Is Vanguard a good counter to Marauder?

[Hizoka]

well i also have a 37 marauder and 50 merc, so ive played on all sides of the fence

 

having a 37 marauder is not close to have a geared marauder at 50 with the skill to play it.

 

 

 

 

and to the other guy, you cannot keep a good sentinel/marauder between his gap closer and melee ranges. a good sentinel will be watchmen and they have no min range, good luck keeping him off you.

 

 

Sentinels have 42 seconds over 20-25% damage reduction when it comes to tech/force based attacks, guess what everything you hit with on a vanguard but HiB is tech based, so you just lost 20% of your damage for the 42 seconds of the fight, and if you live past that then you did not fight a good sentinel.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Hizoka

[GeneralVZ]

Actually I have. I'm sorry you are struggling with them.

 

They are, in the current form of Specs Pre-1.2, not as hard to counter as people make them out to be. It's a timing thing on your abilities rather then going all out face to face and expecting a good result. Minus their "immunity shield", they are fairly easy to deal with.

 

Save your CC Break for Force Choke (as that will increase their smash damage greatly if they get a full duration), keep them snared as much as possible. It's a bit costly for them to keep YOU snared so if that's what they are doing they won't be putting out much dps.

 

When they pop immunity use your first stun, they'll CC break, use your second. By the time it's over their immunity is loss.

 

If you want to get fancy if you see them pop Cloak Of Pain snare them and run away so it's duration expires, do nothing else after that first snare. (This is best taken care of after their leap since it'll be on cooldown, which they'll usually Leap > Force Choke, CC Break then run away). They'll lose 20% reduction to damage and their damage shield as a result for 30 seconds or so. It's a bit difficult to do so if you have terrain handy use it. (If I recall, it's 8 sec duration if they do not get attacked. I may be off a few numbers though)

 

To many times I see people try to go toe to toe with them, that's when they become difficult. It requires a bit more thought compared to the other classes to beat. Their bleed crits heal them but it's not nearly enough to really save them unless you mess up terribly.

 

Hi i got a tactics vanguard with BM gear (still 3 pieces champion) and this is the way i play marau/senti too and it work.Even when i was with champ gear there was no marauder that didnt die with this tactic.Of course to have all your cds in a warzone is a bit difficult but even if i dont have cc when he opens the immunity i open hold the line and run to hide until it ends.

[Gyronamics]

The last, and probably deadliest is a well geared well played Operative, which can catch you without your cooldowns and destroy you in seconds.

 

Yes and no.

 

Currently they can double their big hitter which also has a 1.5s knockdown - shoot first or hidden strike which is only usable by jumping someone from behind from stealth.

 

After doing it once they can vanish and redo it again instantly.

 

 

The vast majority of ops or smuggs however will hold back their vanish skill because that's the only way they can escape since they're really quite crap if you can see them coming and their ranged abilities are fairly meh.

[Dayfax]

Playing a lowbie Ironfist Vanguard, I don't really fear any force wielder. But then it's entirely possible I'm a nub & my opponents suck.

 

The real question is: Does stockstriking red saber wielding morons in the face ever get old?

 

And the answer is: No. No, it doesn't.

[Inayat]

A well played sentinel/marauder is a pain.

 

Trying to kite them is even more of a pain.

Either get lucky with procs and burn em down fast while

stunning when needed.

 

Or get trashed fast, period.

 

There is no other class out there that

gives me an "oh ****" feeling when getting jumped by a skilled sent/ marauder.

 

*Note that this only applies to skilled sentinel/ marauders.

There are plenty of "easy kill" ones out there.

[Rujs]

I would say no, if you want a counter to Mara/Sent you'd want Tanky Shadow or smuggler from my experience.

 

Granted there are various kinds of Vanguards, and some of them put out good dmg, but in 1:1's sent/marauders just have the better cooldowns. Watchman anyways.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Rujs

[gofortheko]

Actually I have. I'm sorry you are struggling with them.

 

They are, in the current form of Specs Pre-1.2, not as hard to counter as people make them out to be. It's a timing thing on your abilities rather then going all out face to face and expecting a good result. Minus their "immunity shield", they are fairly easy to deal with.

 

Save your CC Break for Force Choke (as that will increase their smash damage greatly if they get a full duration), keep them snared as much as possible. It's a bit costly for them to keep YOU snared so if that's what they are doing they won't be putting out much dps.

 

When they pop immunity use your first stun, they'll CC break, use your second. By the time it's over their immunity is loss.

 

If you want to get fancy if you see them pop Cloak Of Pain snare them and run away so it's duration expires, do nothing else after that first snare. (This is best taken care of after their leap since it'll be on cooldown, which they'll usually Leap > Force Choke, CC Break then run away). They'll lose 20% reduction to damage and their damage shield as a result for 30 seconds or so. It's a bit difficult to do so if you have terrain handy use it. (If I recall, it's 8 sec duration if they do not get attacked. I may be off a few numbers though)

 

To many times I see people try to go toe to toe with them, that's when they become difficult. It requires a bit more thought compared to the other classes to beat. Their bleed crits heal them but it's not nearly enough to really save them unless you mess up terribly.

 

 

Except not all Maras/sents are specced this way. I know I would never do the jump in force choke and aoe, not only is it boring, but its no where near as effective as watchman/anni. My force leap is on a short timer (12 seconds) and in a fight I can do it 2 to 3 times, depending on the target. I also have a snare that reduces your movement by 50% for 12 seconds (see how I can keep you close for most of the fight?), not to mention a 30% snare on my cauterize. I can keep pretty much any class in melee range no problem, and if they get me out I have tools to mitigate damage, or get back in range quickly.

 

The bad maras/sents blow all their tools quickly, but the key is to time them out. I fear zero BH/Trooper classes. When fighting offensive speced PT/VGs they are way more squishy and die quickly, no amount of stuns, or kiting is going to work, it just wont. I will keep them snared and in range and fact is my DPS is greater than theres, with the exception like one poster said they get multiple HIBs to work, but even then I can regen health to mitigate their dots, and have real good spike damage to counter.

 

Honestly I have beaten Battlemaster geared PTs with just some cent and champ pieces, and I know that cat is good. But yeah there are times where you are going to be able to beat maras/sents, 1. If they are not watchmen spec, they are much easier to kite. 2. if you get the drop on them for a significant amount of time. 3. all their cooldowns are down.

[Hethroin]

Except not all Maras/sents are specced this way. I know I would never do the jump in force choke and aoe, not only is it boring, but its no where near as effective as watchman/anni. My force leap is on a short timer (12 seconds) and in a fight I can do it 2 to 3 times, depending on the target. I also have a snare that reduces your movement by 50% for 12 seconds (see how I can keep you close for most of the fight?), not to mention a 30% snare on my cauterize. I can keep pretty much any class in melee range no problem, and if they get me out I have tools to mitigate damage, or get back in range quickly.

 

The bad maras/sents blow all their tools quickly, but the key is to time them out. I fear zero BH/Trooper classes. When fighting offensive speced PT/VGs they are way more squishy and die quickly, no amount of stuns, or kiting is going to work, it just wont. I will keep them snared and in range and fact is my DPS is greater than theres, with the exception like one poster said they get multiple HIBs to work, but even then I can regen health to mitigate their dots, and have real good spike damage to counter.

 

Honestly I have beaten Battlemaster geared PTs with just some cent and champ pieces, and I know that cat is good. But yeah there are times where you are going to be able to beat maras/sents, 1. If they are not watchmen spec, they are much easier to kite. 2. if you get the drop on them for a significant amount of time. 3. all their cooldowns are down.

 

Don't get me wrong, the Vangaurd vs Sentinel is not a good matchup for the vanguard, but there are strategies that the Vanguard can employ to better his chances.

 

Our snares, snare for the same amount. The Vanguard's is "permanent" or rather is auto-re-applied every 2nd or 3rd GCD, while you have to use focus to apply yours, and lose some DPS doing it. This means that sometimes there is a window of not being snared, or being less snared, for the VG. VG stuns that are used after the sentinel charges followed by snare on the move do create a little room for some kiting. Well, at least till the next force leap, or speed burst.

 

I'll repeat the importance of bursting early here, as the quicker the sentinel enters the "I have to press buttons or die" mental state the better. In this state the sentinel is off balance, this is where the rotations get missed, and resources get spent on surviving rather than killing. Early burst with a bit of luck can also allow for stuns to be use offensively, to prevent escapes or use of defensive CDs at opportune moments.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Hethroin

[kbstealer]

having a 37 marauder is not close to have a geared marauder at 50 with the skill to play it.

 

 

 

 

and to the other guy, you cannot keep a good sentinel/marauder between his gap closer and melee ranges. a good sentinel will be watchmen and they have no min range, good luck keeping him off you.

 

 

Sentinels have 42 seconds over 20-25% damage reduction when it comes to tech/force based attacks, guess what everything you hit with on a vanguard but HiB is tech based, so you just lost 20% of your damage for the 42 seconds of the fight, and if you live past that then you did not fight a good sentinel.

 

Here is where your argument fails. You're assuming that no matter what your opponent does you can overcome it, you cannot control what the other person does.

 

I've fought many fully geared bm mara's with my vanguard and its a 50/50 spit on wins/losses. Mara/sent are very hard to kill 1v1 because of their insane mobility and damage, but it is possible and it takes a little bit of knowledge of both classes to do. I watch my opponents buffs as much as i watch my own so i know what they're doing and what to expect.

 

The other thing you seem to be taking for fact is that there is no way you can be snared and los'd or otherwise confounded by geopgraphy. I've killed many mara because i dot'd then ran around a pillar or w/e was close so i could not be leapt at or attacked and kept them out of los.

 

Mara are the only class that i respect on my vanguard, everything else is just fodder, but they are by no means unbeatable 1v1.

[APthug]

Have you ever tried kiting? You could pretty much kite any melee class, if speced right.

[Tinmancreeping]

if you don't think they take skill to be good at then you do not play one or you are not a good one.

 

All that is required to be a good mara/sent is understand how skills work and having a good reaction time. And currently the dot spec is the godly 1v1, you actualy stand a chance against combat and focus if you kite and cc correctly.

[Hizoka]

All that is required to be a good mara/sent is understand how skills work and having a good reaction time. And currently the dot spec is the godly 1v1, you actualy stand a chance against combat and focus if you kite and cc correctly.

 

thats why i said nothing beats a good sentinel, a good sent will never play combat or focus as they are both terrible specs right now.

 

 

 

and to the guy a that says kite a sentinel, you cannot kite a class that can run faster then everyone and has no min range on a gap closer.

[Hethroin]

...and to the guy a that says kite a sentinel, you cannot kite a class that can run faster then everyone and has no min range on a gap closer.

 

Let's be fully honest here.

 

You cannot sustain the speed. And even though you have no min range on the gap closer you do have a 12 second cooldown. So a class with 2 stuns and a snare can kite the watchman for about 18 seconds out of the first 24 seconds of a fight; longer if the fight stared at range.

[Hizoka]

Let's be fully honest here.

 

You cannot sustain the speed. And even though you have no min range on the gap closer you do have a 12 second cooldown. So a class with 2 stuns and a snare can kite the watchman for about 18 seconds out of the first 24 seconds of a fight; longer if the fight stared at range.

 

come on now, cryo is instant full resolve, so you get 4 seconds on him MAYBE then your next CC is worthless, hes got dots rolling on you that are healing him.

 

 

a Vanguard can beat a bad mara/sent, a good mara/sent will eat though them without any effort. The thing is the number of skilled marauders out there are prolly countable on 1 hand for each server.

[Kesrik]

come on now, cryo is instant full resolve, so you get 4 seconds on him MAYBE then your next CC is worthless, hes got dots rolling on you that are healing him.

 

Cryo is actually only 800 resolve, so you can definitely CC him again after. Kind of shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Better stick to PvE.

 

On topic: Whether or not you win as a full Assault depends a lot on if you can hit him with Stealth Scan when he tries to Camou your initial burst.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Kesrik

[Raggok]

The tactics/assault hybrid build with Hold the Line and Degauss while running Plasma Cell probably has the best chance since you can immune and/or break the roots and snares while snaring the Marauder in return yourself.

 

After that, pure assault probably stands the best chance in a damage race. But, IMO the fight favors the Marauder as the room for error and mistake is smaller for the Vanguard.

 

Tactics can do alright with Hold the Line, but has a hard time winning the damage race.

 

This is a real bad matchup for Shield since their damage hurts us and Shield can't kite effectively.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Raggok

[Anelyn]

honestly a good marauder has the tools to kill every other class with ease in a 1v1 situation. Your best bet when you find a marauder is go find a friend then its a pretty even fight. Its not that marauders are OP its just they have the tools to fight anyone regardless of AC simply because they have double the tools of everyone else. The drawback is you need double the skill to play one on that level.

 

 

TL;DR - No-one is a counter to a geared skill Marauder/Sentinel.

 

False. Marauders have big problems with balance shadows (in fact, everyone has, but we were talking about marauders). We are only class / AC that can beat them regularly through their CDs.

[Taunque]

I don't think many of you guys understand what a true "counter" class really is. A good litmus test is when two players of equal skill and gear duel each other and make no tactical mistakes. When the outcome is still 90% win ratio for one class vs one other class, then you have a counter (frost mage vs arms warrior). But when one class performs 90% against multiple classes, then you simply have an overpowered dueling class (TBC warlock pre-nerf).

 

The sentinel/marauder belongs to the latter group. Whether dueling ability means anything in SWTOR is another issue. I'm not advocating a nerf just because of 1v1 capability.

[Danapa]

as a shield specialist with full Bm tank gear i laugh at marauders while they try to kill me since they do mostly "white damage" and my defenses proc a lot and they barely scratch me. Edited March 24, 2012 by Danapa

[Raggok]

as a shield specialist with full Bm tank gear i laugh at marauders while they try to kill me since they do mostly "white damage" and my defenses proc a lot and they barely scratch me.

 

The marauders that you beat like that are not playing properly and aren't using the correct build. Yes, marauders not using the best build and gameplay are easy to kill.

[Lhaim]

I have a v70 vanguard and a v66 sentinel.

 

The classes that are hard to beat are properly played Snipers and hybrid Sorcs.

 

Tank-Hybrid Assasins/Shadows are pretty much un****able in 1o1 atm.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Lhaim

[me_unknown]

as a shield specialist with full Bm tank gear i laugh at marauders while they try to kill me since they do mostly "white damage" and my defenses proc a lot and they barely scratch me.

 

as the one below you already said: you are fighting very bad marauders/sentinels.

 

actually, one of if not the best build is watchman and the damage they do is >80% not white! it even ignores armor!

 

to win against such a sentinel/marauder you must kite him. though with an iron fist like build it works well if you know how to.

[me_unknown]

The classes that are hard to beat are properly played Snipers and hybrid Sorcs.

i hope you ment hybrid sorcs as healer/dd hybrid. otherwise you are totally wrong.

[ComeAndSee]

Good Marauders can trash me 1v1. It's not even a fight.

 

Only saving grace is there's 3-5 good ones on my entire server and the rest are bad.

Edited March 26, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[rydgaze]

Good Marauders can trash me 1v1. It's not even a fight.

 

Only saving grace is there's 3-5 good ones on my entire server and the rest are bad.

 

While I agree good marauders can take anyone including us, it definitely is not that easy and they have to work for it. If we both start with all cool downs and at range, it can go either way, if they get the jump and we cant kite, then they can usually win, but they will be left with 20% of their health at end (assault spec in BM gear + biochem btw)