is this right? QQ about sith operatives

[Sworne]

I'll try ... I never said it was about a good player beating a bad or average player. It's about the mechanics of the class and it's potential. No other class can open from stealth with high burst, heal, stealth and reopen with high burst to finish.

 

Are you an operative? How much damage can you do on your opening rotation? 7k? 8K? 10K? Now, you can stealth and repeat that opener, am I right? All of this in less than 10 seconds on a single target. So, the first KD, stun, hit hit, stealth, KD finish.

 

What am I missing?

 

I'm a Jugg primary, leveling up an Op for fun but I'm only at level 38. I just picked up the HS, but I don't have Acid Blade to augment it yet, so my hits in the 10-49 bgs are only around 2.2-2.6k on crits. Still a large chunk in that BG, though.

 

So I can only come at this from a theoretical standpoint, and experience of the mechanics if not the top end damage potential. I know for a fact that an Op who is restealthing to begin his opener again must really want to kill you or knows there's no one else around to attack him after he finishes you off, because that's my only escape mechanism out of a bad situation, and it's on a (talented) 2 min CD.

 

The heal is negligible (however helpful) over a 10 second span, it really takes the full duration to matter in a fight.

 

So yes, an operative can do what you said above, but from my experience the second stun fills your resolve, meaning it's only 5.5 seconds at most that you remain stun locked. My experience is purely anecdotal since I don't have combat logs, so I'm not sure if there's another player using a CC which is adding to the resolve, but I do a lot of 'thinning the herd' and pick off the players at the edge of the scrum 1v1 and 100% of the time I see resolve go up as soon as I throw my stun.

 

For arguments sake, let's say it doesn't fill your resolve. And they do restealth and open again. That 3rd 1.5 second knock down will fill you. And that's still only 7 seconds of stun lock.

[Mormoz]

We have excellent operatives and scoundrels. It doesn't matter how good they are, they cannot keep anybody stunned more than 5 secs (3gcds). And none of them can kill you in those 5 secs, or even the 5 following seconds, unless you're just bad.

 

There is a difference between being bad and being undergeared...because that's what you are when an Operative kills you in his starter stunlock. There's absolutely no skill involved.

 

Also, Operatives don't pick out always targets on full hp. Plenty of occasions when they'll attack you when you're nearly dead, or even on 50% hp and then they DO have a pretty good chance in killing you in their stunlock.

 

If concentrated by your team they are nothing. But here's where Operatives excel at: picking off lonely targets. And even the best teamplayer will find himself in some occasions that he is alone.

 

Operatives/Scoundrels can be countered, but not as easily as other classes. Of all classes, I find the Operative/Scoundrel the most annoying one. They take you completely by surprise and if you react a second to late, you're done. As soon as they see they're not winning, they'll back off and run away. As a Sniper/Gunslinger (my main), you're screwed then. If you give up your cover and pursue him in close combat, he'll kill you. If you don't, he'll heal up, restealth and give it another try.

 

I think a Marauder/Sentinel is one of the best counters (in a 1v1) against a Operative/Scoundrel. They can engage them on their own terrain: melee. With more defensive CD's they can easily win.

 

On a side note: Not everyone who disagrees with you or your point of view is necessarily a bad player. Forums are made for discussion, and thus you'll find many people that disagree with you. Calling everyone of them a bad player, just because they're not on the same line as you, only ruins your own credibility.

[Redmarx]

Operatives/Scoundrels can be countered, but not as easily as other classes. Of all classes, I find the Operative/Scoundrel the most annoying one. They take you completely by surprise and if you react a second to late, you're done.

 

I think a Marauder/Sentinel is one of the best counters (in a 1v1) against a Operative/Scoundrel. They can engage them on their own terrain: melee. With more defensive CD's they can easily win.

 

 

Compared to WoW the pace of PVP gameplay in SWTOR is very slow. In arena, there are many more things happening at 3-4x the speed of PVP in SWTOR.

 

If you find it difficult to react in time to being opened on by an operative with a 1.5sec gcd and no off-gcd damage abilities, then you're just slow. Their stuns, even their blind, are all on gcd.

 

Marauders are good counters to operatives; so are pretty much any class played by someone who has their CC break (which is off gcd) and CC abilities keybound and can press CCbreak and knockback/stun/awe/mezz in the same gcd. Which is every good player.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Redmarx

[Sanctioned]

On average, yeah. But, I'm not talking about average. I'm talking about the utility a class has at full potential. That potential could be realized by the average, in which case, no one would disagree that it's overpowered. Thankfully, most people aren't able to realize and effectively reach that potential or the game would be spy versus spy.

 

If you spotlight any single class, every one of their potential averages are OP. There is not a single class archetype where if you spotlight their potential average, no one would disagree that it's overpowered.

 

People just don't like getting first-striked. They'll make up all sorts of subjective excuses backed with emotions while lacking any objective data, but the truth is they just plain don't like getting killed by stealth classes. Screw the learning curve it takes to pull off a kill flawlessly; or the fact that that player put himself in an ideal position to get ganked; or the fact that the player panicked and forgot to use his abilities; or how easy it is to escape an ops; or how easy it is to take him out when he no longer has his stealth-only attack. Screw all that. The only reason why anyone complains nerf is because they doesn't like getting killed by something they couldn't see at first. It happens to every stealth class and it's going to continue to happen to every stealth class everywhere. People don't like the idea that there are a breed of players willing to put up with the vast limitations that are inherent to stealth classes, in exchange for the ability to pick and choose targets at will.

 

The existence of a stealth-class presents a perpetual stress to the pvp battlefield; more-so to the non-stealth class; just knowing that a stealthy is in your match will amplify this stress. It's much easier to QQ and hope all stealth-classes get neutered than to adapt to the stress and develop strategies as you would any other other pvp encounter.

 

And that folks, is the truth. When it's so objectively easy to counter an ops, the sheep rather complain about it and wait months for a nerf than spend 5 minutes looking at their abilities and thinking.

 

Also, until there are more WZ brackets (what genius thought pitting lvl 10 - 49 was ok?), if you're not lvl 50 and don't have all your abilities yet than you're irrelevant to pvp discussion everywhere. Period. Your experience of pvp at lvl 25 is not indicative of end-game geared pvp. Get off the forums and go level and gear up so you can kick everyone's butts.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Sanctioned

[VegaPhone]

I have the same problem. And I have pvp gear, close to the best.

 

Operatives against certain classes are OPed.

 

 

Normally any invis that burst dps has an advantage. However, if that burst out of invis takes out huge chunks of hp, and even after surviving that while they are not invis they are still hard to kill, then its not balance 1vs1.

 

I like how everyone is defending the operative, since they probably have one.

 

However, if this makes sense, the timing of my abilities do seem to take longer than the intended cast time. For example I have grav round which should take 1.4 secs to cast. 1.4 should almost feel instantaneous. The GCD is 1.5 and its longer than that! Thats how I know my cast time is broken.

 

So maybe there is a bug for several people and the cast times are not working as intended.

 

I am basically working with a broken cast time. Has this been reported?

 

edit: Also I would like if BW removed cast times from my bar, since seeing the time which is not accurate is throwing off my sense of time. Thnx

Edited April 11, 2012 by VegaPhone

[Vudu]

I'm a Jugg primary, leveling up an Op for fun but I'm only at level 38. I just picked up the HS, but I don't have Acid Blade to augment it yet, so my hits in the 10-49 bgs are only around 2.2-2.6k on crits. Still a large chunk in that BG, though.

 

So I can only come at this from a theoretical standpoint, and experience of the mechanics if not the top end damage potential. I know for a fact that an Op who is restealthing to begin his opener again must really want to kill you or knows there's no one else around to attack him after he finishes you off, because that's my only escape mechanism out of a bad situation, and it's on a (talented) 2 min CD.

 

The heal is negligible (however helpful) over a 10 second span, it really takes the full duration to matter in a fight.

 

So yes, an operative can do what you said above, but from my experience the second stun fills your resolve, meaning it's only 5.5 seconds at most that you remain stun locked. My experience is purely anecdotal since I don't have combat logs, so I'm not sure if there's another player using a CC which is adding to the resolve, but I do a lot of 'thinning the herd' and pick off the players at the edge of the scrum 1v1 and 100% of the time I see resolve go up as soon as I throw my stun.

 

For arguments sake, let's say it doesn't fill your resolve. And they do restealth and open again. That 3rd 1.5 second knock down will fill you. And that's still only 7 seconds of stun lock.

 

The KD doesn't affect resolve, right? Honestly, I never paid attention if it does or doesn't. So, only one stun is used in the situation I described. Although, I have had others used against me on top of the opening stun. But, they're more of an interrupt, I guess.

 

It doesn't matter, though. I rolled a scoundrel so I'll see for myself if I'm right or wrong in my experience. Maybe those operatives really are that good and I'm just that bad 8)-

[Strifegambit]

Jeez i really wish people would do some research before coming on the forums and throwing all the slander around that is completely untrue & to be honest i thought this post was a genuine troll attempt it was so blatantly wrong

[Redmarx]

All good players were bad at one time.

 

The reason they became good is because they realised they were bad, and sought to improve their knowledge and their gameplay.

 

The ones who didn't went to cry nerf on forums.

[VegaPhone]

However, if this makes sense, the timing of my abilities do seem to take longer than the intended cast time. For example I have grav round which should take 1.4 secs to cast. 1.4 should almost feel instantaneous. The GCD is 1.5 and its longer than that! Thats how I know my cast time is broken.

 

So maybe there is a bug for several people and the cast times are not working as intended.

 

I am basically working with a broken cast time. Has this been reported?

 

edit: reposting from previous page... hopefully someone can answer as to why my cast times are wrong.

Edited April 11, 2012 by VegaPhone

[Redmarx]

However, if this makes sense, the timing of my abilities do seem to take longer than the intended cast time. For example I have grav round which should take 1.4 secs to cast. 1.4 should almost feel instantaneous. The GCD is 1.5 and its longer than that! Thats how I know my cast time is broken.

 

So maybe there is a bug for several people and the cast times are not working as intended.

 

I am basically working with a broken cast time. Has this been reported?

 

edit: reposting from previous page... hopefully someone can answer as to why my cast times are wrong.

 

The cast times are not wrong. You, on the other hand, are.

[Vudu]

However, if this makes sense, the timing of my abilities do seem to take longer than the intended cast time. For example I have grav round which should take 1.4 secs to cast. 1.4 should almost feel instantaneous. The GCD is 1.5 and its longer than that! Thats how I know my cast time is broken.

 

So maybe there is a bug for several people and the cast times are not working as intended.

 

I am basically working with a broken cast time. Has this been reported?

 

edit: reposting from previous page... hopefully someone can answer as to why my cast times are wrong.

 

Seeming like and are, are different. You'd need to time it to be certain. I'm pretty sure, especially in pvp, that our understanding of time is relative.

 

1.4 seconds can be a very long time. Push someone off of a building that's ~40 feet high and ask them how long it felt that they were falling.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Vudu

[Xaearth]

"Operatives: We roll bads. :cool:"

 

/endthread

[Astarica]

Grand Moff Tarkin once said rule with the fear of force as opposed to force itself. That's pretty much what stealth is. The best way to deal with it is to pretend it doesn't exist. If you're matched up against a hard counter class like Tanksin, they'd beat you while visible anyway. When you attack a node you should always assume the enemy defends with two guys so you need to take at least two guys because that's just a good idea, and if you're not prepared to fight 1 guy + 1 potentially stealthed guy (the most applicable situation for stealth) you shouldn't be making the assault.

 

And what people don't get is that a stealthed character does no damage until he comes out of stealth, and you do no damage while looking for the stealthed character either. Therefore, the sooner you start doing damage/capping/whatever the bigger advantage you've on the stealthed character because he is doing no contribution until he leaves stealth.

 

This issue is most exemplified in Huttball where people will spend time looking for the stelathed guy in the endzone even though it's a total waste of time. If a guy is stealthed there, he's not part of the team, so the team with the ball is down two person (ball carrier + stealther). If you can't win 8 on 6, it's already over anyway. The way you make him reveal himself is by killing his ball carrier, so that he either has to continue stand in endzone doing nothing or he has to come back to defend. If you get sapped by a stealther at a node, what you do is keep capping because eventually your resolve bar will be full and he has to come out of stealth to stop you.

[Astarica]

All good players were bad at one time.

 

The reason they became good is because they realised they were bad, and sought to improve their knowledge and their gameplay.

 

The ones who didn't went to cry nerf on forums.

 

There's this story about a guy who learned martial arts from a bunch of bad martial arts masters, and people asked how did he become so good if he learned from a bunch fo bads, and he replied that he learned what made them bad and that process made him good.

 

It's actually a surprisingly true statement in real life too. You don't have to learn how to be good. You just have to figure how to not be bad.

[Redmarx]

There's this story about a guy who learned martial arts from a bunch of bad martial arts masters, and people asked how did he become so good if he learned from a bunch fo bads, and he replied that he learned what made them bad and that process made him good.

 

It's actually a surprisingly true statement in real life too. You don't have to learn how to be good. You just have to figure how to not be bad.

 

 

That works too. The key element is learning, rather than nerf-crying.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Redmarx

[SableShadow]

The KD doesn't affect resolve, right?

 

Yes ... HS/SF + D/Dk (the "stun lock") = full resolve. That's why hanging onto the cc break to use it after the second mez is so very important.

[wwkingms]

lol i can tell the operatives in here

 

operatives want easy quick kills against people who cant fight back

 

anything else and theyre crying theyre UP in forums

 

the O P didnt give too much information but i will

 

on my FULL BM sorc with 16.1k hp self buffed and 660 expertise..

 

i have been stunlocked, from 100%-0% by operatives, all becuase my trinket wasnt up

 

OPs think this is balance

[wwkingms]

Yes ... HS/SF + D/Dk (the "stun lock") = full resolve. That's why hanging onto the cc break to use it after the second mez is so very important.

 

very hard to do, espcially as a sorc..

 

watching your hp drop drop drop, knowing you're coming out of these stuns at 35%~ hp and no REAL defensive cooldowns

[Xaearth]

very hard to do, espcially as a sorc..

 

watching your hp drop drop drop, knowing you're coming out of these stuns at 35%~ hp and no REAL defensive cooldowns

 

You don't need to defend against an Operative/Scoundrel.

 

You just need to survive and get out of 10m, then laugh at him.

 

Kiting Operative/Scoundrels as a Sorc/Sage is child's play.

[Varthag]

So yes, operatives have the advantage in 1v1 situations. Yes, they open hard and might not give you the chance to recover(though that's highly situational).

 

Has it ever occurred to you folks crying for nerfs that they were designed this way on purpose? Really, the only decent thing about this class is that you can pick out random single targets and finish them off quickly, then vanish.

 

Put them in a group fight and they'll be the first focused for being free kills. They're one of the squishiest classes out there. It's too bad they're getting nerfed, because any less than what they have will come close to useless.

 

And no, I don't play an operative.

[illgot]

When the OP stated "sith" he like many others tend to genralize all Empire faction as Sith. kind of a common mistake

 

for new players.

 

I have an operative, I hit like a TRUCK in my full BM gear... when the person has little to no PvP gear on.

Edited April 11, 2012 by illgot

[CrunkShizzle]

you know what the even sadder reality of OP's are?

 

bioware looks at posts like what wwkingms put.and nerfs based on it

 

operative type classes are suppose to steamroll mage types.go play a tank assassin or a shield tech powertech.im sure you wont be getting 100 to 0 hp in 5 seconds

[maticlandarr]

you know what the even sadder reality of OP's are?

 

bioware looks at posts like what wwkingms put.and nerfs based on it

 

Its weird how many people think that it works this way. Actually not that weird. They are people after all.

[Vudu]

you know what the even sadder reality of OP's are?

 

bioware looks at posts like what wwkingms put.and nerfs based on it

 

operative type classes are suppose to steamroll mage types.go play a tank assassin or a shield tech powertech.im sure you wont be getting 100 to 0 hp in 5 seconds

 

Maybe it's just me, maybe it's the ops. I don't know. I do pretty good on shadow against everyone but operatives - whether I win or lose. Operatives, good ones, on the other hand, typically will only let me get a couple of attacks off before they kill me. Then, they heal the 5K damage I did and move on ...

 

Seriously, say I'm bad all you want. It doesn't bother me. Being bad has nothing to do with losing 75% of my health before I can even start to fight back, pop meds, relics, etc.. run ...

 

No other class can kill as effectively, without fear of losing, than a well played operative.

 

The toon that I use to fight against operatives best is gunslinger. Because the burst damage and range really helps. Still, if I recently used any defenses (hunker down, pulse, dodge) that dps doesn't help. The operative will just heal any damage I do while already dishing out at least as much if not more than I can do in the same time.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Vudu

[Powderhorn]

I really don't understand all of this. NONE of you can just pop some sort of sprint or pull yourselves away, or push the operative/scoundrel away, and just... walk away? It's not like we have any gap closers.