When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow? + Proposed changes

[Jarfunkz]

I think her (or his) point is valid.

 

How much is too much? You're obviously taking your metrics from silly scoreboard screenshots that don't tell the whole story, so that's not a good measure. It's perfectly plausible to refute one baseless screenshot w/ another, since neither of them mean anything when it comes to class balance.

 

Are we talking about damage per second? Total damage done? Burst damage? High crits?

 

What is the criteria for saying someone is doing too much damage, other than some random screenshot of a tank being healbotted through an entire WZ while spamming AoEs?

 

Why does it matter how much healing the Tankasin did, when he's only healing HIMSELF? It adds to his survivability by design, since the Tankasin is less sturdy than the other two tanking classes w/out it. That is not very accurate, considering they have a much higher defensive roll than the other two tanks.

Neamhan is asking a very simple question. What are you basing your judgment on when it comes to damage?

 

I don't see why it's so hard to answer, if you think they do "too much damage". You must have some sort of basis to be saying that, right?

 

Why do you keep dodging the question w/ vague statements like "DPS numbers" and "too much damage" w/out trying to clarify your position. It's hard to take anyone seriously who can't even provide the basis for their own argument.

 

I don't really care that much about the damage portion, I care about the utility aspect of tank assassin.

 

Knockback (area)

Pull

CC's

Best defensive cd from any tank (yes 5 seconds of invincibility per 45 seconds is better than 12sec@25% per 2 min)

The "BEST" defense (I believe I explained this sufficiently)

Cloak

still high damage, now the burst is not as much as it could be, but stop pretending it is a lamb.

"best" mobility (I do not think I need to explain this)

Multiple self heals that somehow count in warzones

Throw in some taunts and guard

 

I realize that many of you do not want to see your class be nerfed, hell it is fun to roll around all god-like. But if you eliminate or reduce any of the two things I listed, it is still a formidable class.

 

There is no other class-spec that has this much utility, the only thing that wasn't given to this class-spec was healing others...

[Jarfunkz]

They can't kill good healers 1v1.

 

There is no reason why they can't help take down healers with the other dps. Tanks are not viable in pvp if they can't assist the dps.

 

If you got hit for 5k you were a sorc in execute range with no guard on by a "tank" with 17k hp with expertise/trinket buff. If that 5k hit was 3k you still would of died, in the right circumstance I have gotten 5k spinning strikes, never have I got the 5k medal though.

 

Fairly certain no class right now can kill a good healer...

[Varicite]

I realize that many of you do not want to see your class be nerfed, hell it is fun to roll around all god-like. But if you eliminate or reduce any of the two things I listed, it is still a formidable class.

 

There is no other class-spec that has this much utility, the only thing that wasn't given to this class-spec was healing others...

 

Oh, I agree the utility is what makes it a bit too powerful in current WZ situations. I've said so a few times since that post you quoted. : )

 

It could stand to be toned down to be in line w/ what other classes are bringing to the table, instead of the "total package" treatment it currently has.

 

I play a decent amount of classes and plan to play more; I'm not particularly partial to any of them to call for nerfs/buffs (not that anybody wants to see their class nerfed, but sometimes adjustments are needed). I just try to call things as I see them, and I didn't agree that the damage portion is what needed to be adjusted.

 

Also, I meant that Tankasins had less overall mitigation outside of cooldowns, which is the majority of the time in PvP. Vanguards most certainly mitigate more damage passively than a Tankasin.

 

I agree that Force Shroud is incredibly strong, 1 of the 2 strongest defensive cooldowns in the game (the other belonging to Maras).

Edited April 4, 2012 by Varicite

[TheLakers]

I don't really care that much about the damage portion, I care about the utility aspect of tank assassin.

 

Knockback (area)

Pull

CC's

Best defensive cd from any tank (yes 5 seconds of invincibility per 45 seconds is better than 12sec@25% per 2 min)

The "BEST" defense (I believe I explained this sufficiently)

Cloak

still high damage, now the burst is not as much as it could be, but stop pretending it is a lamb.

"best" mobility (I do not think I need to explain this)

Multiple self heals that somehow count in warzones

Throw in some taunts and guard

 

.

 

Not to mention, STEALTH. Including the ability to cleanse all dots, something Guardian/Juggs can't do and then Vanish. They can also SPRINT, AOE taunt and GUARD while invisible. Which is absolutely hilarious and silly.

[Varicite]

Not to mention, STEALTH. Including the ability to cleanse all dots, something Guardian/Juggs can't do and then Vanish. They can also SPRINT, AOE taunt and GUARD while invisible. Which is absolutely hilarious and silly.

 

You do realize you're mentioning exactly what they just mentioned, right?

 

Just thought I'd mention it. : )

[Abiza]

Lemme explain:

 

The guy took the ball, starts walking towards our goal, with most of the team throwing cc´s and bashing his head with everything, and he keeps walking.

 

Then he sees the fire, and like a star wars Jesus he just walks through the fire with the ball, keeps walking to the goal line and scores.

 

This is not a tank, its a moving fortress.

 

Also, besides the decent amount of dps he does, he can vanish, knockback, sprint and turn water into wine too.

 

Let me spell this out for you nice and slow.

 

All tanks can do that when being healed/popping defensive cd's/medpacks. Hell, other tanks can just bypass the fire all together, nearly jump the entire distance of the arena in a matter of seconds while still being able to do the things you complain about and save their defensive cd's for a goal line stand while the assassin has already spend his.

 

What else would you like complain about?

[Neamhan]

I don't really care that much about the damage portion, I care about the utility aspect of tank assassin.

 

Knockback (area)

Pull

CC's

Best defensive cd from any tank (yes 5 seconds of invincibility per 45 seconds is better than 12sec@25% per 2 min)

The "BEST" defense (I believe I explained this sufficiently)

Cloak

still high damage, now the burst is not as much as it could be, but stop pretending it is a lamb.

"best" mobility (I do not think I need to explain this)

Multiple self heals that somehow count in warzones

Throw in some taunts and guard

 

I realize that many of you do not want to see your class be nerfed, hell it is fun to roll around all god-like. But if you eliminate or reduce any of the two things I listed, it is still a formidable class.

 

There is no other class-spec that has this much utility, the only thing that wasn't given to this class-spec was healing others...

 

There's only a few things I want to point out about your post. First, Force Shroud isn't 'invincibility'. It's strong, no doubt. But it only works against Force and Tech attacks. Snipers can easily work around it, for example.

 

Assassins have excellent mobility, but so do all of the tanks. Guardians have their multiple leaps and Vanguards have a leap as well as Hold the Line.

 

Finally there's the damage bugaboo. There's that dreaded undefined 'high damage' again. Players on the test server have been running combat logs with parses for various classes. Sadly, I haven't seen the DPS numbers for all the classes yet but I have seen ones for various Shadow builds. Would it surprise you that Kinetic (tank) Shadows, even in DPS gear, are running well behind Balance Shadows in DPS? As they should be, of course, but the way people talk about Shadow tank damage in this thread one would think they're at least equaling DPS damage, yet actual testing isn't showing this.

 

As for your list, tanks in general have a lot of utility. This shouldn't be any surprise. It's easy to list them all and say 'wow, that's a lot!' The Guardian list is quite long as well:

 

Guard

Taunt

AoE Taunt

Stun

2nd stun

3rd stun

4TH STUN (yup, Guardians get 4 different stuns)

AoE mez (a highly underrated ability; Guardians get this, Vanguards get their AoE stun and Assassins get the AoE knockback)

Leap

Second leap

Reset on first leap

A root that works through both the dreaded Force Shroud as well as Resolve (great for stopping ball carriers)

An interrupt with a faster recharge than Assassins (8 seconds vs 12 seconds)

AoE slow

Knockback (this is what resets the leap early)

+40% DR cooldown

+25% DR cooldown vs tech and force

Enemy armor debuff

 

And on top of all that a Guardian has higher DR from armor than an Assassin. Plus if they want to go hybrid (which many currently do, though probably less after 1.2) they can also get yet another +20% DR and immunity to CC for 4 seconds.

 

The point isn't that one is 'better' than the other. I'm just trying to demonstrate that tanks get a lot of utility. The Assassin list looks fine when compared to the Guardian list.

 

I have a Guardian as well as a Shadow which is why I'm familiar with the abilities of both, but I don't have a Vanguard yet. But if you like, I'm sure I can get a list of Vanguard abilities too. I know it includes such fun things as both a leap and a pull, multiple roots, immunity to movement impairment and knockdowns, AoE stun, the standard guard/taunt/aoe taunt, and I'm sure at least a couple of other things.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Neamhan

[_Scattered_]

+30% health cd as well.

 

The 25% force and tech dr cd adds 50% defence also.

 

That aoe slow is spammable and is a 50% movement reduction.

 

AoE mez at high level pvp is going to win games.

[Grimspire]

Assassin's aren't capable of it in tank spec or tank stance either.

 

Lol. You haven't been keeping up have you?

 

Every screenshot in this thread you've seen of Assassin's doing 700k damage 100k protection and 100k healing have been from the ones in Tank spec and Tank stance guarding another player.

[Varicite]

Lol. You haven't been keeping up have you?

 

Every screenshot in this thread you've seen of Assassin's doing 700k damage 100k protection and 100k healing have been from the ones in Tank spec and Tank stance guarding another player.

 

Getting spam healed, 0 deaths, spamming weak AoEs and not killing many people.

 

Not the same thing as a DPS class doing that damage.

[KhealThar]

Finally there's the damage bugaboo. There's that dreaded undefined 'high damage' again. Players on the test server have been running combat logs with parses for various classes. Sadly, I haven't seen the DPS numbers for all the classes yet but I have seen ones for various Shadow builds. Would it surprise you that Kinetic (tank) Shadows, even in DPS gear, are running well behind Balance Shadows in DPS? As they should be, of course, but the way people talk about Shadow tank damage in this thread one would think they're at least equaling DPS damage, yet actual testing isn't showing this.

 

There's a huge difference between DPS in PVE and DPS in PVP. Something can be weak in PVE and do incredible damage in PVP.

 

For example, In World of Warcraft, an Arms Warrior was one of the worse DPS specs in PVE. They were also one of the best DPS specs in PVP.

 

You can't just "parse combat logs" and go, okay well so and so is fine in PVP because this combat log I tested on a raid boss says so!

 

 

I know it's hard for people to grasp a simple concept such as AOE damage skewing numbers and making them much larger than they actually are (AoE in general does way too much single target damage in this game anyways) but Shadows tanks aren't very balanced.

 

Shadows will be nerfed just as Marauders will be nerfed. How big of a nerf that is, no one knows. It's coming though. I play both classes and just by playing them it's pretty obvious they're too strong.

 

It's understandable to defend your class, everyone does it.

[Cowflab]

There's a huge difference between DPS in PVE and DPS in PVP. Something can be weak in PVE and do incredible damage in PVP.

 

For example, In World of Warcraft, an Arms Warrior was one of the worse DPS specs in PVE. They were also one of the best DPS specs in PVP.

 

You can't just "parse combat logs" and go, okay well so and so is fine in PVP because this combat log I tested on a raid boss says so!

 

 

I know it's hard for people to grasp a simple concept such as AOE damage skewing numbers and making them much larger than they actually are (AoE in general does way too much single target damage in this game anyways) but Shadows tanks aren't very balanced.

 

Shadows will be nerfed just as Marauders will be nerfed. How big of a nerf that is, no one knows. It's coming though. I play both classes and just by playing them it's pretty obvious they're too strong.

 

It's understandable to defend your class, everyone does it.

 

No... They won't. The class already took a few nerfs LAST FRICKIN MAJOR PATCH, FFS! Darkness was buffed to what it is now because it was "under performing" according to the devs. Maybe people should figure out how to counter assassins in game(I assure you that it can be done if you're not terrible) instead of whining on the forums like a spoiled brat because their own class was likely nerfed and you know what they say? Misery loves company.

 

Before you spout off with your "FOTM" nonsense, I play madness spec and kill darkness assassins regularly. With how many terrible tankassins there are running around, I'm surprised they are able to kill anybody.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Cowflab

[Magnesium]

A lot of it does come down to knowing exactly what the other class has to do and then the best ways to try and counter it and it is no surprise that the best people who know how to counter a class are those who play the other class they are fighting.

 

Also, people talk about high damage, but no 2 WZs are the same and can not be judged as that. Any class who can last long enough in the battlefield will put up decent damage numbers if they are constantly attacking someone and having very little downtime between DPS.

 

Assassin/Shadow Tanks ARE difficult to kill, but if anyone here has fought against ANY other Tank spec class knows they if they are played to the same level, then they too are difficult to kill.

[KhealThar]

No... They won't. The class already took a few nerfs LAST FRICKIN MAJOR PATCH, FFS! Darkness was buffed to what it is now because it was "under performing" according to the devs. Maybe people should figure out how to counter assassins in game(I assure you that it can be done if you're not terrible) instead of whining on the forums like a spoiled brat because their own class was likely nerfed and you know what they say? Misery loves company.

 

Before you spout off with your "FOTM" nonsense, I play madness spec and kill darkness assassins regularly. With how many terrible tankassins there are running around, I'm surprised they are able to kill anybody.

 

I don't spout "FOTM nonsense", I don't even consider Darkness/Kinetic a huge problem. With the amount of complaints etc they probably will get nerfed though.

 

You seem overly mad over calls for nerfs to a spec you apparently don't play though.

 

Darkness is ridiculously easy to play and put forth almost no effort to score kills. Problem with this is people have to put out so much more effort to get the same result as a darkness sin and it just isn't balanced.

Edited April 4, 2012 by KhealThar

[Neoforcer]

Here a little info for the player complaining the lead developer has said many times they do not nerf because john que public is complaining on the forums they only adjust a class based on data from there in game combat system.

 

 

What that means is if they felt shadow/sin were doing more damage then they should you would see it in the patch notes for 1.2. There not waiting for 1.3 to do so just because, it would be there if the metrics back up your complaining.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Neoforcer

[aypolo]

You can get that much protection by just throwing Taunts around.

 

Tanking = Having a Guard on another player the majority of the match which will lead to 100k+ protection.

 

100k+ protection every game? No.

Pics or it didn't happen.

[Darth_Acherus]

Here a little info for the player complaining the lead developer has said many times they do not nerf because john que public is complaining on the forums they only adjust a class based on data from there in game combat system.

 

 

What that means is if they felt shadow/sin were doing more damage then they should you would see it in the patch notes for 1.2. There not waiting for 1.3 to do so just because, it would be there if the metrics back up your complaining.

 

Tell that to operatives, they are getting a very undeserved nerf.

[SableShadow]

Here a little info for the player complaining the lead developer has said many times they do not nerf because john que public is complaining on the forums they only adjust a class based on data from there in game combat system.

 

So ... there's no point in people posting in defense of their class, then?

The wise and mighty BW will take care of everything?

 

What that means is if they felt shadow/sin were doing more damage then they should you would see it in the patch notes for 1.2. There not waiting for 1.3 to do so just because, it would be there if the metrics back up your complaining.

 

If their metrics were that bulletproof, class balance would have been perfect at launch and no nerfs would have been required in subsequent patches.

 

MMOs (heck, every game) has nerf/buff cycles, despite having their own internal measurement systems. It's not like BW suddenly invented math.

Edited April 4, 2012 by SableShadow

[Neoforcer]

Tell that to operatives, they are getting a very undeserved nerf.

 

 

I have and there getting a nerf not because any one is complaining it is because the dev do not like how the class is performing within there own number not because some one QQQQQQQQQs

[Dee-Jay]

Played a match vs. 5 Assassins earlier today.

 

It made obvious just how OP the class/spec is. Even if you had the clear advantage over the middle you couldn't kill the Assassins fast enough to capture a point.

 

Rotating between taking cooldowns combined with their general resilience made them very though targets. And when they did drop low they'd simply vanish to buy their respawn enough time to return.

 

At least an Operatives dies when you catch him in the open.

 

Their tanking skills even allow them to mix and match PvE gear with their PvP set, making them even more effective.

 

Assassins are literally the class that has everything.

 

This needs to be addressed before 1.2 goes live.

[Alkaholic]

I have a Guardian as well as a Shadow which is why I'm familiar with the abilities of both, but I don't have a Vanguard yet. But if you like, I'm sure I can get a list of Vanguard abilities too. I know it includes such fun things as both a leap and a pull, multiple roots, immunity to movement impairment and knockdowns, AoE stun, the standard guard/taunt/aoe taunt, and I'm sure at least a couple of other things.

Only tanking tree gets leap. If they have leap, they don't have 8 sec immunity. If they have immunity, they're no longer tanks just a melee in heavy armor. They don't have any oh snap cds. If they're tank spec, their dmg sux. No comparison between Assassins and Vanguards in their tank specs. NONE... Edited April 4, 2012 by Alkaholic

[Neoforcer]

Played a match vs. 5 Assassins earlier today.

 

It made obvious just how OP the class/spec is. Even if you had the clear advantage over the middle you couldn't kill the Assassins fast enough to capture a point.

 

Rotating between taking cooldowns combined with their general resilience made them very though targets. And when they did drop low they'd simply vanish to buy their respawn enough time to return.

 

At least an Operatives dies when you catch him in the open.

 

Their tanking skills even allow them to mix and match PvE gear with their PvP set, making them even more effective.

 

Assassins are literally the class that has everything.

 

This needs to be addressed before 1.2 goes live.

 

yep tanking need a nerf so they will be useless in tanking in pvp/pve if you have 5 tanks at one objective point you are not taking it no matter if it is one tanking class or a mix of all of them, tank live longer it why there called tanks

[Zekeiele]

I'm pretty sure that 5 tank problem would be the same of worse if it was 5 healers...sometime an imbalanced group can make for difficult warzones nature of the beast.

[Neoforcer]

I'm pretty sure that 5 tank problem would be the same of worse if it was 5 healers...sometime an imbalanced group can make for difficult warzones nature of the beast.

 

sarcasm on, Hell 3 healers at one objective is a op group make up wait nerf healer 3 of them can guard an objective and no one can kill them. I call for nerfing them to the ground. Wait a min i delt with this we just bring more players and kill them never mind sarcasm off.

 

 

p.s i kidding healers do not need nerfs

[Jarfunkz]

There's only a few things I want to point out about your post. First, Force Shroud isn't 'invincibility'. It's strong, no doubt. But it only works against Force and Tech attacks. Snipers can easily work around it, for example.

 

Assassins have excellent mobility, but so do all of the tanks. Guardians have their multiple leaps and Vanguards have a leap as well as Hold the Line. You can not spec both storm and hold the line for pt/vanguard that would require 52 pts

Finally there's the damage bugaboo. There's that dreaded undefined 'high damage' again. Players on the test server have been running combat logs with parses for various classes. Sadly, I haven't seen the DPS numbers for all the classes yet but I have seen ones for various Shadow builds. Would it surprise you that Kinetic (tank) Shadows, even in DPS gear, are running well behind Balance Shadows in DPS? As they should be, of course, but the way people talk about Shadow tank damage in this thread one would think they're at least equaling DPS damage, yet actual testing isn't showing this.

 

As for your list, tanks in general have a lot of utility. This shouldn't be any surprise. It's easy to list them all and say 'wow, that's a lot!' The Guardian list is quite long as well:

 

Guard

Taunt

AoE Taunt

Stun

2nd stun

3rd stun

4TH STUN (yup, Guardians get 4 different stuns)

AoE mez (a highly underrated ability; Guardians get this, Vanguards get their AoE stun and Assassins get the AoE knockback)

Leap

Second leap Different range

Reset on first leap

A root that works through both the dreaded Force Shroud as well as Resolve (great for stopping ball carrier)All snares and roots(excluding stuns) work through resolve

An interrupt with a faster recharge than Assassins (8 seconds vs 12 seconds)

AoE slow

Knockback (this is what resets the leap early)

+40% DR cooldown

+25% DR cooldown vs tech and force

Enemy armor debuff

 

And on top of all that a Guardian has higher DR from armor than an Assassin. Plus if they want to go hybrid (which many currently do, though probably less after 1.2) they can also get yet another +20% DR and immunity to CC for 4 seconds.

 

The point isn't that one is 'better' than the other. I'm just trying to demonstrate that tanks get a lot of utility. The Assassin list looks fine when compared to the Guardian list.

 

I have a Guardian as well as a Shadow which is why I'm familiar with the abilities of both, but I don't have a Vanguard yet. But if you like, I'm sure I can get a list of Vanguard abilities too. I know it includes such fun things as both a leap and a pull, multiple roots, immunity to movement impairment and knockdowns, AoE stun, the standard guard/taunt/aoe taunt, and I'm sure at least a couple of other things.

 

Vanguard has by far the least utility out of any of the tanks. I would agree with you in this case, if one could get 90 pts to put into their skills. But it falls far from a non-exploit reality.