SWTOR Vs WoW: Blizzard gets it

[indelible]

SWTOR seems to be doing ok.

 

They stated a long time ago they only need 500k subs to be a success. Looks like they surpassed that.

 

I think this thread failed, though.

 

It depends what you mean by "failed".

 

By the inherent measurement of forums, a thread that is active and posted in is a success. This thread has 40+ pages of posts from a variety of different people. It secured just enough posters to "succeed".

 

However by your own admission that doesn't actually mean it succeeded. Despite the fact that, based on the mechanics of these forums, it appears to be a success many would argue it is not.

 

I sincerely hope the metaphor is not lost on you

[Azzras]

It depends what you mean by "failed".

 

By the inherent measurement of forums, a thread that is active and posted in is a success. This thread has 40+ pages of posts from a variety of different people. It secured just enough posters to "succeed".

 

However by your own admission that doesn't actually mean it succeeded. Despite the fact that, based on the mechanics of these forums, it appears to be a success many would argue it is not.

 

I sincerely hope the metaphor is not lost on you

 

When I said I think this thread failed, I don't believe you understood why?

 

I'm not measuring the success/failure of this thread based on number of posts...I could care less about that...I'm basing my personal opinion on the topic itself.

 

WoW is old, past it's prime, and is dying slowly.

 

SWTOR is new and growing.

 

WoW has pandas.

[indelible]

What you're suggesting is that any new MMO has to release with the content of a game that has been out for 10 years plus more?

 

MMOs don't really work like that, m8.

 

The foundation is what you get on release and parts are added as the game matures.

 

The foundation is here, now it's on to the growth part.

 

No. This is where you're going wrong.

 

I am talking about a genre as a whole, a set of games that have embraced certain ideas and features as they genre as a whole has realised that they are, in fact, useful.

 

To suggest that sitting on the Imperial Fleet spamming, "DPS LFG HM," is better than having a tool where you can queue up and be placed in a group that meets your needs... is madness. The entire argument hinges on the idea that there is more player interaction with the former option; there isn't, and if there is that is YOUR doing, not the tools.

 

I, for example, frequently add good players to my friends list in Rift, in Star Trek Online, and in WoW, so that I can play with them in the future. I would probably have never found so many good players if it weren't for the Dungeon Finders in those games.

 

Note the many and varied examples of MMOs that use dungeon finders.

 

And all this, "Blizzard doesn't get it because I'm playing ToR," stuff is utter nonsense. You clearly HAVEN'T read the OP. I don't think most of you are actually doing any real reading AT ALL.

 

Edit: Oh and... LOLOL at the idea that developers get away with skipping content because other games have had 10 years. It's like arguing that new car companies that start up don't have to have power steering, or central locking, or ABS. It's OK though because they're new car companies and the other car companies have had 40+ years to developer the tech.

Edited March 26, 2012 by indelible

[Azzras]

No. This is where you're going wrong.

 

I am talking about a genre as a whole, a set of games that have embraced certain ideas and features as they genre as a whole has realised that they are, in fact, useful.

 

To suggest that sitting on the Imperial Fleet spamming, "DPS LFG HM," is better than having a tool where you can queue up and be placed in a group that meets your needs... is madness. The entire argument hinges on the idea that there is more player interaction with the former option; there isn't, and if there is that is YOUR doing, not the tools.

 

I, for example, frequently add good players to my friends list in Rift, in Star Trek Online, and in WoW, so that I can play with them in the future. I would probably have never found so many good players if it weren't for the Dungeon Finders in those games.

 

Note the many and varied examples of MMOs that use dungeon finders.

 

And all this, "Blizzard doesn't get it because I'm playing ToR," stuff is utter nonsense. You clearly HAVEN'T read the OP. I don't think most of you are actually doing any real reading AT ALL.

 

You're starting to sound upset, m8.

 

I'm sorry there are people out here that don't 100% agree with you.

 

It happens.

[DarthTHC]

To suggest that sitting on the Imperial Fleet spamming, "DPS LFG HM," is better than having a tool where you can queue up and be placed in a group that meets your needs... is madness.

 

It is incredibly unsatisfying that the character limit in signatures prevents me from adding this to mine.

[Frostvein]

What you're suggesting is that any new MMO has to release with the content of a game that has been out for 10 years plus more?

 

No.

No.

No.

 

No one is expecting 10 years worth of content (well, nearly no one)

 

People are expecting comparable features. Not even every feature, just most.

 

 

I don't know how people still deny that this game launched prematurely. 1.2 was supposed to be launch, its as clear as day. And if it wasn't, then I'm pretty depressed with the development team.

[Esproc]

To suggest that sitting on the Imperial Fleet spamming, "DPS LFG HM," is better than having a tool where you can queue up and be placed in a group that meets your needs... is madness. The entire argument hinges on the idea that there is more player interaction with the former option; there isn't, and if there is that is YOUR doing, not the tools.

 

 

It is your fault, in part, because you are by your own statement part of the problem, by not using the current LFG tool that was provided. I am truly sorry if it is too complicated and not a one button menu to pick a choice and go.

 

You may say that the tool is necessary, it is not, that again falls upon your own shoulders. I can not help you, I do not believe in entitlements.

 

And yes, X-Server hurts most of us, except for entitled people who care nothing about anything but themselves and pure self gratification, at any and all costs. It affects Everyone in the server community, and if you want all those tools, please feel free to search elsewhere, as I don't need a community, guild, and server tool that affects so many in such a negative way, such as self destruction.

[Jett-Rinn]

When I said I think this thread failed, I don't believe you understood why?

 

I'm not measuring the success/failure of this thread based on number of posts...I could care less about that...I'm basing my personal opinion on the topic itself.

 

WoW is old, past it's prime, and is dying slowly.

 

SWTOR is new and growing.

 

WoW has pandas.

 

Or to better demonstrate

 

[indelible]

You're starting to sound upset, m8.

 

I'm sorry there are people out here that don't 100% agree with you.

 

It happens.

 

Frankly I do get mildly upset that the vast majority of the population don't seem to understand what are quite simple concepts. I do get upset that objectivity seems to escape most people, that their "acadmic" opinions are dirtied by bias, and that they seem perfectly willing to allow irrational bias to dictate their thoughts and opinions.

 

I get upset because people START with an affirmation, and then build an argument around it. "Star Wars is good. How can I prove Star Wars is good?" What people should be doing is going, "Star Wars has..... therefore Star Wars is good/bad."

 

And if someone else is doing something better than Star Wars, like WoW does Dungeon Finding better than Star Wars, why should the fact that I mention WoW ruin the point? Yeah, WoW lost some subs and it's clearly in decline. Yeah, it doesn't do everything perfectly. Yeah, it's aged. Yeah, it's had 10 years of development. It STILL does Dungeon Finding better than Star Wars ;D

[Lethality]

SWTOR's patch 1.2 has more than all of those patches combined!

 

But WoW was far more complete at launch. And this is 7 years they had the benefit of watching, what would be "standard" for an MMO. Yet...

 

Remember, it's not about the content or bugs. It's the features.

[Bluerodian]

Those "fundamental features" you speak of happen to be game breaking for me. You call them fundamental. I call them community interaction killers. That's just me though ...

 

It's not just you. The problem is that MMOs in the modern era have rendered the concept of community obsolete. Their very structure is such that people have little incentive to interact in any meaningful manner. There's simply no interdependency between players, and even group content can either be soloed at a later time or skipped altogether with little repercussions.

 

In TOR, it's a bit worse. The interaction with the story itself (The biggest drawing point that Bioware touts) is a singular experience to the point that other players all but vanish when you are engaged in dialog. This even further pushes people apart and creates the "single-player" experience.

 

It's not easily fixed without causing hurt to the bottom line.

[indelible]

When I said I think this thread failed, I don't believe you understood why?

 

I'm not measuring the success/failure of this thread based on number of posts...I could care less about that...I'm basing my personal opinion on the topic itself.

 

WoW is old, past it's prime, and is dying slowly.

 

SWTOR is new and growing.

 

WoW has pandas.

 

No, I didn't. And you clearly understood the metaphor, you just failed to infer the wider implications of what I was saying.

[DarthTHC]

It is your fault, in part, because you are by your own statement part of the problem, by not using the current LFG tool that was provided. I am truly sorry if it is too complicated and not a one button menu to pick a choice and go.

 

You may say that the tool is necessary, it is not, that again falls upon your own shoulders. I can not help you, I do not believe in entitlements.

 

And yes, X-Server hurts most of us, except for entitled people who care nothing about anything but themselves and pure self gratification, at any and all costs. It affects Everyone in the server community, and if you want all those tools, please feel free to search elsewhere, as I don't need a community, guild, and server tool that affects so many in such a negative way, such as self destruction.

 

I used the LFG tool in WoW thousands of times. That is all I am going to tell you about me for now.

 

Please explain to me how I am entitled, care nothing about anything but myself and pure self-gratification at any and all costs.

 

Tell me how my use of the LFG tool in WoW automatically means I was a detriment to the community each and every minute I was logged in to the game.

 

Please... share your vast, omniscient knowledge and wisdom.

[BlackZoback]

But WoW was far more complete at launch. And this is 7 years they had the benefit of watching, what would be "standard" for an MMO. Yet...

 

Remember, it's not about the content or bugs. It's the features.

 

Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about. You must have not been there or are wearing such rose tinted glasses your blind, because WoW barely worked when it came out.

[Esproc]

But WoW was far more complete at launch. And this is 7 years they had the benefit of watching, what would be "standard" for an MMO. Yet...

 

Remember, it's not about the content or bugs. It's the features.

 

WoW, really, that was so released incomplete and buggy...more complete? for a Panda maybe, but maybe that's why the release of Mop and pandarian Monks.

 

Who says that a new game wants the "would be 'standard' for an MMO". Perhaps, if you hadn't noticed, this MMO has a name that is SWTOR and I never saw it listed as part of WoW Xpack or any other MMO Xpack, did I miss something? Or is it BW wants it's own path and not the "standard" everyone else has and used and , well, "standard" seems to be failing.

 

It's all about Content, unless you don't read, pay attention to adverts, [spacebar] race and RUSH every bit of content on every game ever and miss the point of some, this one any ways, that is all about content.

 

/waves hand This game, SWTOR, is all about content, You want ---------------> over there.

[indelible]

Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about. You must have not been there or are wearing such rose tinted glasses your blind, because WoW barely worked when it came out.

 

World of Warcraft didn't have a $200 million budget and several hundred (300+) developers working on it, sadly.

 

Star Wars The Old Republic did. Consider that for a second. Consider the amount of work you do for whatever salary you earn, then scale that up to $200 million, then look at the game, and then honestly answer if you think those developers did $200 million worth of work.

[Meldwyn]

World of Warcraft didn't have a $200 million budget and several hundred (300+) developers working on it, sadly.

 

Star Wars The Old Republic did. Consider that for a second. Consider the amount of work you do for whatever salary you earn, then scale that up to $200 million, then look at the game, and then honestly answer if you think those developers did $200 million worth of work.

 

Developers probably got paid peanuts compared to the actors...

[DarthTHC]

So since this has devolved into LFG / community shredding let's throw a true injustice out there.

 

Say you're fighting a mob out in the wilds and you're having a rough go at it. You're close to defeat. About that time, another player comes by.

 

Because the game offers exactly zero incentive for him to help you, he probably doesn't help you. You suffer defeat. Then, because he's keenly interested in what said mob drops, he stands on your corpse as he launches his first attack at it, and he ultimately defeats it.

 

Now say you see a nice resource spawn but it's behind a group of 3 weak mobs. You know you have to kill the mobs to loot it, so you attack the mobs. Now that you're in combat, you can't loot it...

 

But in the 30 seconds you're in combat, another player swoops in, perfectly free from combat-lock, and loots that node out from under you.

 

These are game mechanics that encourage anti-social behavior. In your game. Right now.

 

These are, in this player's opinion, far more frequent than anything I've seen in thousands of LFG runs in "that other game".

 

Where is your outrage over these "features"?

[indelible]

WoW, really, that was so released incomplete and buggy...more complete? for a Panda maybe, but maybe that's why the release of Mop and pandarian Monks.

 

Who says that a new game wants the "would be 'standard' for an MMO". Perhaps, if you hadn't noticed, this MMO has a name that is SWTOR and I never saw it listed as part of WoW Xpack or any other MMO Xpack, did I miss something? Or is it BW wants it's own path and not the "standard" everyone else has and used and , well, "standard" seems to be failing.

 

It's all about Content, unless you don't read, pay attention to adverts, [spacebar] race and RUSH every bit of content on every game ever and miss the point of some, this one any ways, that is all about content.

 

I see you're arguing with the point about standards in MMOs, conviniently skirting over the fact that SWTOR adhere to many of these standards. The combat is a direct rip of the combat system popularised by EverQuest, a combat system that has become a standard for MMORPGs (even the new action MMOs coming out, like GW2 and Tera, use a variant of the same combat system).

 

The crafting system, whilst developed further, is very much like every other generic crafting system in MMOs. Instancing, raid dungeons, encounter design, the holy trinity, player housing, talent trees, itemisation, etc, etc so on and so forth.

 

All of these areas adhere to the basic standards of MMORPGs, standards that have been in place for over a decade.

 

This is fine, I assume, or do you have a problem with all of that as well?

 

/waves hand This game, SWTOR, is all about content, You want ---------------> over there.

 

Really? Where is it? D;

[Alkiii]

But WoW was far more complete at launch. And this is 7 years they had the benefit of watching, what would be "standard" for an MMO. Yet...

 

Remember, it's not about the content or bugs. It's the features.

 

WoW was absolutely awful at launch. I got a free month of game play after the first month because it was so bad. Half the time, you couldn't log in due to the servers going down in flames so often.

 

Since when does any video game become the "standard" for all gaming?

 

Sorry, but Zelda was Zelda and Metroid was Metroid. They were different, they were fun and I didn't need to compare them to each other. Why? Because Mike Tyson's Punch Out was better than both of them and all 3 of them delivered in the entertainment department for me. Did they need to have "standard" comparisons to be successful? No. They're video games and they are created for entertainment value. If you're so hung up on the WoW system and are mad about the SWTOR system, why in the hell are you still here?

 

In my head, this is what you sound like:

 

"I'm so mad that Punch Out doesn't have the Rupy system. I am so mad that Punch Out doesn't have items I can purchase with my hard earned money. TO THE FORUMS!"

[BlackZoback]

World of Warcraft didn't have a $200 million budget and several hundred (300+) developers working on it, sadly.

 

Star Wars The Old Republic did. Consider that for a second. Consider the amount of work you do for whatever salary you earn, then scale that up to $200 million, then look at the game, and then honestly answer if you think those developers did $200 million worth of work.

 

Doesn't matter, it was still released with a 67million dollar price tag(the highest for a mmo at the time) and was unplayable for most part.

 

Even rift had a better launch then WoW and they didn't have the price tag close to ToR.

 

WoWs only real "standard" it brought to the market was that it's crucial to have a smooth launch

Edited March 26, 2012 by BlackZoback

[Theology]

GW2 Preorder April 10th.

 

That's all that matters right now.

[Caelrie]

Agree and WoW is handing out free 80's like candy. That tells me the big dog is scared of the new big kid on the block.

 

Who cares? 80 isn't max level.

[Dawgtide]

Frankly I do get mildly upset that the vast majority of the population don't seem to understand what are quite simple concepts. I do get upset that objectivity seems to escape most people, that their "acadmic" opinions are dirtied by bias, and that they seem perfectly willing to allow irrational bias to dictate their thoughts and opinions.

 

I get upset because people START with an affirmation, and then build an argument around it. "Star Wars is good. How can I prove Star Wars is good?" What people should be doing is going, "Star Wars has..... therefore Star Wars is good/bad."

 

And if someone else is doing something better than Star Wars, like WoW does Dungeon Finding better than Star Wars, why should the fact that I mention WoW ruin the point? Yeah, WoW lost some subs and it's clearly in decline. Yeah, it doesn't do everything perfectly. Yeah, it's aged. Yeah, it's had 10 years of development. It STILL does Dungeon Finding better than Star Wars ;D

 

And Star Wars does Storytelling better than WoW. See there, we both have 1 good thing going for each now.

[PeaceKeePin]

What the he11 is a Pokemon..?