Tanks and somethings they may not tell you

[RDeanOU]

@RDeanOU:

 

where have you been getting ur numbers? if they aren't talanted to reduce threat, a healer that does 100 dmg generates as much threat as a dps that deals 100 dmg

 

Im curious what your sources are

 

It is common knowledge that healing generates threat at 50% the rate of damage. This is well established.

[thorizdin]

@RDeanOU:

 

where have you been getting ur numbers? if they aren't talanted to reduce threat, a healer that does 100 dmg generates as much threat as a dps that deals 100 dmg

 

Im curious what your sources are

 

Most of the testing was done over at sithwarrior.com, but the 1/2 threat from healing has been confirmed by numerous people

[Ibiza-Vin]

@RDeanOU:

 

where have you been getting ur numbers? if they aren't talanted to reduce threat, a healer that does 100 dmg generates as much threat as a dps that deals 100 dmg

 

Im curious what your sources are

 

A healer who deals 100 points of DAMAGE generates the same threat as a dps doing 100 dmg, yes. But a healer who HEALS 100 points of damage will get 50% threat. Not trying to nitpick, just clarifying.

 

From Kor on sithwarrior.com:

 

Current threat understanding is that all damage done generates an equal amount of threat. Tanks generate 50% more, so 1 damage = 1.5 threat. Healing generates 50% less, so 1 healing = 0.5 threat. Unknown as to whether healing threat is applied equally to all targets, or split between targets as it was in WoW (ie. in WoW, if you were against 5 targets, healing the tank for 10 HP would generate 10*0.5 = 5 threat, split among targets, so 1 threat per target). Threat is pulled at 110% of the current aggro target's threat if the new threat target is in melee range, 130% if they are not.

 

Link to thread: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-Threat-conversation?page=2

[grallmate]

I'm just gonna put this out there as a summary of whats been said so far with some clarifications to simplify it for those who are worried about numbers.

 

At the start of a pull, the (presumably) tank generates X threat on all Z mobs + Y damage on the mob(s) attacked first. Assuming worst case for the healer where the tank and DPS do not hit any of the adds leaving them all on X threat. The healer then heals for H generating H/2Z threat on all Z mobs.

 

Plugging in some arbitrary numbers(X = 1, Y = 100, H = 100, Z = 4) we get:

Primary mob threat: 101 on tank

Adds threat: 12.5 on healer, 1 on tank, 0 on DPS.

Healer threat is >130% so mobs attack healer.

 

Lets add guard to the healer, reducing threat generation by 20%.

Primary mob threat: 101 on tank (unchanged)

Adds threat: 10 on healer, 1 on tank, 0 on DPS.

Healer threat is >130% so mobs attack healer.

 

For clarity, I have used X=1 as initial threat is negligible but 'there' and an unknown value and from a programming perspective 1 makes sense. Y = H = 100 provides nice round figures and is easily salable. Z = 4 is arguably an average pull. I have assumed the DPS is focusing on the primary mob and ignoring the adds.

 

As we can see there, it doesn't prevent the adds from jumping to the healer. In fact it would have to reduce threat by 90% to have an effect, and due to rounding I doubt it would work out even then. Yes I know I have ignored class abilities that reduce threat and that the numbers are more complex, but 20% is significantly less than the (approx) 90% required for this to make a difference.

 

It is also worth noting that this only applies to the first act of healing. A second heal, even at 90% threat reduction, will make the adds switch to the healer anyway. The only way to keep adds off of the healer is for the tank (or DPS) to generate more threat on them. Guard will not make a difference.

 

Appendix - Instance where Guarding the healer *MIGHT* make a difference.

 

1. A pull with 40 mobs. Using the above figures this would drop the healers threat to 1 (for the first casting) Subsequent heals would push this number over the tanks threat and result in the mobs attacking the healer. However, this affects only the first heal, and with 40 mobs I suspect you would need more then 1 heal unless they were so trivial that the healer wasn't required anyway.

 

2. A mob is capable of dealing (aoe) damage equal to 100%-104% of the healers HP. Guard would keep the healer up, however Force Shield or similar would do it better. If the mob can deal 105% or more of the healers HP it would kill them anyway. if they deal less than 100% the healer would survive regardless

 

Both of these instances are negligible. If I have overlooked or misunderstood anything feel free to correct me.

[RDeanOU]

I'm just gonna put this out there as a summary of whats been said so far with some clarifications to simplify it for those who are worried about numbers.

 

At the start of a pull, the (presumably) tank generates X threat on all Z mobs + Y damage on the mob(s) attacked first. Assuming worst case for the healer where the tank and DPS do not hit any of the adds leaving them all on X threat. The healer then heals for H generating H/2Z threat on all Z mobs.

 

Plugging in some arbitrary numbers(X = 1, Y = 100, H = 100, Z = 4) we get:

Primary mob threat: 101 on tank

Adds threat: 12.5 on healer, 1 on tank, 0 on DPS.

Healer threat is >130% so mobs attack healer.

 

Lets add guard to the healer, reducing threat generation by 20%.

Primary mob threat: 101 on tank (unchanged)

Adds threat: 10 on healer, 1 on tank, 0 on DPS.

Healer threat is >130% so mobs attack healer.

 

For clarity, I have used X=1 as initial threat is negligible but 'there' and an unknown value and from a programming perspective 1 makes sense. Y = H = 100 provides nice round figures and is easily salable. Z = 4 is arguably an average pull. I have assumed the DPS is focusing on the primary mob and ignoring the adds.

 

As we can see there, it doesn't prevent the adds from jumping to the healer. In fact it would have to reduce threat by 90% to have an effect, and due to rounding I doubt it would work out even then. Yes I know I have ignored class abilities that reduce threat and that the numbers are more complex, but 20% is significantly less than the (approx) 90% required for this to make a difference.

 

It is also worth noting that this only applies to the first act of healing. A second heal, even at 90% threat reduction, will make the adds switch to the healer anyway. The only way to keep adds off of the healer is for the tank (or DPS) to generate more threat on them. Guard will not make a difference.

 

Appendix - Instance where Guarding the healer *MIGHT* make a difference.

 

1. A pull with 40 mobs. Using the above figures this would drop the healers threat to 1 (for the first casting) Subsequent heals would push this number over the tanks threat and result in the mobs attacking the healer. However, this affects only the first heal, and with 40 mobs I suspect you would need more then 1 heal unless they were so trivial that the healer wasn't required anyway.

 

2. A mob is capable of dealing (aoe) damage equal to 100%-104% of the healers HP. Guard would keep the healer up, however Force Shield or similar would do it better. If the mob can deal 105% or more of the healers HP it would kill them anyway. if they deal less than 100% the healer would survive regardless

 

Both of these instances are negligible. If I have overlooked or misunderstood anything feel free to correct me.

 

Fantastic summary and puts some numbers to what I have been saying. Guard isn't going to be helpful to healers that are pulling aggro on unattended mobs. The way the mechanics of threat work it just never makes sense to guard a healer.

 

It's almost as if the ability was built with the idea that we would use it on dps....

[RDeanOU]

A healer who deals 100 points of DAMAGE generates the same threat as a dps doing 100 dmg, yes. But a healer who HEALS 100 points of damage will get 50% threat. Not trying to nitpick, just clarifying.

 

Thank you again Ibiza-Vin for clarification.

 

I didn't even notice that he mentioned damage. I wonder if that was intended. Surely he recognizes that we are talking about threat from heals.

[_Zorth_]

If healer pulls aggro of you, you are doing something wrong.. or the healer has not got a few points spent in the threat reduction talents.

 

probably both..

Edited April 7, 2012 by _Zorth_

[GlennWippenberg]

"I should be the one pulling, but I don't mind the challenge of running around like a chicken with its head cut off to keep you alive."

[stephenjohnp]

Haha, you should guard the highest threat dealer OR someone who's low and HP and needs the extra protection whilst healing is coming in.

 

Sorry to say OP, but you're a poor Tank.

Edited April 8, 2012 by stephenjohnp

[Ssinssrigg]

"Okay, guys, here's the new tactic; I'm going to pull, AoE taunt..

 

...

 

And then use my in-combat stealth. Ready? GO!"

[DustomaticGXC]

In my experience as a tank and playing dps on alts, most tanks who complain about dps taking agro are really bad tanks.

 

It was always like this in WoW, and it's holding true here in TOR.

[RDeanOU]

In my experience as a tank and playing dps on alts, most tanks who complain about dps taking agro are really bad tanks.

 

It was always like this in WoW, and it's holding true here in TOR.

 

It depends on what you mean.

 

Threat in WoW is a complete joke and has been for some time. TOR isn't that way. I can't walk into a group of mobs and just spam a high threat aoe ability in this game. Those abilities simply don't exist. I don't generally have threat issues, but at least with Guardian tanks we don't have a lot of tools besides taunt to keep aggro. Fortunately, taunt builds threat in this game unlike in WoW.

 

Now, I don't complain if I do lose threat to a dps. I adjust what I am doing and try harder. So maybe the "complain" part is true, but I don't think you can equate the ease of keeping threat in WoW with TOR. They are just two completely different animals.

[DustomaticGXC]

It depends on what you mean.

 

Threat in WoW is a complete joke and has been for some time. TOR isn't that way. I can't walk into a group of mobs and just spam a high threat aoe ability in this game. Those abilities simply don't exist. I don't generally have threat issues, but at least with Guardian tanks we don't have a lot of tools besides taunt to keep aggro. Fortunately, taunt builds threat in this game unlike in WoW.

 

Now, I don't complain if I do lose threat to a dps. I adjust what I am doing and try harder. So maybe the "complain" part is true, but I don't think you can equate the ease of keeping threat in WoW with TOR. They are just two completely different animals.

 

I'm talking the entire lifespan of WoW. In the beginning, when we weren't even sure which abilities were high-threat and quite a few dps classes had no threat dump, all the way up to 4.0 when threat wasn't even an issue. For some reason, tanks like to think they're great just because they're tanks. As if they couldn't possibly be doing anything wrong. Well, any tank who has a dps alt can tell you: there are garbage tanks all over the place.

 

There's nothing more annoying than a tank who thinks he knows what he's doing talking down to you while you're on a dps alt as if you're a lower life form and he's doing you a favor by allowing you to share in his suck while he takes 3x as long as he should tanking an instance, screws up over and over and blames it on you and the other dps, and then comes to the forums and fishes for sympathy from other horrible tanks.

 

Learn how to tank or ****. Stop blaming everybody else.

[opriv]

I would say in "many" cases it is best to put guard on the top dps. However, there are boss fights where aggro revolves. I am thinking of both the black talon and boarding party end boss fights.

 

In those cases, I always put guard on the healer.

 

 

My alt is a healer as well, and while I can heal through a dps pulling aggro, if something goes wrong like a broken cc and I get targeted, it starts to get fuzzy fast.

[RDeanOU]

I'm talking the entire lifespan of WoW. In the beginning, when we weren't even sure which abilities were high-threat and quite a few dps classes had no threat dump, all the way up to 4.0 when threat wasn't even an issue. For some reason, tanks like to think they're great just because they're tanks. As if they couldn't possibly be doing anything wrong. Well, any tank who has a dps alt can tell you: there are garbage tanks all over the place.

 

There's nothing more annoying than a tank who thinks he knows what he's doing talking down to you while you're on a dps alt as if you're a lower life form and he's doing you a favor by allowing you to share in his suck while he takes 3x as long as he should tanking an instance, screws up over and over and blames it on you and the other dps, and then comes to the forums and fishes for sympathy from other horrible tanks.

 

Learn how to tank or ****. Stop blaming everybody else.

 

There are bads that play every role. The thing in this game is that they have made the dps role much more important by giving every boss encounter an enrage timer. That means that good dps are now just as vital to success in an FP as good tanks and good heals. That makes it harder for the tank entitlement to take root I think. I actually haven't seen it in this game nearly to the extent of what it was in WoW.

[RDeanOU]

I would say in "many" cases it is best to put guard on the top dps. However, there are boss fights where aggro revolves. I am thinking of both the black talon and boarding party end boss fights.

 

In those cases, I always put guard on the healer.

 

 

My alt is a healer as well, and while I can heal through a dps pulling aggro, if something goes wrong like a broken cc and I get targeted, it starts to get fuzzy fast.

 

Did you even read any of the thread before you posted this reply? Guarding the healer doesn't help when cc breaks and they get targeted. Do you realize that the damage reduction from guard in pve is a pathetic 5%?

 

The fights you mention don't have revolving aggro as far as I can tell. They have bosses with abilities that randomly target party members. Threat is still an issue on these fights and the threat reduction from guard is still useful for the top dps in these fights.

 

It is never the best use of guard to put it on a healer. People who think it is mostly think they are getting the pvp benefit of the buff and transferring 50% damage from the target to the tank. Using it on the healer just in case they get targeted is reducing an aggro management tool to the most pathetic bubble in the history of any mmo.

 

It is right to use guard on the top dps in EVERY case....not just in many or most cases.

[opriv]

Did you even read any of the thread before you posted this reply? Guarding the healer doesn't help when cc breaks and they get targeted. Do you realize that the damage reduction from guard in pve is a pathetic 5%?

 

The fights you mention don't have revolving aggro as far as I can tell. They have bosses with abilities that randomly target party members. Threat is still an issue on these fights and the threat reduction from guard is still useful for the top dps in these fights.

 

It is never the best use of guard to put it on a healer. People who think it is mostly think they are getting the pvp benefit of the buff and transferring 50% damage from the target to the tank. Using it on the healer just in case they get targeted is reducing an aggro management tool to the most pathetic bubble in the history of any mmo.

 

It is right to use guard on the top dps in EVERY case....not just in many or most cases.

 

What's with the attitude? You make a good point about 5% reduction but its better than nothing and I don't have aggro issue when I do it.

[RDeanOU]

What's with the attitude? You make a good point about 5% reduction but its better than nothing and I don't have aggro issue when I do it.

 

The attitude comes from the fact that this thread has already covered this. A 5% damage reduction on a healer is insignificant.

 

The melee dps takes more damage and has a greater chance to rip aggro. Putting guard on a healer who takes less damage overall, isn't always in the range of the buff, and will never benefit from the primary PVE function of the buff (threat reduction) is simply foolish.

 

If you want to waste the buff because you don't think you need it then fine, but it's frustrating to listen to people claim that it is ever the best use of the buff to completely throw it away by putting it on a healer.

[Ghira]

So I am a healer. It's all I do.

 

I cannot remember ever pulling something off a tank. Even if I all out damage, as I'm healing spec, I can't outgun the real firepower in the group.

 

I have sometimes taken damage at the start of a fight from ranged mobs that have not yet been hit. Generally a bubble and a heal or two are enough to take care of it while someone else gets their attention.

 

Assuming then that I take 15k damage at the start of the fight, a 5% reduction means 750 damage. This would be unusual, by the way. It is generally less.

 

I want guard on the melee most likely to yank something of the tank. If it's a tie, then the one with the least armor. Even if they never get threat, their proximity means they are more likely to get hit and generally take more than 15k damage in a significant fight. Thus, even for the 5% damage reduction, it's more useful on melee.

 

'Bout the only time I have had guard on me was when running with two tank specced juggernauts through Kaon and the one dps melee already had it (turret fight).

Edited April 11, 2012 by Ghira

[OlosBC]

So I am a healer. It's all I do.

 

I cannot remember ever pulling something off a tank. Even if I all out damage, as I'm healing spec, I can't outgun the real firepower in the group.

 

I have sometimes taken damage at the start of a fight from ranged mobs that have not yet been hit. Generally a bubble and a heal or two are enough to take care of it while someone else gets their attention.

 

Assuming then that I take 15k damage at the start of the fight, a 5% reduction means 750 damage. This would be unusual, by the way. It is generally less.

 

I want guard on the melee most likely to yank something of the tank. If it's a tie, then the one with the least armor. Even if they never get threat, their proximity means they are more likely to get hit and generally take more than 15k damage in a significant fight. Thus, even for the 5% damage reduction, it's more useful on melee.

 

'Bout the only time I have had guard on me was when running with two tank specced juggernauts through Kaon and the one dps melee already had it (turret fight).

 

 

This guy knows what time it is.

[midnitemonster]

This guy knows what time it is.

 

Miller time?

[TwistedKitten]

Miller time?

 

Hammer time.

[Zalekanzer]

Hammer time.

Adventure Time!

[TheronFett]

Single most effective use is to put the guard on healer.

 

No.

 

Healing has a +0.5 threat modifier.

Attacks have a +1.0 threat modifier.

Attacks using a tanking stance have a +1.5 threat modifier.

Guard has a - threat modifier.

 

The above is fact. Why on earth would you use Guard on a healer? You should be using it on the highest DPS in the group, ideally one in melee range.

Edited April 19, 2012 by TheronFett

[_gideon]

Further to the above post, while vague as ever, the April 20th Q&A did reveal that healing aggro is split evenly across all mobs in combat.

 

If a healer takes aggro on a mob it is not because they have high aggro on that mob, it's because they have the only aggro on that mob.

Edited April 22, 2012 by _gideon