Bioware, do you intend to revert TTK to pre 1.2, or is the current TTK intended?

[MrXen]

I already stopped, gear progression is ruined, rewards system is in the toilet. Time to level an alt and see how this pans out and make a decision.

 

I'll agree with that, rewards are bleh now. PvP is the same as ever though.

[JediKalel]

The PVP seems to be imbalanced at the very least... too much focus on killing and not enough on strategy, objective games should be about objectives, not as much mindless killing that disables the objectives *cough* huttball *cough*... half the time the ball carrier gets fileted in about 0.2 seconds and thats with a healer following them:rolleyes:

[Samcuu]

I found your problem, turns out its not the time to kill...

 

Reading comprehension is your friend...use it

 

now being realistic, you obviously have a differing opinion from the majority of the people on here. Thank you for the stats and giving us a different viewpoint we appreciate your tireless breakdown of statistics from the video game. So would you like to continue being a stuck up **** who think's he's god's gift to the internet or have a discussion with me about a game we both obviously like and would like to see survive....??

Edited April 19, 2012 by Samcuu

[Atredes]

Are you guys running on centurion/champion/pre-1.2 moded BM gear? I'm a full BM geared guardian (valor 70) and my survivability hasn't changed while jumping from 1.1.5 to 1.2.

 

The DR's on expertise changed, and I can tell which enemies have no clue about it and run on PvE gear or generally gear with little expertise on it, since they die real fast. On the other hand, stacking at least 1k expertise grands similar survivability as before.

[Cataphractone]

1.76% is not causing "TTK" issues. L2P issues are causing TTK issues.

 

If you want to say that a 6000 damage crit (rare) turning into a 6000 *1.0176 = 6105 damage crit is causing you to die in half the time as before and argue that everyone's gameplay is ruined, then I'm done teaching children and arguing with lesser people.

 

The only people "seeing gameplay quality issues" are people who planned to whine about 1.2 previously (no not a conspiracy theory); these are just the type of people who volunteer for a hiking trip and spend the whole time complaining about hiking.

 

I provided unbiased facts provided by in-game data that anyone anywhere can test themselves, what have you done?

 

Every PvPer on my server disagrees with you, including myself.

 

Who am I going to think is right?

 

My experience in a Huttball today with a group of my friends vs a group of the best pvpers on republic is evidence enough. No one scored because if you had the ball you died in seconds. We both had healers who are good players. Didn't even matter. You died in seconds. Unless you were a marauder of course.

 

You provided evidence that it is only a 1% increase. If that were truly correct, the game wouldn't feel 100% faster to nearly every I PvP with. Perhaps the numbers are just wrong. I know on all my characters that had ranged weapons my listed damage on the character sheet was 8000-9000 instead of 800-900. It was a bug in the UI showing something I knew wasn't true.

 

Also, your 1% is only true if everyone is in the same gear. WIth the increased expertise on Battlemaster gear, but Champion and Centurion were left the same, the gear gap is even bigger. The DR on expertise was lowered to, so that when you have more, the benefit doesn't go down as fast.

 

Having 500 expertise before the patch was good enough. Now someone in full BM will have over 1000.

 

Regardless if it is only 1%, most pvpers I know personally feel the game isn't as fun as it was before 1.2.

[Fifthorizor]

I'm valor 70+ with full BM gear pre 1.2, and let me you tell this... the expertise buff to damage along with the healing nerf that people are dropping WAY faster than before. Some scrub marauder who I could survive before now just ***** me like I'm a defenseless school girl in a dark alley.

[Eranus]

Hello everyone!

Thought I'd contribute a bit aswell. First of all - the math you posted isn't off. You're right. But here's the pincher. While there are alot of Ilummasters... pardon... Battlemasters, not everyone of them had the BM gear and alot of people were still running around in alot of champion gear etc.

Problem is that the gap between champion gear and BM gear has been widened - by about 10% iirc (though I could be wrong, seeing that I am posting from my laptop and can't double check).

Now they COULD in theory buy recruit gear with more expertise - but than again they'd lose set-boni, endurance + primay stat and also a bit of secondary stats to expertise.

Thus there is the feeling of dieing quicker for them. While my project hits for about the same dmg as before on people with equal gear to me (playing a kin shad in dps gear atm) I can crit up to 4.8-5k on targets with outdated gear. Thus there is the feeling of an increased "speed".

To those who complain about a too long (or too short) time to kill... try playing against a good geared and skilled scoundrel healer + tank combo who both know what they are doing. Record for me so far: Stopping 4 people together with a scoundrel healer for 2 minutes and 18 seconds. Than the last of the 4 died.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Eranus

[Halefthaut]

Marauder drops you not because of Expertise changes, but their 1.2 buffs

[TBurglar]

The "new" TTK is fine. Personally I don't feel like it's changed much. The TTK (of a standard dps) against a same geared person not receiving heals is basically the exact same as it was before.

 

I bet most of the QQ is from healers who think they should be able to tank 3 DPS while keeping their team topped off.

[Atredes]

I'm valor 70+ with full BM gear pre 1.2, and let me you tell this... the expertise buff to damage along with the healing nerf that people are dropping WAY faster than before. Some scrub marauder who I could survive before now just ***** me like I'm a defenseless school girl in a dark alley.

 

whats your expertise? Did you swap mods prior to 1.2?

 

Generally speaking, people need to understand two things:

a) there is a new gear progression path, recruit -> BM -> war hero.

b) pve and pvp gear is finally differentiated, through the expertise DR change. If you don't have allot of expertise (need at least 1k), get some recruit gear temporarily, while you grind for missing BM gear.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Atredes

[floriwie]

Are we all agree the main reason BW made the change to prevent people using the PVP gear for PVE..so they increase the effect of expertise without significantly reducing the main stats and nerf the mitigation and healing (that is part puzzles me, if they want to reduce the effect of healing ok by why mitigation)...

 

Everybody that I know from pre 1.2 was loving the swtor PVP while TTK was so different then the other games....

 

I really don't understand the changes, if somebody want to balance an equation, u don't want to change the all variables at once, u make an adjustment to one and then u look for effects. If u change several variables at once men will only get such a chaos....

 

And I also have a feeling that by nerfing comms and credits from the PVP, BW want to say that they don't want us to level with PVP.....which I think sucks......

[AKfourtyseven]

Despite what the maths may indicate, the difference in damage really isnt as small as 1.78% or whatever else people would like to tell you. With over 1100 expertise i am getting hit by other BMs for numbers that were simply not possible before 1.2 and this includes classes i could laugh at previously.

 

I would guess the way expertise damage is coded, it happens before any other bonus, which means the final outcome is alot higher.

 

Either way, those of us who actually play the game know we are killing people faster and dying faster than before. When its BM Vs BM the difference isnt that much faster, but it most definitely is there. If its BM Vs non-BM?

 

Super quick, like BM Vs no pvp gear pre-1.2...

[khaoimon]

I'll agree with that, rewards are bleh now. PvP is the same as ever though.

 

TTK has changed greatly for pre-50 and 50. I leveled a character 10-50 through pvp and have been re-rolling the same class at the request of a high end pvp guild on the opposite faction in the same way. I have checked the levels of my opponents to confirm that they are not high enough to be taking expertise mods out of 46 weapons (as I had done previously). There are a great many factors outside of expertise and I would agree that some of it could be more players are studying their class (meaning it is not a dev caused issue). Regardless of the cause, it is clear that the TTK has changed (not the time to die, the time to kill. This is not qq about dying to quickly. My opponents die faster than they did before and I do as well).

 

Personally, I'm not saying it is better or worse, I will adapt either way. I simply would like to know if it is an intended change or an 'oops,' as is the title of this thread. You wont find my posts in any other pvp damage related threads, because I don't care. I would simply like to know if in a hotfix or the patch the devs are going to change their mind. It effects my gear and spec choices which takes time, credits, and theory-crafting.

 

p.s Obviously pre 50 pvp does not matter, the point is made simply to eliminate the majority of expertise in terms of TTK.

Edited April 19, 2012 by khaoimon

[Mrcheezle]

Are we all agree the main reason BW made the change to prevent people using the PVP gear for PVE..so they increase the effect of expertise without significantly reducing the main stats and nerf the mitigation and healing (that is part puzzles me, if they want to reduce the effect of healing ok by why mitigation)...

 

Everybody that I know from pre 1.2 was loving the swtor PVP while TTK was so different then the other games....

 

I really don't understand the changes, if somebody want to balance an equation, u don't want to change the all variables at once, u make an adjustment to one and then u look for effects. If u change several variables at once men will only get such a chaos....

 

And I also have a feeling that by nerfing comms and credits from the PVP, BW want to say that they don't want us to level with PVP.....which I think sucks......

 

What is this PvE you speak of ? Also, what and where is this PvP ? Lets be honest the PvE content in SWTOR is a joke and there is no open world pvp. This game is currently a non rated 8v8 game of instances (wzs). Nothing more, nothing less.

 

GW2....... Your our only hope.,,,

[nailer_]

Dear Bioware, do you intend to revert TTK (Time to Kill) in PvP to pre 1.2, or is the current TTK in PvP the intended design and it is here to stay. I would like to know, that is all.

 

I would like to know, too.

[PloGreen]

lol what game have you been playing chief? since day one sorcs could do there rediculous stun that dosent break on damage and id be dead before it was up.......always been this way.

 

What stun is that, the 4 second one? How op..

 

5

[Tyfonen]

Dear Bioware, do you intend to revert TTK (Time to Kill) in PvP to pre 1.2, or is the current TTK in PvP the intended design and it is here to stay. I would like to know, that is all.

 

Need to know this soon before I´v tired of the game completly and am nowere about to hear an awnser.

 

What stun is that, the 4 second one? How op..

 

5

 

With the 1.2 changes and the idioticly short TTK they R yes. Many tools of classes R not balanced towards this TTK but that´s not your fault and u should not be "nerfed" for it. BW just needs to sort out the big fat mess they made of things with all the sweaping changes. IF they actually can.

 

Marauder drops you not because of Expertise changes, but their 1.2 buffs

 

EVERY change in this mess called 1.2 compounds in to the situation pvp is in right now.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Tyfonen

[me_unknown]

Now taking 983.1 damage as your 100% baseline...the DPS "buff" (in actuality fixing) is 1.76%.

 

 

PAY ATTENTION HERE: the only change to pvp "TTK" is damage affected by expertise has caused damage taken by players to increase by: 1.76% that is it. The reason? Because they wanted mitigation and damage to cancel each other out, not have one outweigh the other as was previously.

 

 

 

 

Quit crying about 1.76% and claiming its "insta gibb."

 

basically all you say is correct. but you miss one important point: the TTK decreased A LOT. of course this implies that the reason for this is not expertise. i actually was saying this already after 1.2 was released. not expertise is the problem. there changed somethig else along.

 

the difference in expertise does not explain the decreased survivability overall. i was before patch 1.2 equiped with near the top of the expertise limit and i am it now too. but i see my hp dropping around double as fast, being specced with mostly damage mittigating talents.

[DarthPolarBear]

Someone from Bioware, at the very least out of respect for their paying customers, answer this question. If PVP is working as intended, or are their changes in the pipeline, to make PVP fun once more for the majority.

 

We want to know so we can make an informed decision as to how we spend our leisure time and do we wish to continue funding a game we no longer enjoy.

 

I have zero interest in the PVE endgame aspects of the game, I am playing for PVP fun and frolics, yes I like to roll lots of alts and enjoy their levelling on some of the planets, but in the main I am here to PVP, hence I would like to know if SWTOR will continue to provide for my style of gameplay or not. I will not be forced to do PVE, aka something I don't enjoy, in order to fund my PVP habit.

 

This is not a threat to cancel my subscription by the way, merely a statement of intent. Anyone who pays to do something they do not enjoy is a fool and I for one, will not allow a software company to continue to make a fool out of me.

 

 

Totally agree with you! i think you have hit the nail on the head with everything you have said there still doubt we'll get a response.

[Kaarsa]

basically all you say is correct. but you miss one important point: the TTK decreased A LOT. of course this implies that the reason for this is not expertise. i actually was saying this already after 1.2 was released. not expertise is the problem. there changed somethig else along.

 

the difference in expertise does not explain the decreased survivability overall. i was before patch 1.2 equiped with near the top of the expertise limit and i am it now too. but i see my hp dropping around double as fast, being specced with mostly damage mittigating talents.

 

Reason of observed by some reduced TTK IS expertise, to be precise LACK of said stat on people dropping fast. Remodded BM gear - shorter TTK. Mix of PVP/PVE gear - shorter TTK. Old cent/champ - shorter TTK.

 

This is problem you see - lack of adjustment to new rules. In few weeks, when everyone and their mother will be in new BM/WH gear TTK will go back to old values.

 

Thing is, most thread in pvp forum are whine/QQ. Those perils of actual useful info are very difficult to find and most people seem to not care enough to search for them. Something is not working as it used to/user wants it to? Go to pvp forum to start qq/whine thread instead looking for reason why it is working now different than before and what should be done to taka advantage of it.

[me_unknown]

Reason of observed by some reduced TTK IS expertise, to be precise LACK of said stat on people dropping fast. Remodded BM gear - shorter TTK. Mix of PVP/PVE gear - shorter TTK. Old cent/champ - shorter TTK.

 

This is problem you see - lack of adjustment to new rules. In few weeks, when everyone and their mother will be in new BM/WH gear TTK will go back to old values. .

 

NO! i said it already and i say it again: i was before 1.2 very close to the euquip limit for expertise and i am it now too. i have nearly 1100 expertise! i do not have my gear remodded. how can it be due to expertise that I DIE nearly twice as fast when my opponents do not have more expertise than me?

 

the decreased TKK has NOTHING to do with the expertise change. though, of course for those people that are low on expertise it greatly contributes to this observation but this reduced TKK is still greratly observable for people with high amount of expertise!

 

edit: to point that out: i AM IN FULL BM GEAR, the NEW BM GEAR!

Edited April 19, 2012 by me_unknown

[Timadan]

If by 180 you mean the fixing of mitigation on the expertise mitigation stat.

 

After 1.2.

1000 damage outgoing affected by 22% expertise = 1220 damage

 

1220 damage incoming affected by 18% expertise = 1000.4 damage

 

 

Notice the green numbers being equal.

 

Before 1.2

 

1000 damage outgoing affected by 13% expertise = 1130 damage

 

1130 damage incoming affected by 13% expertise = 983.1 damage

 

Notice the yellow numbers not being equivalent.

 

Now taking 983.1 damage as your 100% baseline...the DPS "buff" (in actuality fixing) is 1.76%.

 

 

PAY ATTENTION HERE: the only change to pvp "TTK" is damage affected by expertise has caused damage taken by players to increase by: 1.76% that is it. The reason? Because they wanted mitigation and damage to cancel each other out, not have one outweigh the other as was previously.

 

 

 

 

Quit crying about 1.76% and claiming its "insta gibb."

 

 

A supposed 5000 crit now hits for 5088 damage in 1.2. I highly doubt that "massive" increase is making anyone die faster.

 

The math is spot on and exactly how expertise works, however the above formula is missing a key factor. That being the total expertise across one team vs another team.

 

Expertise is a crap stat, it's equivalent has never worked in a game and never will. The stats should be very close between top tier pve gear and top tier pvp gear there by allowing every player (paying customer) to enjoy the game as they see fit. People who primarily pvp can do the hardest end game pve content in the gear they chose to grind out, and people who primarily pve can compete in pvp with the gear they chose to grind out.

 

As it stands the average player has to grind out two sets of gear one for pvp and one for pve. This clearly gives a pvp advantage to those who only pvp.

 

One would think that these pvp only people would be on board with this system as it clearly gives them more competition in the que. The truth is though most of the defenders of 'expertise' would rather have the advantage given them than compete on a level playing field.

[SneiK]

WRONG! Its a compound reason why TTK is so f*****. Healings been nerfed in WZs, while damage output has been increased.

 

AND what about the insane buffs to marauders/juggernauts. They weren't there pre-1.2

 

I, for one, did not enjoy the pre 1.2 -Who has the most healers wins-. Because heals could outheal dps too much, the side with most healers won.

 

All the QQ is because healers can no longer carry their teams. If you want longer TKK, then they just need to buff peoples overall health/nerf both dmg and healing, because now the DPS/Heals are EQUAL.

 

P.S. an operative healer can still outheal anything 1v1 and can hold out a long time 2v1, so I don't see a problem, maybe buff the other two healers then. You healers now need your teammates to properly protect you; blame them, not BW.

[SneiK]

The math is spot on and exactly how expertise works, however the above formula is missing a key factor. That being the total expertise across one team vs another team.

 

Expertise is a crap stat, it's equivalent has never worked in a game and never will. The stats should be very close between top tier pve gear and top tier pvp gear there by allowing every player (paying customer) to enjoy the game as they see fit. People who primarily pvp can do the hardest end game pve content in the gear they chose to grind out, and people who primarily pve can compete in pvp with the gear they chose to grind out.

 

As it stands the average player has to grind out two sets of gear one for pvp and one for pve. This clearly gives a pvp advantage to those who only pvp.

 

One would think that these pvp only people would be on board with this system as it clearly gives them more competition in the que. The truth is though most of the defenders of 'expertise' would rather have the advantage given them than compete on a level playing field.

 

True, I wouldn't mind an equal playing field against PvE/PvP players as obviously PvP players have the advantage there. Because they PvP! (And the PvE knows the PvE). But BW clearly stated that they wanted to separate the gear progression of these two...

 

But you are forgetting that pre 1.2 (and I haven't done enough testing if BW kept their word about this in 1.2), the best gear combination was BM and Rakata gear. PvP gear can easily be soloed, whereas Rakata requires a good 8 man and lots of time (Cannot be farmed=PvP gear easier to get, PvE harder).

 

So, pre 1.2 the PvE players actually had the ADVANTAGE in gear which was NOT cool...

Edited April 19, 2012 by SneiK

[pinchbottom]

For all those crying about 1.2, and those crying about the people crying about 1.2, there are other threads.

 

Whether you like the changes 1.2 brought, or you hate them you should be interested in biowares answer to the original posters question which means you should take all the QQ about how you can no longer play your healer post 1.2 or how pre 1.2 your guardian was getting killed by sorcs during a 4 second stun (that one especially made me lol) before people start calling other people bads or noobs or whatever and the thread gets deleted without anyone getting an answer to the simple question:

 

Is bioware going to go back to pre 1.2 TTK, or keep it how it is?

 

Because no matter which you prefer, we'd all like the answer and I'm pretty sure they're looking for any excuse to lock this thread and not give us one.