Give me the system for assigning values to kills that works in every single branch case and deals with all achievements and unforeseeable changes to the game in the future. How do you quantify that one kill is worth 1100 and another is worth 1150? I guess the argument that a system that at least has an objective aspect is "hurr durr" when compared to system that subjectively conjures up new numbers for every boss is lost on me. I understand where you are coming from and we are considering this, but understand where we are coming from: If we start assigning points how you want it, there's just going to be someone else childishly complaining that that point system is "hurr durr". You're welcome to roll your own site for your own system. It's a big internet and no one says that this is all there has to be. We're definitely not opposed to improvements, but it's a difficult path to navigate. I hope you can appreciate that.

It's less a matter of that and more a matter of how much more points do we assign to the pre-nerf kill? What happens if the boss gets nerfed again? At what point does it become less of "progression ranking" and more of just tracking whoever happened to work through bugs/get lucky one week? Assign too many points and the system becomes inflated/inaccurate and people complain. Assign too few points and people complain. However if you leave it as it is, then by nature of the fact that the pre-nerf guild killed the boss before the post-nerf guild they are already getting more points. So in most cases it works itself out. The counter to the argument is when you have a "pre-buff" situation. But now we end up in a sticky-hands on mess if we try to correct anything that way too. Overall trying to handle all of the branching cases will likely lead to issues; either mechanical, or "developer burnout". We're just trying to avoid those.

EDIT: Firstly, thank you for the comment about the effort put in to the site. We've spent a lot of time getting this to the point where it is at and we are glad it's being received well. I agree partially with some of the things you suggest here. Let me start by saying that the primary reason we have not included things like title runs and and pre nerf kills in addition to making some kills worth more than others is because it requires a bit more hands on from the developers of the website. The development team for raidranks.com is well...small at the moment (I'll add that I'm not involved in the coding aspects of this project, just creative design/consulting, and dealing directly with you cretins ;p). It's the same reason this website is "community moderated". We wanted to make something where the community would do most of the work of verification and submission. For many MMO's starting out the only ranking systems early on are threads or websites which typically only have 1 person going out and verifying all kills and dealing with disputes. These threads/sites never last for long. We want something that is a bit more hands off and objective here. We completely rank Story/Hard/Nightmare mode independently in addition to ranking 16 and 8 man independently. There are always going to be people who try to draw comparisons between the different modes and settings, and those who say they should never be compared. We've decided that that's the type of subjective comparison that should be left to the users and not be dealt with by us in order to prevent falling in to these arguments. This is the exact same reason that all kills/achievements/feats will likely be ranked out of the same amount of points. For every guild that says Pylons is the easiest fight in the game, there is going to be another guild that says otherwise. We don't want to get involved in all of that. We just wanted to make a system as objective as possible, and that works well, but that also allows users to draw their own conclusions or read in to the data whatever way they want. This is something that will greatly contribute to the longevity of the site since as developers we don't have to spend a lot of our "outside-raid" time working on this project. As to distinguishing between pre-nerf and post-nerf kills, this is again something that is hard to objectify. For now we are going to keep hands off on this issue as well. We don't want to go in and manually add a new kill category to track every time a boss is buffed or nerfed. Creates a lot of work on our end. So unless we can think of a clever way to handle this from a coding perspective it's likely something that we wont work on soon. As far as including title/achievement runs, this is something I would very much like to include in the near future, but for the moment we're just keeping it simple while we work out the bugs ;p

That's what the dispute system is for. Community members need to take the time to dispute those kills if they feel they have been submitted in error.

Hmm. Any chance you could submit a bug report? Make sure to include what browser you are using. This is the first time someone has reported this bug. Most people seem to be able to submit NiM kills ok.

...This is a user submitted ranking system. Nerf Dialogue has not submitted their kills yet as with a lot of guilds. Also there is a very, very clear distinction between 16 and 8 man...They are ranked completely separately and never even compared. In fact Story Mode is never compared to Hard Mode, which is never compared to Nightmare Mode.

Alright we'll take a look in to it as soon as possible. Thanks for reporting guys.

Editing of kills should now be working properly, however some info is unchangeable (dates and boss, i believe). The reason being that people could cheat the confirm/dispute system by getting a random kill upranked only to later change it to a different boss or change the time to make it appear they were server/region/world first. If you need to change a kill's time entirely you can delete the old kill and re-submit a new one in it's place. EDIT: Sorry I just realized that you said you were getting errors when trying to edit details. Could you submit a bug report related to this issue?

Thanks for the support guys. Glad to see so many people already hopping on board. To add to the discussion about confirmation/dispute; since it is so hard to provide sufficient evidence of kills and achievements in this game currently the best option we felt was available to us was a "community moderated" progression website. At the moment, simply the best way to provide evidence of your kill is to get a screenshot uploaded within moments of actually getting the kill since your site also logs the time you submitted the kill. For the current tier of content that's not possible, but the community has already verified many of the world first/ top kills in threads like: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=252999 and hopefully that concept will continue going forward. We just wanted to provide a centralized platform for doing this and take the burden off of individuals. We also wanted an outlet for people to share their guilds content like screenshots and videos. Hopefully in the future we can scrape all the info automagically and we wont have to rely on community moderation.

Thank you for joining up! Glad to see Condemned's name up there. Just gotta get the word spreading to all the other big raid guilds! Definitely let us know if you run in to any issues or have any feedback!

Cool, thanks for the input. Definitely a good idea. We'll keep that in mind going forward with our updates/bug fixes. As you've probably noticed we have not implemented any account management functionality yet, but we definitely plan on it.

Yea, once it becomes available it would be our intention to completely migrate to a spider/bot system that independently and objectively queries the servers for guild progression. Our current vision is that once his happens guilds would still be able to attach related screenshots/videos for any kill. The concept is that this site not only tracks progression but also would become a centralized outlet for guilds to share video/screenshots to the community as a whole.

Hey, I believe some very limited html is allowed.

Thanks for the feedback so far guys! @Inzi Yea, we are working on getting editing of kills up and running. There are a couple issues that we are considering when allowing editing (non-technical, more just philosophical dealing with the whole confirmation/dispute system) Also, rankings will be presented in tiered content like with other progression sites. 1.2 will begin a new tier. As for Methodical's screenshots, looks like they provided links to their website, not the actual image file. I thought we were parsing links to check for that mistake but I guess not. We'll look in to it soon. @gramz Thanks for the comment about the site's look and feel. We appreciate it. Sorry about the confusion for posting times being in 24 hour entry, not 12 hour. We'll work on making this more obvious. As for now you should be able to delete any one of your kills and re-submit a new one with the proper time. I'm not sure we'll ever allow editing of times because this could lead to really severe "cheating" issues in the future. Title runs are something I would like to include eventually, but we've already got a lot on our plate. We'd like to perfect the basic system first before moving forward ;p @Everyone ;p I noticed that the scoring seems to be doing something a little incorrectly. Some kills are being awarded more points than what they should be. Will look in to that ASAP. Thanks for the input guys. Keep it coming!

Alright guys, Retribution has finally delivered on a raid progression website. Please see this thread for more details: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3639701#post3639701 Or for a direct link to the site: http://www.swtor.raidranks.com/