When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow? + Proposed changes

[Varicite]

And again, none of those players in those screenshots are in tank stance and able to guard another player.

 

Now a class that can do that much damage AND guard someone? That's too much.

 

I'm not sure what makes you think a Pyro PT can't guard another player. Switching Cylinders doesn't cost anything resource-wise, I do it all the time in Huttball if I'm escorting the ball carrier.

 

Is that your criteria then? 500k damage + guard?

 

I mean, cmon, on huttball some shadow/assassins, besides taking a huge amount of damage while they walk with the ball, JUST WALK THROUGH THE DAMN FIRE and score the goal.

 

Seriously, *** is that?

 

Every tank in the game can do this. It's not special to Tankasins. My fiance does this on her Immortal Jug all the time, on top of Leap > Push > Leap and Intercede.

 

All of the tanks are incredibly strong in Huttball. Juggernaut is actually the strongest.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Varicite

[Ahhmyface]

Wow, actual smart people in a thread on SWTOR forums. I thought the entire population was handicapped children.

[EduardoJN]

Every tank in the game can do this. It's not special to Tankasins. My fiance does this on her Immortal Jug all the time, on top of Leap > Push > Leap and Intercede.

 

All of the tanks are incredibly strong in Huttball. Juggernaut is actually the strongest.

 

Lemme explain:

 

The guy took the ball, starts walking towards our goal, with most of the team throwing cc´s and bashing his head with everything, and he keeps walking.

 

Then he sees the fire, and like a star wars Jesus he just walks through the fire with the ball, keeps walking to the goal line and scores.

 

This is not a tank, its a moving fortress.

 

Also, besides the decent amount of dps he does, he can vanish, knockback, sprint and turn water into wine too.

Edited April 4, 2012 by EduardoJN

[EduardoJN]

I dont like to ask for nerfs in any kind of game, it really sucks and looks like L2P QQ.

 

Ppl must be able to play with any class they want, instead of searching only for the FOTM classes to be the "gosu l33t".

 

A few days ago i was not even paying attention to this kind of thread, but now unfortunately i have to agree that something is not right with this AC and/or with the tank spec they are using.

Edited April 4, 2012 by EduardoJN

[Vaipyr]

Should just link this thread to the one further down the page talking about nerfing vanguards because they're "too good". Also the one on the next page (I'm sure it'll get bumped by some butthurt dpser again) that talks about nerfing tanks in general because they're too strong.

 

Having tanks that are actually viable in pvp in an mmo for once sure has brought about so much hate, qq and tears from people hell-bent that they shouldn't be.

 

Either way, BW has stated that they feel Sin tanks are right where they should be so don't hold your breath for changes. Maybe if you guys spent less time QQ'ing about every class, every change, every mechanic, every WZ, every server, every animation, etc etc etc and actually just played the game without a ME ME ME bias you'd see that the game is incredibly balanced for an MMO. Far better balanced than the current king of MMO's, and especially any other MMO at launch (or even currently). Other than a few tweaks here and there (*coughhealeropsneedlovecough*) overall team/class balance is darn good.

 

TLDR; Tanks viable in PvP. Dpsers be hatin'

 

*Also every time someone refers to a 31/x/x spec (for ANY class) as a 'hybrid' because they're wearing proper gear for pvp instead of crap gear (IE: Tank gear = crap gear for pvp) some girl in a red hoodie drowns puppies in a river*

Edited April 4, 2012 by Vaipyr

[Varicite]

Lemme explain:

 

The guy took the ball, starts walking towards our goal, with most of the team throwing cc´s and bashing his head with everything, and he keeps walking.

 

Then he sees the fire, and like a star wars Jesus he just walks through the fire with the ball, keeps walking to the goal line and scores.

 

This is not a tank, its a moving fortress.

 

Also, besides the decent amount of dps he does, he can vanish, knockback, sprint and turn water into wine too.

 

I know what you're talking about. Like I said, my fiance does the exact same thing every single day on her Juggernaut.

 

Only instead of taking all that damage walking towards your goal, she will just Force Leap to someone, Force Push them further ahead, Force Leap again and if we have anyone over the 2nd fire, she will Intercede to them and score. When it works out, she doesn't take any damage at all and goes from the ball pedestal to the goal line by herself.

 

If not, she will walk through the 2nd fire and score. This isn't a mystical Assassin specialty; all it takes is armor and hp.

 

They do have a ton of utility, though, and that's what I think makes them slightly too powerful in some situations. The people in this thread are focusing solely on their damage, for some reason, which I think is one of the balanced aspects of the class.

 

Their high mobility and stealth coupled w/ their staying power and utility is a crazy combination on most current WZ maps. Their damage isn't the problem, imo.

 

*Also every time someone refers to a 31/x/x spec (for ANY class) as a 'hybrid' because they're wearing proper gear for pvp instead of crap gear (IE: Tank gear = crap gear for pvp) some girl in a red hoodie drowns puppies in a river*

 

Like you just said, tank stats are near worthless in PvP. I would have zero problem being a more defense-oriented tank if that were in any way worth it. Right now, it's not.

 

I don't like wearing completely wasted stats in PvP and being weak compared to everyone else whose stats actually make them stronger. Tanks put in the same amount of work as everyone else. Please fix this, Bioware, and I'll wear a tank set.

: )

Edited April 4, 2012 by Varicite

[Neamhan]

I dont mind tanks at all.

 

What i do mind are tanks doing a decent dps, with several escape tricks, and taking huge amounts of dps and standing like a walking fortress.

 

I mean, cmon, on huttball some shadow/assassins, besides taking a huge amount of damage while they walk with the ball, JUST WALK THROUGH THE DAMN FIRE and score the goal.

 

Seriously, *** is that?

 

The way it is now, the shadow/assassin tank hybrid spec completly blows away the jugg/guardian class with their heavy armor when it comes to tanking.

 

This is wrong and u shadow/sins players know it.

 

Assassins have the lowest DR of the three tanks, at just a hair over 40% in full Battlemaster. Both of the other thanks have at least 10% more than that. The defense stats roughly balance out (High Shield, low Defense for Vanguards, roughly comparable shield/defense for Guardians and Shadows). The other tanks should be just as hard to kill, if not more so.

 

In your scenario with the unstoppable Shadow tank, like everyone else he only gets on CC break on a 2 minute cooldown (the talent to reduce the cooldown is in the Infiltration tree). Resilience lasts 5 seconds, hardly enough time to move as far as you said he did. Your team was likely giving him Resolve multiple times and he was being healed. Any tank would have similar performance under those circumstances. Force Speed is an excellent tool of course, but so are the leaps both Vanguards and Guardians get. Thus, I disagree that the Shadow was out of line with what any tank could do.

[AMKSED]

Assassins have the lowest DR of the three tanks, at just a hair over 40% in full Battlemaster. Both of the other thanks have at least 10% more than that. The defense stats roughly balance out (High Shield, low Defense for Vanguards, roughly comparable shield/defense for Guardians and Shadows). The other tanks should be just as hard to kill, if not more so.

 

In your scenario with the unstoppable Shadow tank, like everyone else he only gets on CC break on a 2 minute cooldown (the talent to reduce the cooldown is in the Infiltration tree). Resilience lasts 5 seconds, hardly enough time to move as far as you said he did. Your team was likely giving him Resolve multiple times and he was being healed. Any tank would have similar performance under those circumstances. Force Speed is an excellent tool of course, but so are the leaps both Vanguards and Guardians get. Thus, I disagree that the Shadow was out of line with what any tank could do.

 

Please go away. You're bring other arguments into this post that aren't even relevant to the original post.

[Neamhan]

Please go away. You're bring other arguments into this post that aren't even relevant to the original post.

 

I'm responding to what people post. If you don't like it, feel free to stop making threads calling for nerfs with nothing to support them.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Neamhan

[Ravenolf]

Then he sees the fire, and like a star wars Jesus he just walks through the fire with the ball, keeps walking to the goal line and scores.

 

laughed out loud with that one. Too funny.

 

Either way, BW has stated that they feel Sin tanks are right where they should be so don't hold your breath for changes.

 

Actually, Bioware said with all the posts on the forum they would investigate. Don't you love being able to post with out giving sources.

[_Scattered_]

KC is strong 1v1, but at high level group play is it is not nearly as dominant.

 

High damage numbers at the end of a wz are usually due aoe zerg fest where no one is dying due to high healing.

 

Real dps spec's as in maras, ops, mercs, pt etc actually kill people, can kill healers, limiting the overall damage that can be done.

 

All tanks should do decent damage to be viable and kinetics given their lower defence should do the most.

[AMKSED]

I'm responding to what people post. If you don't like it, feel free to stop making threads calling for nerfs with nothing to support them.

 

I've supported it enough and I'm not going to waste my time defending against people who just say "Nuh-uh!" to everything I post.

[AMKSED]

KC is strong 1v1, but at high level group play is it is not nearly as dominant.

 

High damage numbers at the end of a wz are usually due aoe zerg fest where no one is dying due to high healing.

 

Real dps spec's as in maras, ops, mercs, pt etc actually kill people, can kill healers, limiting the overall damage that can be done.

 

All tanks should do decent damage to be viable and kinetics given their lower defence should do the most.

 

When 1.2 comes out and cross-server queues. Unless something is done with the current state of Shadow then all you're going to see are the Assassin/Shadow's in defense spec wearing DPS gear as the tanks of the group. Because they way they are now they're able to do BOTH aspects just fine.

 

So in a normal 8 this is how it's going to be.

 

Tank/Damage x2 <------ Shadow/Assassin

Damage x 4

Healer x 2

 

Why bring a dedicated tank when Shadows/Assassins can Tank and do great damage at the same time?

Edited April 4, 2012 by AMKSED

[MrXen]

And again, none of those players in those screenshots are in tank stance and able to guard another player.

 

Now a class that can do that much damage AND guard someone? That's too much.

 

 

If you think a dps geared tank-spec jugg or powertech can't do that kind of damage while guarding you're a fool.

 

 

Juggernaut doing nearly 1,000,000 damage in a warzone? A regime assassins can never touch no matter the spec or gear atm.

 

 

Also realize, a tank-assassin's damage is 60-80% AoE meaning the "big numbers" you see from Zap's screenshot trophies (completely skewed results that mean nothing in terms of balance) are a result of doing low damage to multiple players for a long period of time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please people, I will break out statistics, calculus, and graphs on you if you keep trying to post cream-of-the-crop screenshot trophies of best-of-the-best warzone experiences to use and try to say xxx is overpowered. Learn how to be a person, not a sub-human with no intelligence.

Edited April 4, 2012 by MrXen

[Neamhan]

I've supported it enough and I'm not going to waste my time defending against people who just say "Nuh-uh!" to everything I post.

 

You have 8 posts in this thread and not a single one explains why any of the suggestions you've made are needed. Not. One.

 

So by 'enough' I guess you mean 'not at all'.

[AMKSED]

You have 8 posts in this thread and not a single one explains why any of the suggestions you've made are needed. Not. One.

 

So by 'enough' I guess you mean 'not at all'.

 

Refer to the other one that got 30k views and 1k posts please.

[ImSaved]

If you think a dps geared tank-spec jugg or powertech can't do that kind of damage while guarding you're a fool.

 

 

Juggernaut doing nearly 1,000,000 damage in a warzone? A regime assassins can never touch no matter the spec or gear atm.

 

 

Also realize, a tank-assassin's damage is 60-80% AoE meaning the "big numbers" you see from Zap's screenshot trophies (completely skewed results that mean nothing in terms of balance) are a result of doing low damage to multiple players for a long period of time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please people, I will break out statistics, calculus, and graphs on you if you keep trying to post cream-of-the-crop screenshot trophies of best-of-the-best warzone experiences to use and try to say xxx is overpowered. Learn how to be a person, not a sub-human with no intelligence.

 

Can you explain to me how a Juggernaut in tank spec does 1,000,000 damage?

[Varicite]

Also realize, a tank-assassin's damage is 60-80% AoE meaning the "big numbers" you see from Zap's screenshot trophies (completely skewed results that mean nothing in terms of balance) are a result of doing low damage to multiple players for a long period of time.

 

This is what I keep trying to say, but people crying nerf cannot seem to understand this, and actually believe that a Tankasin does the kind of damage a DPS can put out.

 

If anything, they are strong in the utility department, but their damage is fine. This is a poorly thought-out change.

[LoKiei]

KC is strong 1v1, but at high level group play is it is not nearly as dominant.

 

High damage numbers at the end of a wz are usually due aoe zerg fest where no one is dying due to high healing.

 

Real dps spec's as in maras, ops, mercs, pt etc actually kill people, can kill healers, limiting the overall damage that can be done.

 

All tanks should do decent damage to be viable and kinetics given their lower defence should do the most.

 

Implying shadow/sins can't.

 

In full BM gear(heavy) I consistently take 5k+ damage from certain sin/shadow abilities from players who run tanking stance.

[_Scattered_]

When 1.2 comes out and cross-server queues. Unless something is done with the current state of Shadow then all you're going to see are the Assassin/Shadow's in defense spec wearing DPS gear as the tanks of the group. Because they way they are now they're able to do BOTH aspects just fine.

 

So in a normal 8 this is how it's going to be.

 

Tank/Damage x2 <------ Shadow/Assassin

Damage x 4

Healer x 2

 

Why bring a dedicated tank when Shadows/Assassins can Tank and do great damage at the same time?

 

Low damage tanks are garbage in PvP.

 

Vanguard/PT in dps gear do not do much less damage with higher defence. No one complains about them as much because there are fewer of them, because unlike shdaow/sin they have viable dps/hybrids specs.

 

Guardian/juggs in dps gear are decent, they are very rare though, a lot still use tank gear because they are still viable in huttball. They have the highest defence/control/mobility out of all the tanks. The class has high skill requirement, most of them suck, skilled ones make a huge difference.

 

KW is supposed bring shadow tanking in line with the other tanks, but since shields are useless in pvp the KC spec is basically a hybrid dps/tank they are not nearly as tank enough to be called tanks in pvp.

 

What could be considered overpowered in 1v1 becomes less significant in group scenarios such as self healing and single target cc.

 

Dedicated tanks absolutely need to do respectable damage.

Edited April 4, 2012 by _Scattered_

[_Scattered_]

Implying shadow/sins can't.

 

In full BM gear(heavy) I consistently take 5k+ damage from certain sin/shadow abilities from players who run tanking stance.

 

They can't kill good healers 1v1.

 

There is no reason why they can't help take down healers with the other dps. Tanks are not viable in pvp if they can't assist the dps.

 

If you got hit for 5k you were a sorc in execute range with no guard on by a "tank" with 17k hp with expertise/trinket buff. If that 5k hit was 3k you still would of died, in the right circumstance I have gotten 5k spinning strikes, never have I got the 5k medal though.

Edited April 4, 2012 by _Scattered_

[MrXen]

Can you explain to me how a Juggernaut in tank spec does 1,000,000 damage?

 

I didn't say 1,000,000 damage in tank spec. I said they are capable of putting out that kind of damage.

 

 

 

Sucks when people imply that your class can do an outrageously high extreme in damage while being a mega-ultra tank at the same time in order to make it appear overpowered doesn't it?

 

 

Welcome to what assassin's are dealing with.

[Neamhan]

Refer to the other one that got 30k views and 1k posts please.

 

In that thread, I asked you for DPS (as in actual damage per second) numbers, or even just what you consider an appropriate ratio of Tank vs Damage Spec is and you never answered. The only thing you've ever done is say Assassin tanks do 'too much' damage without saying what 'too much' actually is. Now you've come here and made a suggestion for an across the board damage nerf without giving any indication of what the damage numbers are currently or how you arrived at the amount you want nerfed.

 

The only 'evidence' in that other thread was some screenshots of total damage (which isn't DPS), which I believe we've already shown in this thread are so skewed due to specific circumstances in those particular warzones (1,000,000 damage Juggs for instance) that it would be - let's just say foolish - to base class decision on them.

 

So I'll ask yet again: How much DPS should a Tank do? How much are Assassin doing now? How much are the Damage specs doing? What would be an appropriate damage ratio, in your mind, between Damage Dealers and Tanks? Even if you don't want to go to the test server and use the combat logs to answer what the current DPS numbers are, the other questions should be easy to answer.

[Grimspire]

I didn't say 1,000,000 damage in tank spec. I said they are capable of putting out that kind of damage.

 

 

 

Sucks when people imply that your class can do an outrageously high extreme in damage while being a mega-ultra tank at the same time in order to make it appear overpowered doesn't it?

 

 

Welcome to what assassin's are dealing with.

 

But they aren't capable of putting out that kind of damage in tank spec and tank stance, thus, they are easier to kill.

 

I mean if you really want to get technical about it, dps tanks with Taunt shouldn't do as much damage as pure dps classes either, in my opinion. But that's an entirely different argument.

[MrXen]

But they aren't capable of putting out that kind of damage in tank spec and tank stance, thus, they are easier to kill.

 

I mean if you really want to get technical about it, dps tanks with Taunt shouldn't do as much damage as pure dps classes either, in my opinion. But that's an entirely different argument.

 

Assassin's aren't capable of it in tank spec or tank stance either.

Edited April 4, 2012 by MrXen