PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Ganelon]

What I don't get is why are people in such a rush to kick players from groups?

 

That has absolutely nothing to do with the subject being discussed.

[Drewser]

That has absolutely nothing to do with the subject being discussed.

 

Sure it does, since people have stated they would use live logs for that specific purpose.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Drewser

[Frostvein]

What I don't get is why are people in such a rush to kick players from groups?

 

 

Nobody is in a rush to kick anybody. Its part of this huge misconception that is being perpetrated, and that is that meters are bad because some people use them in a mean way.

 

The only time people really get "kicked" is from pugs, and typically the people getting kicked are the ones who are holding the rest of the group back from progressing. That, or the person is pulling numbers far far below the minimum or acceptable requirements.

 

Are there situations where people are kicked for no good reason? Sure. But that happens in game currently without meters.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Frostvein

[Fatpob]

I have played WoW for long time, and Recount/damage meters are a double edged sword for sure.

 

However there needs to be some way to identify/measure how well you are doing as DPS.

There are so many possibilities in where you can go wrong, rotation, spec choice, gear and mods used.

 

Having a way to measure yourself is pretty much needed.

 

In a guild/friends group competition is healthy, after all we all want to be top (probably) or at least to know our contribution is actually worthwhile.

 

Without a Combat Log or measurement tool you could think you are ace, spamming your rotation in your shiny gear, with the most awesome spec in the world, whiclst in reality your DPS is terrible.

 

Elitism will exist without combat logs, as people will make judgements on gear and spec - and if they have read somewhere it's sub-par and the group has a wipe - that person will be kicked.

 

So it's simple you have to take the rough with the smooth - there are going to be some special ones who kick people on low DPS - for that you have /ignore

 

There will be others who actually help and advise folk, because they know the best way to beat a team encounter is via a team.

 

So give us either a private non-shareable meter (though of course we will post in chat) or a add on

[Matte_Black]

So, do you find relevance in stories about people getting alienated via combat metrics too?

 

As far as I've seen that's been the entire basis of their argument.

 

I find relevance in people being alienated by metrics. Some don't want to be judged by them and others just don't want metrics highlighted in their play experience. The more available those metrics are and out in the spotlight, the more those people will be alienated. Controlling consent solves it for those who don't want to be judged. Keeping the info out-of-game mitigates the impact of the data being made available at all on the focus of the play experience. Aside from real-time access and the ability to judge others, combat log fans are getting the rest of what they wanted over the present state of the game.

 

"The real concern is whether public, real-time logs would INCREASE the undesirable elitist behaviors."

 

There really is no specific evidence to support this claim either way. I would look towards examples of games that existed and still exist fine with combat logs. I don't know of any games that did not have combat logs, then added them, unfortunately.

 

"and also flavor the player culture in a less story-oriented, more metrics-oriented direction by more strongly supporting the focus and sharing of combat data without consent."

 

It's generally bad form to cut-up and re-punctuate something you are quoting. Here's the original version. " The real concern is whether public, real-time logs would INCREASE the undesirable elitist behaviors (and also flavor the player culture in a less story-oriented, more metrics-oriented direction) by more strongly supporting the focus and sharing of combat data without consent."

 

real-time combat logs and combat metrics wouldn't change anything for people that wouldn't be bothered to use them.

 

By their simple inclusion, players would take such logs as an endorsement to play the game by the numbers and cause others to do so as well. "Why did they give them to us, if we weren't supposed to worry about DPS?" Likely, they'd feel entitled to judge others and demand statistically optimized play of all. To some extent, having the game embrace parsing and sharing everyones data lends an air of authority to those who would do the judging. In all honesty, I think such an endorsement and authority supporting metrics-driven play is as much what is wanted as the data. I can't say for certain, but it seems this is alot of the reason BioWare chose to give us logs they way they have.

[DarthKhaos]

I have played WoW for long time, and Recount/damage meters are a double edged sword for sure.

 

However there needs to be some way to identify/measure how well you are doing as DPS.

There are so many possibilities in where you can go wrong, rotation, spec choice, gear and mods used.

 

Having a way to measure yourself is pretty much needed.

 

In a guild/friends group competition is healthy, after all we all want to be top (probably) or at least to know our contribution is actually worthwhile.

 

Without a Combat Log or measurement tool you could think you are ace, spamming your rotation in your shiny gear, with the most awesome spec in the world, whiclst in reality your DPS is terrible.

 

Elitism will exist without combat logs, as people will make judgements on gear and spec - and if they have read somewhere it's sub-par and the group has a wipe - that person will be kicked.

 

So it's simple you have to take the rough with the smooth - there are going to be some special ones who kick people on low DPS - for that you have /ignore

 

There will be others who actually help and advise folk, because they know the best way to beat a team encounter is via a team.

 

So give us either a private non-shareable meter (though of course we will post in chat) or a add on

So according to you Private Combat Logs is enough. Cool.

[Scoobings]

I thought this was something they want to do. My understanding was this is a temporary band-aid fix until they can figure out how to stop the combat log from crashing this crappy, crappy engine (I would love to use stronger words here). As far as I'm concerned, their only mistake here is chosing to use Hero in the first place. They're trying to get the logs working, it's just that they can't.

[Matte_Black]

What I don't get is why are people in such a rush to kick players from groups?

 

I think such people are a pretty small minority. These are the ones complaining about wasted time generally. I'd say it would be more accurate that "people are in a rush to have others play the way they want". Some small percentage also might like the confrontation or showing off their higher metrics but, mostly players asking for such combat log features beyond having their own data at the end are looking for leverage in causing others to perform to their standards.

 

The threat of kicking you out is just a large part of the leverage. They have a much stronger position to dictate your actions if you are half invested in the run as opposed to after it is done and you can just head off to another group. This is why some want the info second by second.

[Matte_Black]

I thought this was something they want to do. My understanding was this is a temporary band-aid fix until they can figure out how to stop the combat log from crashing this crappy, crappy engine (I would love to use stronger words here). As far as I'm concerned, their only mistake here is chosing to use Hero in the first place. They're trying to get the logs working, it's just that they can't.

 

They have stated that they wanted players to have consent over sharing their performance data because many players have expressed concern about having that data misused to their detriment.

[MightofCarthage]

Ill bet that almost everyone who voted ( either way ) doesn't raid anyway in SWTOR.

The poll is a waste of time because the game will be a forgotten memory when GW2 comes out.

 

I wouldn't waste your time. Guild Wars 2 is a mess.

[Stupiddrummer]

I find relevance in people being alienated by metrics. Some don't want to be judged by them and others just don't want metrics highlighted in their play experience. The more available those metrics are and out in the spotlight, the more those people will be alienated. Controlling consent solves it for those who don't want to be judged. Keeping the info out-of-game mitigates the impact of the data being made available at all on the focus of the play experience. Aside from real-time access and the ability to judge others, combat log fans are getting the rest of what they wanted over the present state of the game.

 

 

 

It's generally bad form to cut-up and re-punctuate something you are quoting. Here's the original version. " The real concern is whether public, real-time logs would INCREASE the undesirable elitist behaviors (and also flavor the player culture in a less story-oriented, more metrics-oriented direction) by more strongly supporting the focus and sharing of combat data without consent."

 

 

 

By their simple inclusion, players would take such logs as an endorsement to play the game by the numbers and cause others to do so as well. "Why did they give them to us, if we weren't supposed to worry about DPS?" Likely, they'd feel entitled to judge others and demand statistically optimized play of all. To some extent, having the game embrace parsing and sharing everyones data lends an air of authority to those who would do the judging. In all honesty, I think such an endorsement and authority supporting metrics-driven play is as much what is wanted as the data. I can't say for certain, but it seems this is alot of the reason BioWare chose to give us logs they way they have.

 

So you're ok with anecdotes, as long as it supports your argument. That's productive.

 

Saying that combat logs will lead to an increase in undesirable behavior is a bold assumption and grounded in absolutely zero evidence. Other games have existed fine with combat logs. You're going to get undesirable behavior no matter what.

 

Since we dont have any models of games that didn't have combat logs and then added them, saying that adding combat logs will increase behavior is pure conjecture.

 

Saying that meters will change the culture is also a baseless claim. People that dont care about numbers will still not care about numbers. Based on how they added Cooldown effects, i can't imagine they would add DPS meters in such a way that it would force it down your throat. It would probably be an enabled feature in the options menu, like a lot of the other UI elements.

 

So stop making baseless assumptions. That is a very dangerous practice.

[Apokelypse]

Small example of why a basic, real-time combat log is needed in-game:

 

Heroic 4 group.

Only 3 of us in group, juggernaut, conceal op, mercenary.

All of us even level to +1 to the mobs.

Fairly large groups of mobs inside the instance 5-6 per group of mobs.

Several mobs in each group use crowd control abilities on us.

I was the only one using cc...humanoid mobs only..so only sleep dart.

 

Every pull, the CCed mob breaks free immediately. No one takes responsibility...awkward silence after the wipe. Someone is clearly breaking CC. I openly ask who is breaking CC/using area damage abilities/attacking the wrong target. Everyone denies doing it. Luckily the juggernaut and I are friends from a previous game and in this game as well, so we know it has to be the third guy. We ask him again...still denies it. We boot him and 2 man the heroic 4 instance with zero wipes after that.

 

All of this would have been unnecessary if we could have just looked at the combat log to see who and what was breaking CC after the first wipe instead of the 5th. We could have even explained what ability of his was breaking CC. There would have been no suspicion between the 3 of us as to who was causing it...it would have been clear fact.

 

Imagine this on a larger scale, hard mode and nightmare mode operations. Which player in a large group is making a particular mistake that is wiping the entire group? Is it more than one player doing it? Did the tank die from "standing in fire" or from not getting healed at all? The whole point of increased difficulty modes is that mistakes are more costly and therefore cannot be allowed. To not make mistakes, you need to know exactly what is going on. That is the function of a combat log...to know exactly what happened in combat. I'm sorry if people want to eat a sandwich and watch a movie while playing, but that isn't going to cut it when you have obligated yourself to progressing in a group encounter...others are depending on your performance now.

 

I think the combat log should be in-game with the toggle option for each individual player. If you don't want others to see your log when grouped, then turn yours off. The point is, don't hold others back because you feel entitled to force yourself upon them and not perform up to the necessary level to clear the content.

 

I have yet to do an operation myself in this game, and likely will not be invited to do one as BW seems determined to keep my class (concealment pve operative) gimped in terms of sustained dps, but I have raided consistently in previous games. You do not have the right to hold other paying customers back because you want them to carry you to the finish line and hide your own lack of reasonable contribution.

 

I do agree that adding an in-game combat log does open up unreasonable criticism from 12yr old e-peeners in general, that's why I think it should have an option for individual players to toggle it off.

 

I also want the in-game combat log for personal reasons. I want to have quantifiable proof of the disparity I currently notice between classes as far as performance output so we can get some actual class balance instead of unreasonable nerfs based around pvp.

[Frostvein]

You do not have the right to hold other paying customers back because you want them to carry you to the finish line and hide your own lack of reasonable contribution.

 

I agree with you 100%. The problem is Bioware doesn't.

 

I mentioned this back on page one. Bioware has decided that it is in their best interest to keep the larger casual portion of their playerbase happy, and thus have decided to forgo any advanced metrics/gameplay in order to keep them satisfied. Its the same reason why ops were the joke that they were - you cant make the game too hard without providing the proper tools.

 

Imagine H Rag with no Meters, no Combat log, No Addons, and no Macros. I'd venture a guess and call it unbeatable. You will never see anything remotely as complex as that in SWToR. So endgame raiding will continue to be ridiculously easy, because then everyone can clear it without needing advanced metrics.

 

Everyone wins is the new mantra.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Frostvein

[Matte_Black]

So you're ok with anecdotes, as long as it supports your argument. That's productive.

 

I was answering your assertion about why that post has gained no traction. One of my points was that no one was going to argue the against an anecdotal story because it is a personal tale. I am fine with anecdotes in general. When that poster goes on to use that anecdote to prove the existance of elitism, which was not in question, it doesn't exactly elicit any more discussion. Taken as a whole, the post offered little to the discussion aside from showing how elitist do exist and will use whatever they have to work with.

 

I think most people with my perspective on combat logs would agree. It's why we are hesitant to offer them more tools. Would it have been productive for us to argue what no one was questioning?

[Apokelypse]

I agree with you 100%. The problem is Bioware doesn't.

 

Imagine H Rag with no Meters, no Combat log, No Addons, and no Macros. I'd venture a guess and call it unbeatable. You will never see anything remotely as complex as that in SWToR. So endgame raiding will continue to be ridiculously easy, because then everyone can clear it without needing advanced metrics.

 

Everyone wins is the new mantra.

 

I don't really mind encounters not being overly difficult. What I do mind is failing at that same easy content because someone in your group is causing you to fail out of sheer incompetence or an extremely gimp class. Currently I play this extremely gimp class

 

I'm happy if everyone wins...just so long as everyone gets invited. Currently there is a valid stigma against the AC that I play due to lack of performance and adding the necessary tools would prove or disprove that.

[Drewser]

So you're ok with anecdotes, as long as it supports your argument. That's productive.

Saying that combat logs will lead to an increase in undesirable behavior is a bold assumption and grounded in absolutely zero evidence. Other games have existed fine with combat logs. You're going to get undesirable behavior no matter what.

 

Since we dont have any models of games that didn't have combat logs and then added them, saying that adding combat logs will increase behavior is pure conjecture.

 

Saying that meters will change the culture is also a baseless claim. People that dont care about numbers will still not care about numbers. Based on how they added Cooldown effects, i can't imagine they would add DPS meters in such a way that it would force it down your throat. It would probably be an enabled feature in the options menu, like a lot of the other UI elements.

 

So stop making baseless assumptions. That is a very dangerous practice.

 

Incorrect. Players that played before and after live logs experienced the detrimental change.

[Stupiddrummer]

Incorrect. Players that played before and after live logs experienced the detrimental change.

 

i would love an example.

[Drewser]

I agree with you 100%. The problem is Bioware doesn't.

 

I mentioned this back on page one. Bioware has decided that it is in their best interest to keep the larger casual portion of their playerbase happy, and thus have decided to forgo any advanced metrics/gameplay in order to keep them satisfied. Its the same reason why ops were the joke that they were - you cant make the game too hard without providing the proper tools.

 

Imagine H Rag with no Meters, no Combat log, No Addons, and no Macros. I'd venture a guess and call it unbeatable. You will never see anything remotely as complex as that in SWToR. So endgame raiding will continue to be ridiculously easy, because then everyone can clear it without needing advanced metrics.

 

Everyone wins is the new mantra.

 

This is the funniest argument I have seen in here. Players do not need live logs for the devs to make more challenging content.

 

In fact, it is counter intuitive.

[Drewser]

i would love an example.

 

They have been stated numerous times in this thread but you toss them all as simply being "anecdotal".

[Stupiddrummer]

I was answering your assertion about why that post has gained no traction. One of my points was that no one was going to argue the against an anecdotal story because it is a personal tale. I am fine with anecdotes in general. When that poster goes on to use that anecdote to prove the existance of elitism, which was not in question, it doesn't exactly elicit any more discussion. Taken as a whole, the post offered little to the discussion aside from showing how elitist do exist and will use whatever they have to work with.

 

I think most people with my perspective on combat logs would agree. It's why we are hesitant to offer them more tools. Would it have been productive for us to argue what no one was questioning?

 

All of the anecdotes, regardless of the side of the argument someone was on, have all just been about elitest jerks. The difference is some anecdotes are blaming jerky behavior on in game tools.

 

i'll sit here and wait for the anecdote about the guy that was immersed in the story, but once combat metrics were available, found that he could only focus on the numbers and tunnel vision DPS, only to realize months later that he couldn't even remember what he had named his character....

[Frostvein]

This is the funniest argument I have seen in here. Players do not need live logs for the devs to make more challenging content.

 

In fact, it is counter intuitive.

 

For starters, you took that out of context. The combination of no macros, no mods, no combat log and no damage meters makes what I said a true statement.

 

Further, If you read some of the arguments from earlier in this thread (the previous ones) a common complaint of the anti-meter crowd is that "logs forced the devs to create more challenging and tightly turned content"

 

And how exactly is it counter intuitive? Care to explain your position on that or would you rather remain dismissive?

[Stupiddrummer]

They have been stated numerous times in this thread but you toss them all as simply being "anecdotal".

 

I think you misunderstand. I was looking for an example of a game that didn't have logs or meters, but later added them, consequently ruining the community/game culture.

 

the closest thing that comes to mind is WoW. Which always had combat logs and meters.

 

and i'd attribute the decline in the community (the decline, be arguable in itself) to gained anonymity through cross server implements, and gear score.

 

 

edit; or if you could just name an MMO that released without combat logs or meters...lol

Edited March 23, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Matte_Black]

After reading some of the combat log threads from the test server section. I am wondering if we'll see much of an increase in combat exploits and successive fixes or nerfs based having that much more info on what triggers what in the programming.

[Frostvein]

After reading some of the combat log threads from the test server section. I am wondering if we'll see much of an increase in combat exploits and successive fixes or nerfs based having that much more info on what triggers what in the programming.

 

I'm sure we would, and that is a good thing.

[Drewser]

For starters, you took that out of context. The combination of no macros, no mods, no combat log and no damage meters makes what I said a true statement.

 

Further, If you read some of the arguments from earlier in this thread (the previous ones) a common complaint of the anti-meter crowd is that "logs forced the devs to create more challenging and tightly turned content"

 

And how exactly is it counter intuitive? Care to explain your position on that or would you rather remain dismissive?

 

Right now, as the game is, devs can make it more challenging without giving players anything. Do you agree or disagree with that?