Death of a Tanky-Tank

[MartyrLXXVII]

I'm torn between laughing at you and helping you, I decided the second. Look up the iron fist spec, get your combat tech set, stop spamming flame sweep, enjoy your 300k damage medal and all the protection medals

 

Truth.

 

My fresh 50 Iron Fist with only cent gear, not even all cent, can still hit 100k damage and 40-60k prot. With proper gear I see no problem getting 300k.

[Comfterbilly]

I completely agree that tanks need buff... not on the damage output but on the defensive side. Armor and defense shouldn't be bypassed by 50% of the incoming attacks (its actually more then that seeing the population of sage/sorc).

 

But enough of that guy... Tanks in PvP are simply not tanks. Sure they provide some utility but not enough to justify the amount of armor-bypass against them.

 

QFT.

 

it varies from class to class, as some tank specs have better dps skills (guaranteed crits), but the way i would describe it is: either your defense isn't substantial enough to buy you time for your damage to do its job, or your damage isn't substantial enough to do its jobs before your defense wears off.

 

this is perhaps most noticeable on juggs, relative to any other tanking class. Of the 3 tanking ac's per faction, it is the only ac that actually has its damage handicapped by being in tank stance. a jugg will generate less rage per rage generating ability while in tank stance, while a bh generates no more heat from using their tank ammo vs dps ammo(and still have heat venting talents in the tree), same with assassin (and a sin can buff their force regen from tank talents).

 

The trade off i suppose is that juggs get a 40 percent damage reduction on a 3 minute cd that lasts for 10 seconds, which the other tank trees dont have, but its hardly a reasonable trade off. The other issue is defense vs pvp, and the attacks that don't apply to defense being rather numerous.

 

Now for solutions: If it were me, i could understand not wanting to mess around with their damage or their defense due to fears of imbalance in and outside of pvp. One possible fix would be to give tanks a damage debuff to apply to targets, that doesnt stack and is cancelled out by the use of taunts (or simply have taunts reduce damage against the tank, but by a smaller % then the damage reduction against other players from taunt).

 

^qft^

 

People aren't saying they want their tanks damage buffed, they're saying the defense spec is broken. Get enough healers on your team and it doesn't matter who's a tank: everyone's a tank; but when that damage absorption is really needed by a team with a more proper amount of healers - i.e. when the tank is called upon to absorb and survive, tank specs roundly agree that the class mechanics fall apart.

 

- 1 - the armor doesn't mitigate

- 2 - the shield doesn't mitigate

- 3 - the defensive cd's don't last long enough/don't pop quick enough

- 4 - all his endurance stats are moot because almost everyone has high HP

 

Tanks aren't saying "I want high survivability and I want high DPS too," they're saying "I want my class's defensive mechanics to work in a way that mitigates DPS class mechanics." In other words they don't say they should win 1v1 by being given higher DPS; they just have a reasonable expectation that their defensive skills when properly employed should allow them the mitigation they need to eventually wear the DPS player's health down too.

 

People who disagree are pretty much saying its okay for DPS specs to be designed to blast through all a tank spec's defenses but - but - the tank spec'ed player should still have DPS too low to even try to compensate without giving up the tank spec altogether.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Comfterbilly

[finkelmana]

Tanks do great in PvP. You have to remember PvP is a team event, not 1v1.

 

I do agree with other posters that tanks lack the survivability in PvP, when it comes to 1v1. Healers can heal themselves through a tanks damage. DPS out damages us and their attacks bypass our mitigation. Our "PvP" ability - taunts - are useless when fighting 1v1.

 

I think the simple solution is to give tanks more HP, perhaps a 12.5 modifier, instead of 10.

[RiXTran]

As an immortal spec jugg I can say first hand with a decent healer and properly using aoe taunt and guard you can effectively stay alive for a very long periods of time in a group setting.

 

Alone however survivability is still high 1v1 requires alot more utilization of interrupts/stuns/C'Cs/cooldowns in order to survive.

 

Even when 1.2 comes along. Tanks are still invaluable if BW continues with objective base pvp.

[Cobb]

Really? You don't think taunting players onto you, disrupting enemy casters, and staying alive on an objective is valuable?

 

Wow.... just wow.

 

And what about guard? I play a healer in pvp and when someone guards me we're unstoppable. I can't believe you guys think tank specs are bad. Do you win WZ a lot? Do you play the objectives or try to turn it into deathmatch?

 

 

So, taunting and guarding is valuable.

 

You realize that tank ACs get both taunts and guard abilities even if they spec DPS, right? And that (as far as I can tell), speccing in the tank tree does nothing to boost either taunt or guard abilities?

 

 

In other words... I can still bubble and taunt just fine as a Jedi Shadow, even if I'm specced into the Infil or Balance trees.

[MartyrLXXVII]

So, taunting and guarding is valuable.

 

You realize that tank ACs get both taunts and guard abilities even if they spec DPS, right? And that (as far as I can tell), speccing in the tank tree does nothing to boost either taunt or guard abilities?

 

 

In other words... I can still bubble and taunt just fine as a Jedi Shadow, even if I'm specced into the Infil or Balance trees.

 

You still have to be in tank stance to use guard. But yes you have a point, that's partly why hybrids are so popular though.

 

But dps spec'ed tank ACs are less of an issue then defenses as others have said. If tank specs go the benefit of the better defenses that would even out a dps spec taunting just like a tank to a degree. But at the same time the tank cant get -too- much more survival, tank/healer pair are already insanely long lived.

[Coramac]

Guard is completely overpowered with teamwork, if people ever L2P it will be nerfed, dunno if that will ever happen.

 

Guard is completely underpowered vs. teamwork.

 

Sticky Grenade, Harpoon, Cryo, Pulse Cannon + Force Sweep ---> lawlz 20k burst in 3 seconds on tank.

 

Guard can just as easily be a liabilty.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Coramac

[Seriasx]

Tanks are rediculously OP'd in this game, they have nearly the same dmg potential as pure dps specs with more survivability and utility.

 

If you cannot suceed as a tank in this game then you should take 5 minutes to go through all of your abilities and see if your missing something.

[nToxiK]

Guard is completely underpowered vs. teamwork.

 

Sticky Grenade, Harpoon, Cryo, Pulse Cannon + Force Sweep ---> lawlz 20k burst in 3 seconds on tank.

 

Guard can just as easily be a liabilty.

 

 

I agree with this. Guard uses the defense of the person you are guarding so the more undergeared the guard target is, the more damage the tank takes. I only guard for medals right now as I drop fast when the guarded target is DPS'd.

 

Guard really needs to use the defensive stats of the tank and not the guard target.

[EternalFinality]

Tanks aren't supposed to "beat" anyone, even 1v1. They're supposed to stay alive a long time, absorbing damage via guard, reducing damage dealt to other players via taunt, and harassing casters/healers with interrupts and CC.

 

You are not meant to kill anyone or "win" fights 1v1. You are there as support.

Edited March 21, 2012 by EternalFinality

[MartyrLXXVII]

Tanks aren't supposed to "beat" anyone, even 1v1. They're supposed to stay alive a long time, absorbing damage via guard, reducing damage dealt to other players via taunt, and harassing casters/healers with interrupts and CC.

 

You are not meant to kill anyone or "win" fights 1v1. You are there as support.

 

Someone has clearly never heard of rock/paper/scissors.

[LancelotOC]

They never said they used rock paper scizzor. All we've ever heard is they balanced the classes and tested to see if they could complete the PVE content.

[EternalFinality]

Someone has clearly never heard of rock/paper/scissors.

 

Which is a bad way to balance a game.

 

Also, Bioware didn't use this model and the devs have never referenced it.

[Seriasx]

No pvp will ever be based off 1v1, if it was then we would all be playing the same class cause there would only be 1 class

[MartyrLXXVII]

They never said they used rock paper scizzor. All we've ever heard is they balanced the classes and tested to see if they could complete the PVE content.

 

Rock(tank), paper(healer), scissors(dps).

 

Just because they don't say it... This is the model the majority use even if they don't say so, its common place. Besides it really feels that way as my tank pt can kill dps but not healers.

[Coramac]

I agree with this. Guard uses the defense of the person you are guarding so the more undergeared the guard target is, the more damage the tank takes. I only guard for medals right now as I drop fast when the guarded target is DPS'd.

 

Guard really needs to use the defensive stats of the tank and not the guard target.

 

I agree with you, but I was actually bringing up the fact that if a Tank and his Guarded target are both inside an AoE, the Tank is absolutely obliterated.

[Broom]

Your PvE tanking gear underperforms in PvP?

 

Clearly not a L2P issue.

 

Do you think I should be able to tank PvE well in my PvP DPS gear?

 

Do you always jump to conclusions like that? I'm a PVPer, so er, yeah, obviously I'm in PVP gear. Full BM supercommando gear actually (pre valor buff, thx). Which, since it's dedicated PVP gear, you'd think might help you be a better PVP tank. Not.

 

And please get this right: I CHOOSE to be a PVP tank, and I'm very good at it. But claiming that TANKS do a lot of DPS is silly beyond words.

[MartyrLXXVII]

Do you always jump to conclusions like that? I'm a PVPer, so er, yeah, obviously I'm in PVP gear. Full BM supercommando gear actually (pre valor buff, thx). Which, since it's dedicated PVP gear, you'd think might help you be a better PVP tank. Not.

 

And please get this right: I CHOOSE to be a PVP tank, and I'm very good at it. But claiming that TANKS do a lot of DPS is silly beyond words.

 

All the itemization in this game is terrible, looking at all the armor for what would be most effective as a whole, I would never touch supercommando with a 10'pole. I mean the **** has lots of absorption but no shield chance. What the hell good is the absorption if the shield never pros. There is.no common sense in how they did any stats. The dps gear all has accuracy but noone ever stacks defense stats because they suck and aren't on most sets, so who gives a f about accuracy. This is why the best players mod in the pve stuff for reasonably effective stats. At least the pt dps stuff have good set bonuses.

Edited March 21, 2012 by MartyrLXXVII

[Varicite]

Your PvE tanking gear underperforms in PvP?

 

Clearly not a L2P issue.

 

Do you think I should be able to tank PvE well in my PvP DPS gear?

 

Really bad analogy for this game...

[Varicite]

Do you always jump to conclusions like that? I'm a PVPer, so er, yeah, obviously I'm in PVP gear. Full BM supercommando gear actually (pre valor buff, thx). Which, since it's dedicated PVP gear, you'd think might help you be a better PVP tank. Not.

 

And please get this right: I CHOOSE to be a PVP tank, and I'm very good at it. But claiming that TANKS do a lot of DPS is silly beyond words.

 

Tanks CAN do a very good deal of damage, most notably PT tanks.

 

However, they are not doing this in tanking gear, PvP or PvE.

 

They are doing this using either Combat Tech as Iron Fist spec, or Eliminator set as the soon-to-be-extinct-again Carolina Parakeet spec.

 

Tanks do not gain a whole lot of benefit from tanking gear in PvP, but their specs allow them to survive things that the dps specs would not. Since they receive the bulk of their defenses from flat mitigation talents and armor, this allows them to use dps gear w/out sacrificing too much.

 

Tanks in dps gear are not only still tanky, but can put out decent pressure when necessary. Obviously it won't be on par w/ pure dps specs, but if they stay alive for a while, they will post finishing numbers similar or better than a lot of dps classes, on top of their protection scores.

[furiousferret]

I personally would prefer really good dps over a Tank w/Guard. The tank loses his mobilty and we do stay alive, but you can't kill anything either. Well, you can kill something 2v1 but 2v2 I would rather take a dps Jugg that can taunt and stance dance into guard or a Mara that can use his accuracy debuff and tear. Keep in mind Guard is limited to 15m, which means you lose a ton of offensive capability babysitting a healer that really doesnt need it.

 

The few times I specced tank I was amazed how squishy I was and went back to dps.

[Squidkidz]

Tanks in dps gear are not only still tanky, but can put out decent pressure when necessary. Obviously it won't be on par w/ pure dps specs, but if they stay alive for a while, they will post finishing numbers similar or better than a lot of dps classes, on top of their protection scores.

 

^ This, as a 'sin tank I can easily put up over 100k in protection while putting up around 250k damage, and that's common, if I'm being a tryhard the numbers rise significantly.

[Broom]

If you call B.S. on that then I call it on THIS! In the same situation that you were in, I (as a healer) watched my tank (sure he was in my premade) spit out 450k damage.

 

I completely agree that tanks need buff... not on the damage output but on the defensive side. Armor and defense shouldn't be bypassed by 50% of the incoming attacks (its actually more then that seeing the population of sage/sorc). But come on man... 60k damage average? 200k is your BEST game?! Please don't deny someone else of good ability simply because you personally stand on the lowest level of mediocrity.

 

 

But enough of that guy... Tanks in PvP are simply not tanks. Sure they provide some utility but not enough to justify the amount of armor-bypass against them.

 

Maybe your tank has DPS gear. Maybe your 'tank' has a DPS or hybrid spec (you DO know that even DPS specced 'tanks' get guard, right?). Maybe your tank is not a Powertech (which I am). Maybe your tank didn't taunt or use other team defense abilities. Maybe the enemy in that game of yours made a more convenient cluster to AOE. Maybe the enemies in my match knew to interrupt my big damage attacks (all channels, except for flame sweep). And maybe you're just a teensy weensy judgemental and quick to jump to conclusions about a class you apparently don't play yourself.

 

But yes, 281K was the most damage I ever managed to do. And 60K DPS is just about my average. And if you don't believe that, you're welcome to make a PT tank, wear tank gear, and see if you can do better WITHOUT abandoning your team support role (you know, stuff like guarding healers, area taunting enemies and running balls). And then go play a true DPS, and see how much faster and easier you rack up damage.

[Squidkidz]

The few times I specced tank I was amazed how squishy I was and went back to dps.

 

Then you're not doing it right.

[BDutch]

For most of its uses, "not balanced for 1v1" is just a cop-out excuse. A good team can carry a lot of dead weight.

 

Group balance should take priority over 1v1 balance, but implying that 1v1 balance is not significant is just silly.