Guild Progression Ranking

[charliebass]

Can you reset the "reputation"? A couple of guilds had valid kills, people disputed them becauxse of the time issue, even those were "confirmed" the reputation still stays low for those guilds. Kind of defeats the purpose.

 

We're actually going to be phasing out reputation, its not serving the purpose it was originally designed for. If you see an individual kill that got a ton of downvotes for say, not having a screenshot, it would be appropriate to report unjustified downvotes after they add a screenshot. We can reset the votes in situations like that.

 

 

where do you get the data for the system?

i'm in server empress teta, but there's not guild in the result what's wrong?

 

All data is user entered. You don't see any guilds on that server because none of them have put in their kills. You should suggest to them they do

 

 

Honestly, instead of timestamp, can we just go by first upload first credit system? I understand that is a pain, but all this retroactive adding points stuff is ridiculous

 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'retroactive adding points stuff'. There was a problem with the local to utc time conversion script (which was removed). This left a few guilds with times that were off that we had to adjust. Those have mostly been fixed though, and since then kills getting reported have seemed to have proper times. The system is working just fine. A few growing pains with utc time but the new timer is making it trivially easy for anyone who uses it.

 

And no, first upload first credit will never be implemented.

[xenofire]

The Remnant's times are all off by 5 hours because your form still indicates the script is in place so I didn't adjust our kill times. (Add 5 hours to each, we're CDT time)

 

You should put a drop down box that lets you choose your time zone and then enter your time, that will make the user oblivious to UTC and save a lot of confusion. =)

[Kerotan]

I am no longer auto-logging into the site and when I do try and login I get account not found.

 

Even checked if my guild is still there which it is, with my account name as leader. Password reset email said the same account name etc, yet it is sayin my account does not exist.

 

Account name: Acefrog

[charliebass]

The Remnant's times are all off by 5 hours because your form still indicates the script is in place so I didn't adjust our kill times. (Add 5 hours to each, we're CDT time)

 

You should put a drop down box that lets you choose your time zone and then enter your time, that will make the user oblivious to UTC and save a lot of confusion. =)

 

have whomever uploaded them report them as having errors, include the correct time/date (utc) and we will get that fixed.

 

I definately want to get the option in for people to enter times as their local times. It will be more complicated though because not only do you have to deal with time zones but daylight saving.

[charliebass]

I am no longer auto-logging into the site and when I do try and login I get account not found.

 

Even checked if my guild is still there which it is, with my account name as leader. Password reset email said the same account name etc, yet it is sayin my account does not exist.

 

Account name: Acefrog

Your account is there and active. Try clearing out your browsers cache. Manually logging in should work through.

[charliebass]

Here is a question for the community. What should we do about world boss's? Retribution had a chance to kill The Nightmare Pilgrim over the weekend and it was very different from the old world bosses. Its difficulty is on par with zorn/toth 16 hard. It also drops black hole/campaign.

 

We could just leave things as is, not worry about world boss's. Alternatively we could make a 'World Boss' entry under operations where people can see world boss's. Just curious how interested people would be to see the world boss.

 

I should make it clear, world boss's would only be ranked against themselves, and would not be included in the overall score/ranks.

[arnoldlol]

It should be in there.

[Kerotan]

Your account is there and active. Try clearing out your browsers cache. Manually logging in should work through.

 

I did clear cache and login manually and still getting 'Account not found' error. I have no idea what the issue is.

[Saviorr]

Love the website. Thanks for doing this. This should be stickied!

[charliebass]

I did clear cache and login manually and still getting 'Account not found' error. I have no idea what the issue is.

 

I added some extra logging to try and catch the error on this. One thing you can try is logging in using the email you registered with as your username.

 

-Timelord

[Kerotan]

I added some extra logging to try and catch the error on this. One thing you can try is logging in using the email you registered with as your username.

 

-Timelord

 

Email i already tried and nothing worked.

[charliebass]

A couple updates.

 

*Fixed an ie specific bug that would prevent content from loading until you opened up the console.

 

*Server pages now display all guilds on a server. The last guild is no longer excluded.

*Server pages now display a guilds server rank next to their server tag.

*Boss pages now show you if kills have screenshots or videos

 

I've noticed many people posting twitch streams into the video links so I am working on adding support for twitch. Ill let you know when that goes live.

[FierasElvandar]

Just my 2 cents:

 

We killed bosses 1 and 2 on the day it came out.

Another guild on our server killed all 4 two days later.

We finished up the instance and killed the last 2 four days after our initial kill.

 

Both guilds killed all 4 bosses.

Our guild currently outscores them.

They killed the last 2 bosses before us, yet we rank above them. I don't think I like this. Shouldn't the #1 guild in the world be the first group to CLEAR the instance? I would be upset if I killed Nightmare kephess first but didn't get the #1 rank. Should last boss of instance have more weight?

[charliebass]

Just my 2 cents:

 

We killed bosses 1 and 2 on the day it came out.

Another guild on our server killed all 4 two days later.

We finished up the instance and killed the last 2 four days after our initial kill.

 

Both guilds killed all 4 bosses.

Our guild currently outscores them.

They killed the last 2 bosses before us, yet we rank above them. I don't think I like this. Shouldn't the #1 guild in the world be the first group to CLEAR the instance? I would be upset if I killed Nightmare kephess first but didn't get the #1 rank. Should last boss of instance have more weight?

 

Its an interesting question to say the least. The site was designed with progression in mind, so the ranking of guilds when not all bosses have been killed is its real function. The question of what to do when a guild clears an instance and what that means is, I think, up for some debate.

 

When I look for other competitions out there that are similar to raid progression I would compare it to the Tour de France. In the Tour de France you have a series of stages, where the winner of each stage is whomever finished it the fastest (just like our individual boss kills). The current leader of the tour is determined by totaling the stages times and finding the lowest overall time. You win the Tour de France by having the overall lowest time of the sum of all stages. You could cross the finish line first and not 'win'.

 

This is exactly how our ranks are determined. I think it gives you more of a sense of a guilds overall ability. In the example you cited, you lead the first two bosses, off to a large early lead. They came back and were faster on the next two bosses but they couldn't overcome your early lead.

 

I Would be curious to hear what others think on this. What advantages would weighting the last boss have?

[FierasElvandar]

Its an interesting question to say the least. The site was designed with progression in mind, so the ranking of guilds when not all bosses have been killed is its real function. The question of what to do when a guild clears an instance and what that means is, I think, up for some debate.

 

When I look for other competitions out there that are similar to raid progression I would compare it to the Tour de France. In the Tour de France you have a series of stages, where the winner of each stage is whomever finished it the fastest (just like our individual boss kills). The current leader of the tour is determined by totaling the stages times and finding the lowest overall time. You win the Tour de France by having the overall lowest time of the sum of all stages. You could cross the finish line first and not 'win'.

 

This is exactly how our ranks are determined. I think it gives you more of a sense of a guilds overall ability. In the example you cited, you lead the first two bosses, off to a large early lead. They came back and were faster on the next two bosses but they couldn't overcome your early lead.

 

I Would be curious to hear what others think on this. What advantages would weighting the last boss have?

 

That makes sense, sort of. Except that the Tour de France clearly has start and end points to each leg. In our case, the time it takes to kill a boss is never "paused" as the tour de france is. So, technically, given your example, the quickest finish of all legs would be whoever kills the last boss first. It doesn't matter if you lost stages 1-3 if you made up for it in the last leg.

 

I see this more like playoff baseball/hockey, etc. You might go down 3 games to none (i.e. they killed 3 bosses before you killed one), but who cares if you finish off and kill all four before they can finish. Final series score: 4 to 3.

 

I just feel like clearing Nightmare EC will be a feat. Whoever kills NiM Kephess first is the first to be done with all content. Why should anything else matter?

Edited April 24, 2012 by FierasElvandar

[SageH]

That makes sense, sort of. Except that the Tour de France clearly has start and end points to each leg. In our case, the time it takes to kill a boss is never "paused" as the tour de france is. So, technically, given your example, the quickest finish of all legs would be whoever kills the last boss first. It doesn't matter if you lost stages 1-3 if you made up for it in the last leg.

 

I see this more like playoff baseball/hockey, etc. You might go down 3 games to none (i.e. they killed 3 bosses before you killed one), but who cares if you finish off and kill all four before they can finish. Final series score: 4 to 3.

 

I just feel like clearing Nightmare EC will be a feat. Whoever kills NiM Kephess first is the first to be done with all content. Why should anything else matter?

 

The Tour de France analogy is the right one to use here. Why? Instances are released and it's a race against time to see who kills what the fastest. It isn't anything like Basketball/Baseball where you get a nice schedule, there is a set time, and each side gets x time to give it their best shot. Raiding is an endurance event, shortest time wins.

 

Also, because the last boss isn't always the hardest creates problem with #1 being attached to him specifically. In fact, it's rarely the most difficult boss of an instance. Too correctly apply your example to MMO Raiding every boss would need to be progressively more difficult in order to reasonably score the last boss (Kephess in this instance) differently. Otherwise, there is no legitimate reason to inflate the kill score for a end boss when the previous three were harder. I'm not saying the previous three bosses to Kephess are or are not more difficult, but that would be the base requirement. Along those same lines, you run into an issue then of "Why aren't more difficult bosses valued higher for kill scores than loot pinatas"?

 

Raid Ranks scores in a very similar manner to WoW Progress. Just because a guild there cleared H Rag or H Madness first doesn't grant them an absolute World #1 title. In most cases the guild who can clear the zone first will typically snag that place because those few top guilds are all usually within a couple days of each other so the individual kill scores aren't dramatically different, but in the case where you down X bosses much faster than the other guy and it takes them awhile to catch up essentially devaluing the first few bosses but their troubles on the last few are far less so they barely beat you to the end doesn't mean they "win". They have the rank 1 kill for the boss, but not the rank 1 for the entire instance, you were much faster overall. There is a significant difference between the two.

 

This issue would also be less of one if the instance had more than 4 encounters. Alas, it's essentially just a really long Flashpoint. But even most of those have more boss fights.

Edited April 24, 2012 by SageH

[Eddizel]

Who will run raid ranks now? Retribution is gone, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[FierasElvandar]

The Tour de France analogy is the right one to use here. Why? Instances are released and it's a race against time to see who kills what the fastest. It isn't anything like Basketball/Baseball where you get a nice schedule, there is a set time, and each side gets x time to give it their best shot. Raiding is an endurance event, shortest time wins.

 

Also, because the last boss isn't always the hardest creates problem with #1 being attached to him specifically. In fact, it's rarely the most difficult boss of an instance. Too correctly apply your example to MMO Raiding every boss would need to be progressively more difficult in order to reasonably score the last boss (Kephess in this instance) differently. Otherwise, there is no legitimate reason to inflate the kill score for a end boss when the previous three were harder. I'm not saying the previous three bosses to Kephess are or are not more difficult, but that would be the base requirement. Along those same lines, you run into an issue then of "Why aren't more difficult bosses valued higher for kill scores than loot pinatas"?

 

Raid Ranks scores in a very similar manner to WoW Progress. Just because a guild there cleared H Rag or H Madness first doesn't grant them an absolute World #1 title. In most cases the guild who can clear the zone first will typically snag that place because those few top guilds are all usually within a couple days of each other so the individual kill scores aren't dramatically different, but in the case where you down X bosses much faster than the other guy and it takes them awhile to catch up essentially devaluing the first few bosses but their troubles on the last few are far less so they barely beat you to the end doesn't mean they "win". They have the rank 1 kill for the boss, but not the rank 1 for the entire instance, you were much faster overall. There is a significant difference between the two.

 

This issue would also be less of one if the instance had more than 4 encounters. Alas, it's essentially just a really long Flashpoint. But even most of those have more boss fights.

 

 

You're not taking into account that each guild has different start times on each boss.

 

If guild a kills boss 1 in 1 day and guild 2 kills boss 1 in 5 days, but they both kill boss 2 by the 6th day, essentially one guild took 1 day then 5, and the other took five days then 1.

 

so why should the first guild get more points for boss kill #1, but get equal points on boss 2 when they took substantially longer to kill him?

[alifaraaz]

Although what you say makes sense its an impossible task. Otherwise I could gear myself up with full black hole, along with my guild, not step foot into EC hm for a month and then kill all the bosses in 1 night. Those kills should not be worth more than the world first kills.

 

Thus the simplest most hassle free way is to just reward points based on the time they were killed. So said guilds who get equal points on 2nd boss despite spending less time, are essentially getting lower points because they took longer in the 1st boss.

[alifaraaz]

Although what you say makes sense its an impossible task. Otherwise I could gear myself up with full black hole, along with my guild, not step foot into EC hm for a month and then kill all the bosses in 1 night. Those kills should not be worth more than the world first kills.

 

Thus the simplest most hassle free way is to just reward points based on the time they were killed. So said guilds who get equal points on 2nd boss despite spending less time, are essentially getting lower points because they took longer in the 1st boss.

[Rex_Irae]

Who will run raid ranks now? Retribution is gone, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

 

Yeah for those who haven't heard, Retribution is quitting TOR due to how much of a joke end game is. Not too sure if he'll continue working on Raidranks :-/

[cshouston]

Great. Come on BioWare.... timestamped codex entries.

[vandana_]

Can't you use http://www.wowprogress.com/ system?

[Cassp]

Just my 2 cents:

 

We killed bosses 1 and 2 on the day it came out.

Another guild on our server killed all 4 two days later.

We finished up the instance and killed the last 2 four days after our initial kill.

 

Both guilds killed all 4 bosses.

Our guild currently outscores them.

They killed the last 2 bosses before us, yet we rank above them. I don't think I like this. Shouldn't the #1 guild in the world be the first group to CLEAR the instance? I would be upset if I killed Nightmare kephess first but didn't get the #1 rank. Should last boss of instance have more weight?

 

Salute you for bringing this up, our guild was cheated out of rank 4 world spot, as we went in 2 days late so our 3/4 kills were all in the 20's yet our 4/4 kill was 4th world. just cause some guilds woke up as soon as the servers came up to raid and killed the first boss that we btw 2 shot, somehow means they're ahead of us overall. its heart breaking to see your guild lose hard earned progression by guilds who killed lololol bosses simply because they entered the instance earlier.

 

The marathon post here doesn't make sense in a mmo proggression sense. say for instance what happened to our guild converted into marathon terms, say there were 3 phases and you had 4 objectives to complete over the 3 phases, so a bunch of people attended the first phase which mainly included the completion of 2/4 of the objectives, then that phase stopped and phase 2 started and say guilds who didn't attend phase 1 attended phase 2 and rather did much better then guilds the previous day getting say 3/4 first phase when others only got 3/4 with 2 phases combined. then phase 2 ends and phase 3 starts, a guild that started day 2 finishes day 3 4/4 before guilds who started day one and ranked 4 behind deserving guilds who also killed 4/4 before them, but then as the guilds that completed objectives on day one start finishing 4/4 and as their average completion time is before the guilds who started late, even though they did everything slower...they win?!?!?!? what? so a guild that overall killed everything faster, gets punished for being a better guild.

 

ok sorry for the wall of text seriously, sites like wowprogress have been around a long time, basically been tried and tested and this **** should not exist. The ranking system is unfair im pretty most raiders can agree on that.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Cassp

[Jurugar]

ok sorry for the wall of text seriously, sites like wowprogress have been around a long time, basically been tried and tested and this **** should not exist. The ranking system is unfair im pretty most raiders can agree on that.

 

The only thing that's unfair is that guilds that would be middle of the pack in mmos with larger raiding communities can suddenly call themselves "world top 10" because there's virtually no one to compete against. Not directed at you specifically, but it does seem to be applicable based on your post.. Even at the beginning there were only like 5-6 real progression guilds competing (the majority of which have since quit), which left the rest of the top 20 to literally anyone else who felt like clearing the instances. Now, spots in the top 10 are just easily attainable by pretty much anyone.

 

I feel bad for guilds of future MMOs, who will have to sift through an entire generation of applications claiming world 6th's, world 8th's and world 10th's from this game and slowly realize it really doesnt mean anything.

 

And this is from someone who's been in the top 5 since the game launched.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Jurugar