I'm pvping about 60% less. Is this really what you wanted?

[Rachiia]

It's been beaten to death and I hope the devs are listening, but I'm starting a new thread, anyway.

 

I used to pvp every time I logged. Sometimes I'd log and do nothing but pvp. I'd pvp with friends, in groups and I'd pug. Since I pvped a lot, I ended up pugging a lot. Pugs lose a lot, but I didn't care. It was fun to pvp and I knew I was working on closing the gear gap. I'm still not in full BM gear, only a couple of pieces, but that's because I play alts a lot.

 

PvP really sucks, now. I'm pvping at least 60% less than I used to.

 

Here's basically the result of 1.2 pvp "enhancements":

1. You've created a huge reward divide. The result is you've made it much more difficult to bridge that divide and gear up since the loser rewards are frankly paltry.

2. When people start losing, they leave.

3. If people start losing too much, they'll stop pvping for a while. Maybe they log, too. I know I do.

4. People bail when their team gets behind.

5. People leave rather than backfill a losing warzone.

6. Sub 50s pvp can be extremely unrewarding, so unrewarding it's barely worth pvping, resulting in new players getting a terrible impression of SWTOR pvp. That means fewer new subscriptions. Congratulations, BioWare! You're killing the game. (BTW, this really reminds me of the kind of idiocy I'd see at Warhammer. I really hope you don't have the BioWare-Mythic team working on your PvP enhancements.)

 

All that adds up to a whole lot less PvPing from everyone. Is this really what you wanted?

 

There might have been some issues with PvP rewards prior to 1.2, but what you've gone to is far worse. As some people have indicated, this might have come about to cater to "hardcore" pvp guilds. I doubt even they're happy with this system. However, if this is the way you want to go for ranked warzones, you need a different reward system for more casual pvpers. You know, the other 80% of your swtor subscribers.

 

If you cater to the hardcore, you'll end up only with the hardcore playing.

 

This is just getting absurd. Please fix the rewards for warzones. I was pretty happy with the 4 medals system prior to 1.2. I'm still not sure why this drastic change came about.

 

(FYI, I still hate expertise and recommend getting rid of it. It causes much of the gear gap problem. The game would be better off without it.)

[Parali]

Greetings,

 

We heard from many members of our community about the changes to warzones rewards in Game Update 1.2. As a result of player feedback, we have made some adjustments. Here is what Lead Game Designer Daniel Erickson had to say about the subject in his "On Warzones Scoring and Rewards" thread:

 

Hey folks,

 

Some follow up news from observations of play and feedback over the weekend. In the next couple of days we will be deploying a small patch that will address the following issues:

 

• As discussed, minimum medals to gain rewards will go from 3 to 1 to better reward those who are backfilled.
  
• Warzones will once again be shutting down when population imbalance is detected. This was an unfortunate bug where a feature of Ranked Warzones (in full team play it is not desirable to let one team end the game prematurely by quitting out) was incorrectly implemented globally.
  
• Completion of Warzones will gain a large increase in the percentage of rewards it represents, so while scoring is still the primary driver, you will cease to see games that give no rewards if players have a minimum of 1 medal earned.
  
• We are extending the time we wait for a full team of eight to better make sure Warzones pop with complete teams.

 

A huge thank you to everyone who played this weekend and provided valuable feedback and analysis.

 

 

Daniel also gives a little more background in the OP. We hope this sheds some light on the matter. Thank you for your feedback!

 

[Rachiia]

Greetings,

 

We heard from many members of our community about the changes to warzones rewards in Game Update 1.2. As a result of player feedback, we have made some adjustments. Here is what Lead Game Designer Daniel Erickson had to say about the subject in his "On Warzones Scoring and Rewards" thread:

 

 

 

 

Daniel also gives a little more background in the OP. We hope this sheds some light on the matter. Thank you for your feedback!

 

 

I've read that thread. You have to do more than reduce the minimum medals required to qualify - you have to up the rewards for losing across the board. The fact that you think going to 1 medal is going to fix this, indicates you still don't quite get it. It's not about the medals; it's about making it worth your time to play pvp. The one medal minimum qualifiers is a step in the right direction, but you now have a lot more issues to address.

 

Are you going to raise rewards for losing across the board? More xp, more comms, more creds? I don't really see any indication in Daniel's posts that this is going to happen.

 

I was in a level 50 warzone the other night, I got 6 medals (I'm a GS. I don't heal or guard anyone. The whole medal system favors tanks, fyi.). But I put out a lot of damage, so I think I was helping. However, I got 35 comms in a losing effort!

 

Just lowering the medal threshold isn't going to fix the core issue of closing the medal gap.

 

Thank you for your reply, though. I'm glad to see you're reading these.

[sharkfinsix]

IYou're killing the game. (BTW, this really reminds me of the kind of idiocy I'd see at Warhammer. I really hope you don't have the BioWare-Mythic team working on your PvP enhancements.)

 

All that adds up to a whole lot less PvPing from everyone. Is this really what you wanted?

 

 

That's exactly what i started to think...the people behind all the warhammer pvp changes must have found a new job with TOR pvp

[irdc]

That's exactly what i started to think...the people behind all the warhammer pvp changes must have found a new job with TOR pvp

 

At least WAR had collision detection. And it launched with seven or eight warzones.

[krossfade]

Im pvping 100% less now that ive cacelled my account, im not gonna pay money to these guys again until they fix there pvp, 1st step fire anyone that had anything to do with warhammer, those devs destroyed warhammer and rift and now tor, 3 strikes u are out.

[Jatne]

I've read that thread. You have to do more than reduce the minimum medals required to qualify - you have to up the rewards for losing across the board. The fact that you think going to 1 medal is going to fix this, indicates you still don't quite get it. It's not about the medals; it's about making it worth your time to play pvp. The one medal minimum qualifiers is a step in the right direction, but you now have a lot more issues to address.

 

Are you going to raise rewards for losing across the board? More xp, more comms, more creds? I don't really see any indication in Daniel's posts that this is going to happen.

 

I was in a level 50 warzone the other night, I got 6 medals (I'm a GS. I don't heal or guard anyone. The whole medal system favors tanks, fyi.). But I put out a lot of damage, so I think I was helping. However, I got 35 comms in a losing effort!

 

Just lowering the medal threshold isn't going to fix the core issue of closing the medal gap.

 

Thank you for your reply, though. I'm glad to see you're reading these.

 

 

 

In PvP victory is it's own reward. Kiilling, no slaughtering someones creation IS the reward of PvP. The theory behind PvP initially was that Players e.g. (for the most part) human beings are more challenging to beat than non-player characters.

 

The whole I MUST BE REWARDED FOR DOING EVERYTHING OR ELSE IT WAS NOT FUN + WASTE OF MY TIME is a direct hande-me-down from the brainwashed WoW generation.

 

You don't go to sports day, finish last in the 100m sprint and then ask why you didn't get a trophy. Or maybe you do?

 

If you need rewards in order to have fun PvPing, you are not a PvPer. Period.

[Malg]

That's a load.

 

When the match starts at 5v8 and you aren't even given a chance - you can't "pvp for it being its own reward". Their system is jacked in multiple ways.

 

Also, how many PVErs do raids/operations just to kill the boss, and would continue to without any loot or anything? Zero. That's not how these games work.

[Daayz]

no clue why they hired the same fails from warhammer to lead pvp and class balance here.

[Rachiia]

In PvP victory is it's own reward. Kiilling, no slaughtering someones creation IS the reward of PvP. The theory behind PvP initially was that Players e.g. (for the most part) human beings are more challenging to beat than non-player characters.

 

The whole I MUST BE REWARDED FOR DOING EVERYTHING OR ELSE IT WAS NOT FUN + WASTE OF MY TIME is a direct hande-me-down from the brainwashed WoW generation.

 

You don't go to sports day, finish last in the 100m sprint and then ask why you didn't get a trophy. Or maybe you do?

 

If you need rewards in order to have fun PvPing, you are not a PvPer. Period.

 

Guess I'm not a PvPer. And I guess when about 50-60% of the population of this game is gone because PvP sucks, you'll be happier. Hope you and the "PvPers" have lots of fun, then.

[unixbomber]

In PvP victory is it's own reward. Kiilling, no slaughtering someones creation IS the reward of PvP. The theory behind PvP initially was that Players e.g. (for the most part) human beings are more challenging to beat than non-player characters.

 

The whole I MUST BE REWARDED FOR DOING EVERYTHING OR ELSE IT WAS NOT FUN + WASTE OF MY TIME is a direct hande-me-down from the brainwashed WoW generation.

 

You don't go to sports day, finish last in the 100m sprint and then ask why you didn't get a trophy. Or maybe you do?

 

If you need rewards in order to have fun PvPing, you are not a PvPer. Period.

 

"Real" pvpers also want to ensure they have enough money to buy consumables, pulls mods out of gear, craft or buy augments, etc without having to pve. There's nothing wrong with rewarding effort so long as winning nets a better return.

[Valhalyn]

If you really think that the PVP population is that large....

 

 

Not sure if trolling...

[Leszy]

In PvP victory is it's own reward. Kiilling, no slaughtering someones creation IS the reward of PvP. The theory behind PvP initially was that Players e.g. (for the most part) human beings are more challenging to beat than non-player characters.

 

The whole I MUST BE REWARDED FOR DOING EVERYTHING OR ELSE IT WAS NOT FUN + WASTE OF MY TIME is a direct hande-me-down from the brainwashed WoW generation.

 

You don't go to sports day, finish last in the 100m sprint and then ask why you didn't get a trophy. Or maybe you do?

 

If you need rewards in order to have fun PvPing, you are not a PvPer. Period.

 

David Beckham gets same pay no matter if hes team loses 0-10 or wins 5-4. Hell, he gets the same pay even if hes just sitting on the change bench whole 90mins.

 

I need PvP to give rewarsds even if you loose. Not for my sake, but because otherwise loosing team dosent even try to fight back. Thats not fun at all.

[BBCHiyde]

When I read this subject line, it occurred to me that my WZ play has dropped quite a bit too.

 

For me it isn't so much about the reward changes (though I agree more balance is needed), I think it is more about the way its impacted player behavior:

 

While I mainly pug, I've made many PvP friends that I enjoyed playing with or against and a surprising number left the game. I'm hoping they'll be back as the game evolves.

 

Leaving is rampant ("hmm..don't like this group", "other team scored time to leave", "no reason to backfill I won't get anything anyway") . Even those who stay seem to give up sooner.

 

There's a noticeable drop in healers. (I've quit playing mine - at least for now - and fully acknowledge I wasn't an awesome healer since I found pre 1.2 challenging to be a Sage healer in)

 

People seem to give up trying to win the match sooner than before...and just medal hunt. For me, the most rewarding PvP is the really close match that you don't know up until the final seconds who will win. Those were rare pre-1.2 and (in part due to the reasons above) are even rarer now.

 

I don't pretend to have great answers to offer - and I'm not leaving SWTOR. But their metrics should confirm what many are experiencing. Every MMO evolves and I still have much hope for this one.

 

TL;DR Yeah I'm doing WZ's less these days too. Hopefully some tweaks will perk things up for myself and others.

Edited April 18, 2012 by BBCHiyde

[Dissentus]

I find myself playing alts more and more everyday, because at that level I don't care about leveling fast or gear or tons of credits for optimizing gear and what have you. I don't have to worry about min/maxed premades, or having lesser gear or lesser geared players ruining chances. Level 50 now feels like an exercise in torture with all the changes.

[Gruntacus]

I have no idea why people whom are so fed up with this shambles BW proudly call PVP continue thier subs.

 

BW do not listen to you, they have their own agenda, the PVP devs are clapping themselves on the back atm becaue they added a 'new' and I term that loosely WZ. (FYI Devs - a rehash of Turrets is not a new WZ !).

 

Talk with your wallets people, I did and have unsubbed. They ask you to complete a questionnaire when you do, put you reasoning in there. Im willing to bet that it is this that they are 'listening' to rather than forum posts as my server PVP is pretty much dying out now what with the total imbalance in classes and factions its more frustration than fun.

 

But hey ho, GW , D3 and Tera are just around the corner - good luck with your soon to be FTP BW, you soooo deserve it.

[Kahldor]

Greetings,

 

We heard from many members of our community about the changes to warzones rewards in Game Update 1.2. As a result of player feedback, we have made some adjustments. Here is what Lead Game Designer Daniel Erickson had to say about the subject in his "On Warzones Scoring and Rewards" thread:

 

 

 

 

Daniel also gives a little more background in the OP. We hope this sheds some light on the matter. Thank you for your feedback!

 

 

This is a weak attempt at solving a bigger problem. A problem you created with revamping a good system that needed certain tweaks for Rated WZs. A bandaid like this will not fix the festering wound that you created with 1.2... sorry... And yes, I PvP about 95% less now. I used to spend 80% of my time PvPing. Bravo BW Bravo.

[mguitar]

I've read that thread. You have to do more than reduce the minimum medals required to qualify - you have to up the rewards for losing across the board. The fact that you think going to 1 medal is going to fix this, indicates you still don't quite get it. It's not about the medals; it's about making it worth your time to play pvp. The one medal minimum qualifiers is a step in the right direction, but you now have a lot more issues to address.

 

Are you going to raise rewards for losing across the board? More xp, more comms, more creds? I don't really see any indication in Daniel's posts that this is going to happen.

 

I was in a level 50 warzone the other night, I got 6 medals (I'm a GS. I don't heal or guard anyone. The whole medal system favors tanks, fyi.). But I put out a lot of damage, so I think I was helping. However, I got 35 comms in a losing effort!

 

Just lowering the medal threshold isn't going to fix the core issue of closing the medal gap.

 

Thank you for your reply, though. I'm glad to see you're reading these.

 

Well said. I used to pvp with all of my characters as I leveled (have two 50's and 6 in their 20-30s) as often as solo queue would pop, now it's nothing more than a waste of time. I average 12-16 medals per match even playing a pure DPS class like my sniper, so that is not the problem. The problem is that you have to rely on other people to make your effort worth your time, which obviously isn't working. The other day in Voidstar I marked the healers and asked everyone to please burn them first, yet every single person thought it was a better idea to keep attacking the DPS and completely ignore the healers standing next to them spamming heals. Leveling while hitting warzones used to be fun.. now it's nothing more than a grueling chore and a waste of my time. Since 1.2, despite the new warzone that I love, I find myself queueing less and less. What's the point?

[BBCHiyde]

Actually I like the new WZ. It's my favorite functionally and visually, even if it is CW 2.0.

 

I'm no fanboy but it seems just as many ppl say "BW never listens" as say "BW listens and that's why it sucks now". Alot of the changes we've seen (rightly or wrongly) were things clamored for on the forums.

 

It seems like alot of the wild swings would be positively impacted by a more robust PTS. LOTRO, for one, does a nice job with character copy or instant leveling up on Test (Eyes & Guard Tavern).

 

One thing for sure with MMOs is they are always going to change. If you aren't happy, try to provide constructive non-raging feedback. "Voting with your wallet" also works if aren't you enjoying the game and don't believe the direction will improve.

 

I have no idea why people whom are so fed up with this shambles BW proudly call PVP continue thier subs.

 

BW do not listen to you, they have their own agenda, the PVP devs are clapping themselves on the back atm becaue they added a 'new' and I term that loosely WZ. (FYI Devs - a rehash of Turrets is not a new WZ !).

 

Talk with your wallets people, I did and have unsubbed. They ask you to complete a questionnaire when you do, put you reasoning in there. Im willing to bet that it is this that they are 'listening' to rather than forum posts as my server PVP is pretty much dying out now what with the total imbalance in classes and factions its more frustration than fun.

 

But hey ho, GW , D3 and Tera are just around the corner - good luck with your soon to be FTP BW, you soooo deserve it.

Edited April 18, 2012 by BBCHiyde

[eHug]

If you really think that the PVP population is that large....

 

 

Not sure if trolling...

 

You seem not have logged in once, otherwise i can't explain how you missed that about half of the servers are marked PVP. Let me tell you that's not a smart idea to project your own preference for boring easy PVE that contains no surprises onto everyone. That rarely works.

[sirbobert]

All that adds up to a whole lot less PvPing from everyone. Is this really what you wanted?

 

As long as you keep sending $15 a month, I doubt they care if you log onto your account.

 

These posts are good because it allows the OP to get something off their chest, but in the end, $$$$ talks.

 

If you decide to unsub, I ask one favor: List your reason as, "because I was getting stunlocked by a team of operatives." Because according to Jorge, that's the REAL[sic] issue. And if you tell them that, they can at least say, "Hey, look, see! We told you people were complaining about that!"

[Rachiia]

As long as you keep sending $15 a month, I doubt they care if you log onto your account.

 

These posts are good because it allows the OP to get something off their chest, but in the end, $$$$ talks.

 

If you decide to unsub, I ask one favor: List your reason as, "because I was getting stunlocked by a team of operatives." Because according to Jorge, that's the REAL[sic] issue. And if you tell them that, they can at least say, "Hey, look, see! We told you people were complaining about that!"

 

FYI, I mentioned this in another thread: I changed my sub to month-to-month. I was subbed for six month at a time. That's how excited and happy I was about this game. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has reduced or cancelled their subs due to this fiasco.

 

I'm not going to cancel just because I have my nerdrage on, but I will if this is an on-going problem when my sub comes up for renewal, again. It's not like I won't have options, with The Secret World, Diablo and GW2 coming.

[mSum]

• I want pre-patch credtis and experience for WZs so I can level my alts the way I choose.
  
• I REALLY want cross-server PvP!
  

 

Neither of these are address in your upcoming patch.

 

PS your new forum doesn't display bullets.

Edited April 18, 2012 by mSum

[Terrestrial]

Kind of reminds me of dropping bad stocks. You don't keep sinking money into a bad investment.

 

What really stuns me is how remarkable the IP is and how they are squandering it faster than SOE did with SWG. The good will burn rate is EXTRAORDINARY.

 

Bioware really doesn't appear to know how to stop the bleeding.

[TheronFett]

That's a load.

 

When the match starts at 5v8 and you aren't even given a chance - you can't "pvp for it being its own reward". Their system is jacked in multiple ways.

 

Also, how many PVErs do raids/operations just to kill the boss, and would continue to without any loot or anything? Zero. That's not how these games work.

 

QFT ^

 

A player can go on an 8 man raid, invest 2-3 hours, and come out with multiple gear tokens at the end. If a player is in a large enough guild that can do these regularly, even do 16 man raids, he could be fully Rakata geared within a week. And earn a lot of money doing it, especially with the daily missions.

 

PvP? Not so much. Invest 2-3 hours in PvPing these days and see what you come out with at the other end. No money. A handful of tokens towards the now ridiculous gear cost. I'm not saying they should hand out gear like candy, but comparatively, the gear gap widened considerably with 1.2 in favor of the PvEers.

 

Lowering the medal requirement does nothing to fix the problems with PvP. Zero.