Side Speeders Removed From Game

[Varicite]

In objective based warzones, the team that focuses on the objective should be victorious, regardless of strength disparity.

 

I tend to agree that this change will make it so that the team that focuses on killing other players instead of objectives will have the advantage. However, until we actually get to see it in action it will be impossible to form a concrete determination of the status.

 

Killing people is part of the objective, though, every bit as much as defending the nodes is.

 

Normally, from the WZs I've played, people don't generally "farm" the other team unless they have already basically won the WZ, in which case.. they already focused on the objectives first, and you probably didn't stand a chance objective-wise, or at killing them.

 

I honestly like the change, it makes the defense strategy much more important, and makes deaths count a lot more. Instead of just throwing your body at people and dying and then coming right back to stop the cap again, more emphasis will have to be placed on survival (yours and your teammates) and communication.

[Incauta]

If you don't see this resulting in spawn camping just like there abortion called Ilum then....

[Varicite]

If you don't see this resulting in spawn camping just like there abortion called Ilum then....

 

I don't understand how you spawn camp someone in Alderaan when there are 2 different places that you can leave the spawn from. And stealth.

 

Honestly, if you can't get out of the spawn, it really seems like your own fault because:

 

1) There are 2 exits, and you never even have to enter enemy LoS to reach one of the exits. 2) To be killed from the spawn area, you literally have to run straight forward into the enemy's range and either get pulled, or just stand there dying w/out doing anything about it.

 

You basically have to be really stupid to get spawn camped on this map. Maybe Voidstar or Huttball, I could kinda understand, since there is only one place to go from the spawn.

[Astarica]

I swear most people don't know that you can simply run toward the natural side from the drop off point to avoid getting camped. Heck, even in PUGs when we do try to camp the other side in a thorough domination, the opposing side eventually figures out that there's a separate path to go to avoid the 4+ guys waiting to rip you apart the moment you show your face.

 

No it probably won't help you win if the enemy was able to camp you before (if they can camp you they're probably a lot stronger), but people act like if you have an advantage and can wrap it up with a choke is totally wrong. By commiting 4+ guys that far from an objective both of your turrets will be weakly defended (I'd hope you control at least 2 turrets before trying to camp someone), and the speed boost from the underground area allows 2 people to get to your side turret very quickly.

[Exilim]

Another buff to the force speed classes. now mobility matter more than ever.

[lectotrans]

Terrible, pointless change. All it'll result in is every match being dominated by the better side who will then spawn camp the weaker side.

 

Result will be more unbalanced matches and less real territorial warfare.

 

if you had actually played on the PTS with these changes, you'd know that's not true at all. on PTS matches in alderaan are more engaging. download the PTS, play, learn what the changes are really like.....besides the new UI is delicious.

[Darth_Philar]

Killing people is part of the objective, though, every bit as much as defending the nodes is.

 

Normally, from the WZs I've played, people don't generally "farm" the other team unless they have already basically won the WZ, in which case.. they already focused on the objectives first, and you probably didn't stand a chance objective-wise, or at killing them.

 

I honestly like the change, it makes the defense strategy much more important, and makes deaths count a lot more. Instead of just throwing your body at people and dying and then coming right back to stop the cap again, more emphasis will have to be placed on survival (yours and your teammates) and communication.

 

Killing people is not the objective of Warzones. It is a tool that can be used to complete the objectives.

 

I have found that most of the "farming" occurs when one side is much better organized (Premade versus PUG) or when two equally organized groups have a large gear disparity. Once you are into the farming stage, you can easily complete the objectives as no hostiles will be able to leave the farm zone to stop you.

 

Granted, Alderaan has the divider, but I don't think that will be enough to prevent farming unless the farmed team has vent (i.e. a premade). If a PUG starts to get farmed it is going to be lights out.

[Celebrus]

Another buff to the force speed classes. now mobility matter more than ever.

 

This.

 

Thank god they are turning all of the warzones into saber-fests. I wouldn't know what I would do if they figured out how to balance warzones around something other than force speed and force leap.

[Astarica]

Granted, Alderaan has the divider, but I don't think that will be enough to prevent farming unless the farmed team has vent (i.e. a premade). If a PUG starts to get farmed it is going to be lights out.

 

Seriously, you don't need vent to figure out jumping down toward a sea of red names is a bad idea. Even the worst PUGs figure this out really quickly when they're being farmed.

[Varicite]

Killing people is not the objective of Warzones. It is a tool that can be used to complete the objectives.

 

I have found that most of the "farming" occurs when one side is much better organized (Premade versus PUG) or when two equally organized groups have a large gear disparity. Once you are into the farming stage, you can easily complete the objectives as no hostiles will be able to leave the farm zone to stop you.

 

Granted, Alderaan has the divider, but I don't think that will be enough to prevent farming unless the farmed team has vent (i.e. a premade). If a PUG starts to get farmed it is going to be lights out.

 

You generally need to kill people in order to accomplish the objectives.

 

In a situation like most people are talking about, it's definitely going to be impossible to win a Warzone against a team well-organized enough to "farm" you w/out killing anyone.

 

Like I said, if your team is getting stomped so hard that you are getting farmed, the objectives aren't usually a plausible option for your team anymore. With the gear disparity smaller than ever, you are pretty much just getting outplayed (or you have a terrible team composition) at this point. If the opposing team starts to tunnel-vision, you could send stealthers out in tandem to hit more than one turret to try to thin their defending numbers, I suppose.

 

If you're getting farmed at the spawn area, that's your own fault.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Varicite

[Stadulator]

wow BW actually made a good change

 

and all the qq'ing abt being spawn camped lmao... don't be a lemming and you won't get spawn camped roflmao

Edited April 3, 2012 by Stadulator

[Zaodon]

It would have been far more interesting if they had just made the side speeders ALWAYS THERE, even if you don't control the turrets.

 

Now THAT would be strategic.

[optimacy]

The logic behind the change is sound...However...

 

This is a huge buff to classes with speed on a map that already made them most desirable.

 

It's also a huge nerf to dps who die easily, can't vanish, can't heal, can't tank, and no mobility...ie Snipers

 

If ur a sniper in Civil War, you better pray ur side gets mid so u have 1 spot where u can cover and use ur abilities without getting insta-slaughtered...if not...you are just a slow, squishy liability compared to other classes.

[TheronFett]

Good. Those were a bad idea anyway. People you just killed shouldn't be able to make it back within seconds.

 

Agreed.

 

It's really pointless to bother killing someone when they can just be back in under 10 seconds. Civil War might actually require some teamwork now instead of just who can zerg more effectively.

[ComeAndSee]

Side speeders completely screwed up the map balance because it gave the defenders a huge bonus. It basically made trying to split up your team pointless because if its a 3v3 on one point the defenders just keep coming back after they die.

 

You just have to be smart about how you rotate your forces. It's like old school Arathi Basin when we use to have 3 people sit to the side and wait for a point to call for help.

Edited April 3, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[Varicite]

The logic behind the change is sound...However...

 

This is a huge buff to classes with speed on a map that already made them most desirable.

 

It's also a huge nerf to dps who die easily, can't vanish, can't heal, can't tank, and no mobility...ie Snipers

 

If ur a sniper in Civil War, you better pray ur side gets mid so u have 1 spot where u can cover and use ur abilities without getting insta-slaughtered...if not...you are just a slow, squishy liability compared to other classes.

 

My Pyro PT that can't vanish, heal, tank, or have any sort of speed boost supports this change wholeheartedly.

 

Wish it happened sooner.

[Stradoo]

I'm all for weeding out the QQers. Do what you must BW. Take the power back!

 

I think the change will be fine. But then again, my life doesn't revolve around SWTOR.

[Altruismo]

I actually agree with the guy you quoted.

 

It distinguishes objective players from wannabe deathmatch players in the current system. This is opening things up to be a spawn camp situation for really bad composition teams - E.G. a PUG with no healers. Before, at least, they could steal a win if they played for the objectives and let the enemies stroke their epeens with glee.

 

Doesn't really bother me personally, but for the overall health of the warzone it's just removing one of the few things giving outgeared teams a chance if they played intelligently.

 

This. What this guy said.

I recently took part in a Civil war where the pug I was in stole victory from a premade that had a massive gear and coordination advantage.

One of our sins literally stole the west turret while the heroes at the node were too busy or overconfident dancing with each other to notice or stop him.

just three of us then alternately held them off thanks to the side speeders because they were too stupid to CC us when we landed, and by the time they took the node back our team had a big enough lead to ride to victory with just the east node.

Take the speeders away, we could not possibly have done it, and there is no way they deserved to win.

They could have stopped it even with the speeders, they just failed to.

Better gear, better team, way more kills, they lost - L2P boys.

[Varicite]

This. What this guy said.

I recently took part in a Civil war where the pug I was in stole victory from a premade that had a massive gear and coordination advantage.

One of our sins literally stole the west turret while the heroes at the node were too busy or overconfident dancing with each other to notice or stop him.

just three of us then alternately held them off thanks to the side speeders because they were too stupid to CC us when we landed, and by the time they took the node back our team had a big enough lead to ride to victory with just the east node.

Take the speeders away, we could not possibly have done it, and there is no way they deserved to win.

They could have stopped it even with the speeders, they just failed to.

Better gear, better team, way more kills, they lost - L2P boys.

 

Conversely, they would not have been able to back up the turrets nearly as quickly, opening up an earlier opportunity for classes like Sins to ninja a turret w/out instant reinforcements spawning at the node.

 

I think saying it would be impossible w/out the speeders is a little extreme, though I do agree it would be difficult.

 

I can think of just as many times where we have only lost due to reinforcements from the speeders; I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Bazzoong]

Awesome change, I foresee the end of suicide pvp on Alderaan, dying will actually matter. Awesome!

 

Now do the same for Void Star please, make individual respawn timers there, which make sure everyone has to wait 25s before they can leave the med centre.

[Bnol]

Side speeders completely screwed up the map balance because it gave the defenders a huge bonus. It basically made trying to split up your team pointless because if its a 3v3 on one point the defenders just keep coming back after they die.

 

You just have to be smart about how you rotate your forces. It's like old school Arathi Basin when we use to have 3 people sit to the side and wait for a point to call for help.

 

Except that it is nothing like AB, because there are only 2 locations to try to attack and not 3 (in a normal competitive game). Mid gives even more of an advantage than it did in AB, since everyone is going to be spawning near mid instead of spawning in different locations. Mid gives you not only a defensive advantage by having the spawn but also full view of enemy movement. AB also had a transitional time where nobody could rez at the node and had a decent distance from the GY and the node with which to snare CC.

 

The side speeders should have put you behind the turret with a decent flight length. This would keep defenders from having LoS of the node and require defenders to run around the turret, which would allow attackers to much more easily CC/snare you and prevent you from stopping the cap.

[Varicite]

The side speeders should have put you behind the turret with a decent flight length. This would keep defenders from having LoS of the node and require defenders to run around the turret, which would allow attackers to much more easily CC/snare you and prevent you from stopping the cap.

 

This is a much more elegant solution than just removing them entirely from the game. Which is pretty much why it, like the side speeders in 1.2, will never fly.

[Altruismo]

I think saying it would be impossible w/out the speeders is a little extreme, though I do agree it would be difficult.

 

In this case - impossible.

They had 6 at mid spawn camping us, and two out west.

The sin slipped through stealthed by going under from east, without the speeders there is absolutely no way we could have reinforced it after he capped it.

None.

We won because they made some very stupid mistakes - stupid to the same level as facing away from a the doors on voidstar and someone plants behind you without you seeing them.

They deserved to lose, take the speeders out and they would not have.

[cashogy]

Terrible, pointless change. All it'll result in is every match being dominated by the better side who will then spawn camp the weaker side.

 

Result will be more unbalanced matches and less real territorial warfare.

 

this, right here, epitomizes every single problem with the SWTOR PvP community

[Varicite]

In this case - impossible.

They had 6 at mid spawn camping us, and two out west.

The sin slipped through stealthed by going under from east, without the speeders there is absolutely no way we could have reinforced it after he capped it.

None.

We won because they made some very stupid mistakes - stupid to the same level as facing away from a the doors on voidstar and someone plants behind you without you seeing them.

They deserved to lose, take the speeders out and they would not have.

 

Well, if you had 2 stealthers, they could cap and hold off long enough for reinforcements to run through the tunnel to the node. I obviously don't know what your team makeup was, so this may not have been an option (it's always an option for me, since my fiance and I play Assassins atm).

 

You literally cannot be spawn camped on this map because of how the landing zone area is setup, unless you are choosing to put yourself in range of the enemy. What was stopping your team from just hopping down on side of your own node and using the tunnel to take west?

Edited April 4, 2012 by Varicite