduced from around 1900 to 1500. There was a huge nerf because I did 4500-5000 PRE 1.2 and since then, I've gotten upgrades and have over 2130+ AIM 40% crit 300 power now with over 100 more aim(due to augments).

 

I'm using the parser damage meter, so math isn't really required, it just tells me the overall damage and of each skill, etc.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Adelise

[Adelise]

So you refuse the explain how I am top 2 DPS in WZs and in Ops with my Arsenal Merc?

 

Because, if HSM and our DPS was truly hurt, how would I be able to do the damage I do?

 

I crit HSM 5k still. I don't see how it is broken.

 

This doesn't explain anything. I'm generally the top dps, pre 1.2, after 1.2, and after 1.2c. There is still a huge nerf to heatseeker as it barely registers the tracer missile debuff.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Adelise

[MrSIlverSurfing]

I'm the best geared person on my server and as a Mercenary I have to say this change is truly crippling. I felt descent before they made the change in 1.2c. I have 1300expertiese/24% damage increase against other opponents and my damage is extremely bad 1.2c. A few of us were testing this on each other and guildies were laughing at my damage after 1.2c. The arsenal build is honestly the worst PVP class atm with this change. My guild leader is a Merc as well and it looks like he is hanging up his hat, since he raged about the change and hasn't been on since the 1.2c patch. I have dueled a few classes and its laughable. A champ geared marauder with 800 expertiese dispatched me rather easily with 70% HP remaining. I dont care to be the flavor of the month, but what is the point of geting all the best gear and stil be the low man on the totum pole? Its kind of pointless to play honestly. I do love the TM animation change even though the damage is much less now.

[Adelise]

Okay... for the mentally impaired: what he is talking about is people from every class complaining they got nerfed too hard in the 1.2 patch. They tested everyone's DPS internally, and found an issue with HSM/DR, which they addressed n the 1.2c patch. Now Bounty Hunters and Commandos are claiming that HSM and DR are apparently not working correctly, apart from the fix addressed in the above quote.

 

So far, to my knowledge, they have not responded to accusations that the most recent patch broke those 2 skills. There is no post in the Dev Tracker addressing these complaints.

 

Was that too hard for you, or should I only use single syllable words in the future?

Reread what the dev said "Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills" Unwanted interaction with other skills, aka tracer missile(heat signatures). That means bioware applied a ninja nerf without saying it in the patch notes.

[Aquatine]

Okay... for the mentally impaired: what he is talking about is people from every class complaining they got nerfed too hard in the 1.2 patch. They tested everyone's DPS internally, and found an issue with HSM/DR, which they addressed n the 1.2c patch. Now Bounty Hunters and Commandos are claiming that HSM and DR are apparently not working correctly, apart from the fix addressed in the above quote.

 

So far, to my knowledge, they have not responded to accusations that the most recent patch broke those 2 skills. There is no post in the Dev Tracker addressing these complaints.

 

Was that too hard for you, or should I only use single syllable words in the future?

 

No, they directly responded to our reports about 1.2c breaking HSM(hence the reason the dev post was AFTER 1.2c). They have since even come into this thread and flat out said that HSM is working the way they intended. I guess someone needs single syllable words from now on, but its not us.

[MartyCZE]

The damage of HSM still is increased by 25% when 5 stacks of the debuff are applied, so HSM probably really is WAI now. The damage is lower, so there probably really was a bug that made the skill interact with other buffs or debuffs or whatever. But heat signature still does increase the damage.

 

The ac not being much else than food for other classes in PvP now is an entirely different problem that just begins with what they've just done to HSM.

Edited April 21, 2012 by MartyCZE

[TimoTribal]

Actually, there is a huge damage reduction on solo debuffs, as stated by the response from the bioware employee. Prior to the 1.2c patch, I was critting 6.5k with HSM on TEST dummies and 7.5k fully buffed. Now I'm only doing 4500-5000 on the same test dummy. My dps over five minutes was reduced from around 1900 to 1500. There was a huge nerf because I did 4500-5000 PRE 1.2 and since then, I've gotten upgrades and have over 2130+ AIM 40% crit 300 power now with over 100 more aim(due to augments).

 

 

 

Exactly! I and many other Arsenal spec players (ex-Arsenal as the spec is the worst in game now) have damage which is much lower than 1.1 and yet personally my gear has much improved, a whole suite of augmented gear in addition to starting on gathering black hole gear. PvP crits are not reliable to gauge a skill due to factors such as expertise differences inflating damage done. So I will restate my point, the class was re-balanced with a broken skill affecting the statistics by buffing damage and now that they have fixed the bug the tree is destroyed and needs adjusting to make up for it. Heatseeker was meant to receive a 10% buff yet its around 15%-20% lower than it was in 1.1. It is really so broken it cannot be mistaken.

Edited April 21, 2012 by TimoTribal

[Axien]

My Expertise adds 19% damage to players.

The difference between 2k and 5k is 150%, not 19%.

And I was critting Bonethrasher in Nightmare Mode at 5k just two nights ago.

Some of you need to just figure out how to play your class, or how to do math, or maybe both.

 

I can do math just fine. I can also follow scientific method. Your personal recollection of a couple of fights over the past few days is not proof: that the ability working as intended; that other player's contrary experiences are garbage or lies; or of anyone's ability to 'play their class'.

 

My post was meant to explain how so many factors come into play when calculating both damage dealt and damage received in a given situation that using the argument "I hit some things for 5K." isn't really useful. And generally, the only person discredited by an "L2P" comment is the person making it.

[Calavero]

The damage of HSM still is increased by 25% when 5 stacks of the debuff are applied, so HSM probably really is WAI now. The damage is lower, so there probably really was a bug that made the skill interact with other buffs or debuffs or whatever. But heat signature still does increase the damage.

That's all I really wanted to know, Thanks (sincerely) for posting this information.

[The_Duck]

The damage of HSM still is increased by 25% when 5 stacks of the debuff are applied, so HSM probably really is WAI now. The damage is lower, so there probably really was a bug that made the skill interact with other buffs or debuffs or whatever. But heat signature still does increase the damage.

 

The ac not being much else than food for other classes in PvP now is an entirely different problem that just begins with what they've just done to HSM.

 

so explain to me this math please.

tooltip for heatseeker = 1970 -2106 for me

on a NORMAL level 50 hard mob I apply 5 heat signatures then fire HSM.

damage? 1900 ...

1970 * 1.25 = 2462 (this is the MINIMUM it should do NOT counting the debuffs I have)

are you telling me a NORMAL (ok its a hard mob) has that kind of damage reduction?

you can't seriously expect me to believe that with my 35% armor penetration and a debuff of 20% armor rating

that this normal-hard mob has somehow MORE damage reduction? like 23% after all that? come on.

 

something is WRONG.

now my rail-shot does more non-crit damage than my top-of-the-tree ability? seriously?

[Adelise]

so explain to me this math please.

tooltip for heatseeker = 1970 -2106 for me

on a NORMAL level 50 hard mob I apply 5 heat signatures then fire HSM.

damage? 1900 ...

1970 * 1.25 = 2462 (this is the MINIMUM it should do NOT counting the debuffs I have)

are you telling me a NORMAL (ok its a hard mob) has that kind of damage reduction?

you can't seriously expect me to believe that with my 35% armor penetration and a debuff of 20% armor rating

that this normal-hard mob has somehow MORE damage reduction? like 23% after all that? come on.

 

something is WRONG.

now my rail-shot does more non-crit damage than my top-of-the-tree ability? seriously?

 

I agree, Bioware needs to fix this or I'm going to leave this game. :\

[MartyCZE]

so explain to me this math please.

tooltip for heatseeker = 1970 -2106 for me

on a NORMAL level 50 hard mob I apply 5 heat signatures then fire HSM.

damage? 1900 ...

1970 * 1.25 = 2462 (this is the MINIMUM it should do NOT counting the debuffs I have)

are you telling me a NORMAL (ok its a hard mob) has that kind of damage reduction?

you can't seriously expect me to believe that with my 35% armor penetration and a debuff of 20% armor rating

that this normal-hard mob has somehow MORE damage reduction? like 23% after all that? come on.

 

something is WRONG.

now my rail-shot does more non-crit damage than my top-of-the-tree ability? seriously?

 

I'm not arguing with you that something is wrong. The tooltip damage is higher than the damage the ability does ain reality, that is a fact. However, I was testing this yesterday for a good hour, both on training dummies and in warzones, and I usually did around 1800-1900 damage without any heat signatures and around 2300 with heat signatures applied. This equals to 25% damage increase. I didn't have any buffs applied on me.

 

Right now, the damage is really low, especially for our hardest hitting ability with 15 sec cooldown, and it really sucks being a mercenary now--especially in warzones. But that doesn't change the fact that HSM still benefits from heat signatures and when 5 of them are applied on the target, the damage of HSM is increased by 25%.

 

Armor penetration never had an effect on HSM even pre-1.2. The damage always got increased by roughly 25% after 5 stacks of HS were applied, so if anything, this problem has been there for ever, and only now has become much more apparent because of what they did to our damage.

 

Again, I am not defending BW or saying that the changes they made are OK, because, as has been stated previously by other people, they redesigned this class with the bugged damage of HSM in mind and then increased that damage by another 10%. After 1.2.0c, the increase got decreased to a point where HSM isn't hitting much harder than TCM, and that is a problem. But I strongly believe that HSM is not bugged. It's just that by fixing this bugged ability, they completely crippled our entire DPS output.

[albynomonk]

Did some testing last night... heat sigs are definitely working. It's gotta be armour penetration (as said in the previous post).

[LukeStormstout]

I did more damage with HSM prior to 1.2. I understand they needed to fix the bug that caused too much damage in 1.2c, but it should not being doing less damage now after that fix with better gear. Either the bug that was fixed in 1.2c has been with merc since the start of the game or something is wrong. Have a good day. Edited April 24, 2012 by LukeStormstout

[Bobiefatt]

Someone at Bioware is failing hard.

 

Go to the target boss dummy.

Do 5 tracer missiles, ad rail shot, 9 out of 10 times it just hits around 1500 / 1700

now do 1 tracer missle and then rail shot, indeed it stil hits 1500 / 1700.

 

Im close to full rakata 2020 Aim buffed with +40% crit.

I dropped my 4th set bonus because rail shot isen'tm aking the difference.

 

Tracer, Tracer, Tracer, rapid shots, Tracer, rapid shots, Tracer, HSM, rapid shots,

Tracer, Tracer, Tracer, rapid shots, Tracer, rapid shots, Tracer, HSM, rapid shots,

Tracer, Tracer, Tracer, rapid shots, Tracer, rapid shots, Tracer, HSM, rapid shots,

 

No doubt, Bioware's awnser wil be nerfing Tracer even more with as excuse we have to rotate.

The only prolem is the other skills (unload, powershot) aren't making the difference either.

[rafter]

My Merc is level 49 with crap gear and this is what I got just testing with the dummies. Btw, 1256-1389 is what my tooltip says my damage should be.

 

No Heat Signatures:

Low Hit-1230

High Hit-1331

Top Crit-2403

 

Full Heat Signatures:

Low Hit-1577

High Hit-1685

Top Crit-3050

 

So not only are the numbers in line with the the tooltip, but it's clear that everything is working as it should. Any loss of dps was due to whatever bug they fixed that was giving us unintended extra damage. That's where we need to be looking, and that's what Bioware needs to know. All of this other nonsense needs to end, there is way too much misinformation and outright exaggeration in this thread to have anything meaningful come from it.

 

Edit: Also contrary to the post previous to mine, the Tracer lock buff stacks ARE increasing Rail Shot damage as they should.

Edited April 24, 2012 by rafter

[Verraton]

 

1256-1389 is what my tooltip says my damage should be.

Low Hit-1230

 

uh...

Edited April 24, 2012 by Verraton

[rafter]

uh...

 

Yeah, one hit out of the 50 that I did was below what the tooltip stated, and even it was within 26 damage, the next lowest was 1265. I'd say the damage range is exactly where it's supposed to be.

[Annikus]

I'm not one to QQ...this is definitely broken and I am def not playing a merc anymore. I'd quit the damn game over this kind of crap in any other mmo but I really love SWTOR. Its too bad bioware takes the word or testers over that of players..we obviously "test" this **** every day. So now I let my guild down...now I can't run in my high end ops group. Angry does not describe how I feel. This needs to be fixed.

[LukeStormstout]

Please fix this bug as soon as possible. After maintenance my damage with HSM is still less then my damage was in 1.15e. I have much better gear and stats now then at that point. This makes no logical sense. I have been playing since beta. I have Rakata and War Hero gear. Edited April 24, 2012 by LukeStormstout

[Tel-Rune]

I'm doing some tests on the operations training target MK-5 right now.

I am currently lvl 50, full augmented orange gear with rakata lvl 58 mods/armoring/enhancements/barrels lvl 56 crystals and lvl 50 augments in 8 pieces of gear, black hole ear, matrix cube, columi relic , rakata implant, augmented columi implant and orange bracers and belt with 58 mods/armoring.

 

This test is being done self buffed with Hunters Boon only and high velocity gas cylinder.

 

Ranged Stats

Damage 674-903

Damage 80-149

Bonus Damage 406.3

Accuracy 101.61%

Crit Chance 39.66%

Crit Multiplier 69.74%

 

Tech

Bonus Damage 715.8

Bonus Healing 492.6

Accuracy 111.61%

Crit Chance 40.78%

Crit Multiplier 69.74%

Activation Speed 0.00%

 

my spec is 7-34-0

 

I tested 20 shots of heatseeker with no heat signatures and 20 with 5 heat signatures here are my results

 

no heat sigs

1426

2950

1410

2796

2831

2780

1444

1427

1443

1465

1476

2815

2842

1459

1456

1469

1463

2909

1410

2901

 

5 heat sigs

3811

1877

1936

3887

1905

3751

3870

1938

1893

3888

1929

1860

1888

1926

1903

1923

1892

1943

1837

3900

 

So there is some raw data for you

[Wrestle]

Thanks for the post. Heatseaker is hella weak man. Building up all the heat sigs for that? really? With the gear you have? Try it on something other than a test dummy and its even worse. I'm getting anywhere from 1100-1300 heatseakers on equally geared players. Last post I'm making on SWTOR. Good luck with getting them to fix this. Edited April 24, 2012 by Wrestle

[Goodmonson]

Hello everyone,

 

Here is some information from Georg Zoeller regarding recent changes to Heatseeker Missile, as originally posted in Change to rewards is a step in the right direction, but TTK is still way too short:

 

Feel free to share with us any additional feedback or concerns you have may have regarding this change.

 

Thank you!

 

The concerns that I have is that HSM is no longer worth the heat it costs. I now have one viable rotation and that includes only TM and Unload. TM hits harder and Crits more often the HSM does. HSM barely meets the Minimum hit in the tool tip with 5 stacks of Heat sigs on it. Now our rotation should only include TM, Unload and Railshot and then anything that you can shoot for free with thermal override.

 

It is either broken or made useless. Either way your wish to a BH mercs rotation become more dynamic has completely failed.

 

Power Shot hits harder than HSM now. You wanted to make the rotation more interesting and less repetitive then get rid of the required 5 stacks needed to make rail shot worth while.

 

This change was based on PVE Boss fights and PVP only. The change made on an entire class was based off of 2 situations. One of which shouldn't matter because they are such a small yet vocal portion of the community. I will not be taken to raid tonight because of this. I have to level a Marauder if I ever wish to join in a Raid again.

 

Please change this mechanic of TM and stop basing your quick fixes based upon PVP and boss fights only. If these 2 things are truly that damning to a specific power then the problem lies in its mechanic and not its affect. Have more than 2 powers that can proc unload for example. Get rid of the extra damage from heat sigs for rail shot and just up the damage of rail shot. How about make more than 4 powers actually worth their heat Cost? Anything but at least think about it next time you do this please. Testing would be nice as well.

 

Cheers.

[The_Duck]

I'm not arguing with you that something is wrong. The tooltip damage is higher than the damage the ability does ain reality, that is a fact. However, I was testing this yesterday for a good hour, both on training dummies and in warzones, and I usually did around 1800-1900 damage without any heat signatures and around 2300 with heat signatures applied. This equals to 25% damage increase. I didn't have any buffs applied on me.

 

Right now, the damage is really low, especially for our hardest hitting ability with 15 sec cooldown, and it really sucks being a mercenary now--especially in warzones. But that doesn't change the fact that HSM still benefits from heat signatures and when 5 of them are applied on the target, the damage of HSM is increased by 25%.

 

Armor penetration never had an effect on HSM even pre-1.2. The damage always got increased by roughly 25% after 5 stacks of HS were applied, so if anything, this problem has been there for ever, and only now has become much more apparent because of what they did to our damage.

 

Again, I am not defending BW or saying that the changes they made are OK, because, as has been stated previously by other people, they redesigned this class with the bugged damage of HSM in mind and then increased that damage by another 10%. After 1.2.0c, the increase got decreased to a point where HSM isn't hitting much harder than TCM, and that is a problem. But I strongly believe that HSM is not bugged. It's just that by fixing this bugged ability, they completely crippled our entire DPS output.

 

yes, I agree with your statements.

It may be "working" but the damage is so low for a top-tree ability that it's not use.

at this point, UNLOAD is way better when barrage is proc'd so now why bother using HSM?

we need a reason to use it (ie: POSSIBLE high end damage ... something ...)

 

can we all agree that it is definitely NOT +10% damage based against pre 1.2 ability which 1.2 stated it was buffed?

 

i'd be surprised if someone argued that point ...