Why the proposed 1.2 Pyrotech changes are poorly thought out

[Kaarsa]

 

The whole point of this thread is that we will be worried about heat.

 

 

 

 

Funny thing, unload and flame thrower are heat efficient, only IM is not.

[Assaultrooper]

The whole point of this thread is that we will be worried about heat.

 

 

 

No, they reduce the feast problems but do not reduce the famine problems. With this patch it is impossible to get the "feasts" (multiple PPA procs in a row) because of the internal cooldown. It will still be possible to have "famines". The possibility of good RNG is gone; the possibility of bad RNG is still there.

 

Hey OP In the PT forums after 3 threads of discussion we came up with this compilation if you would like to check it up.

 

Link: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=370674

[Assaultrooper]

Funny thing, unload and flame thrower are heat efficient, only IM is not.

 

No they aren't all of them just leave you at the point were you started (16 heat vent in 3 secs if you started casting with 0 heat, which serves no purpose if you want to dissipate heat) not to mention all those abilities root you in place which is the reason:

 

A) we didn't choose to be mercs,

B) we are not specced into AP.

[busterbone]

You're off on the probability of 3 HIB / Rail Shots in short order. The first use doesn't have to be a proc. It's .45 * .3 or .135% for opening with 3 uses rapidly. Anytime you have HIB / Rail Shot up and Rocket Punch / Stock Strike up, you have this chance.

 

I wasn't stating the probability of 3 Rail Shots in a row, I was stating the chance of 3 PPA procs in a row. However, I still definitely agree that our current burst capabilities our much too high. I am not against nerfing our burst, I am against the method they are using to nerf it.

 

The real burst has always revolved around two HIB / Rail Shots in a short window. There's a very high probability of this occuring if you play your cards right. It's a lot of burst, but it's not out of line with what other classes can do. It is better in my opinion at least compared to many of the other classes with the rapidity which you can pull it off on a target swap

 

The only time there is a very high probability of two Rail Shots in a row is when you first begin combat. The only time Rail Shot will be off cooldown due to its natural reset (not PPA) is when you first open combat (because the current chances of not getting a PPA proc in 15 seconds is very low).

 

When you first start combat, the chances of getting two Rail Shots in a row is = to the chance of one PPA proc, which is 45% if you use Rocket Punch, or 30% if you use Flame Burst.

 

In the middle of combat, the chances of two Rail Shots in a row is = to the chances of two PPA procs in a row, which is 0.45 * 0.30 or 13.5% of the time (assuming 1 Flame Burst and 1 Rocket Punch), or 0.30 * 0.30 or 9% of the time (assuming 2 Flame Bursts). Therefore in the middle of combat, the chances of two Rail Shot procs in a row is not exactly "a very high probability".

[Ryotknife]

You have Unload, Flame Thrower, thermal det, incendiary missle if you aren't worried about heat.

 

The additional skill is expending more heat during the time PPA can proc and then reducing that heat during the ICD, and knowing how much to push and how much to reserve. You have more choices to make based on CDs available and current situation than you do now. It will take more skill to maximize your damage than it does now, good use of both vent heat and thermal override will be needed as well.

 

 

 

Those suggestions just make it a basic and boring rotation, the changes reduce the feast/famine problems of now without making it a absolute set rotation.

 

unload and incin missile are both terrible attacks. unload is just terrible, and incin missile should only be used if you are at ranged due to its low damage and insane resource cost (unless you are pyro/shieldtech hybrid)

 

flamethrower is extremely situational. it is useful if your target is near 10 M away and isnt moving, or there are just a pack of enemies in front of you. else it is useless as any movement to either side or TOWARDS the pt will render flamethrower impotent.

 

you are pretty much always better off using basic attack over unload or flamethrower because basic attack is not counterable, can proc a dot for more damage/snare, and doesnt use heat.

 

now pyro pts are going to have to spam their basic attack much more often just to keep their resources in line, thereby significantly reducing all dps.

 

i would be somewhat supportive of this change if they significantly increased the proc rate rather than the pitiful change they made.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Ryotknife

[busterbone]

Funny thing, unload and flame thrower are heat efficient, only IM is not.

 

Flame Thrower is heat efficient if it is hitting multiple targets. Using it as a single target damage-dealer is definitely not heat efficient, due to its high heat cost (25). Flame thrower deals about 2000 damage assuming one tick crits, which brings its damage/heat to 2000/25 = 80. This is roughly the efficiency of a Flame Burst / Rocket Punch that cannot proc PPA (in other words this is not efficient). In addition, the fact that it is channeled means it can be interrupted/stunned/pushed-back/moved-out of. In other words, if your Flame thrower only deals one tick of damage, it will have a damage/heat of ~700/25 = 28. Definitely not efficient.

 

Unload suffers from the same problem of being able to be interrupted/stunned/pushed-back which again greatly reduces its efficiency. In addition Unload only benefits from one talent in the entire Pyrotech talent tree (making it do +9% damage to burning targets), and thus Unload is quite low on a Powertech Pyrotech's priority rotation.

[busterbone]

OP's logic is a bit flawed. There will only be 2 potential attacks under perfect conditions that no longer receive a chance of PPA to proc.

 

Assume you get a PPA proc. 1.5 seconds later you will use Rail Shot. Now you have 2 attacks that are unable to proc PPA, at 3 seconds and 4.5 seconds.

 

The attack at 6 seconds will be able to proc it because you do not have perfect timing compared to the server, and that attack will occur at 6.2 seconds later or whatever.

 

So you need to do some rework on your calculations.

 

That is a good point: only two attacks are unable to proc PPA after you use Rail Shot. If you take a look at this thread (that a poster has recently shown me): http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=370674, it shows in more detail how those two attacks are going to be a big DPS decrease. Remember, I am all for BW nerfing our high potential burst, however I feel like them nerfing our burst in addition to nerfing our overall DPS will be too much. Also, the fact remains that this change eliminates the RNG chance for us to deal very high damage, but leaves the RNG chance for us to deal very low damage.

[Bnol]

The whole point of this thread is that we will be worried about heat.

 

That is intentional. You should have to worry about your resources. Again, having to manage resources raises the skill cap of the class and is a good thing. Incendiary Missle is a bit too expensive now, it should be brought closer to Retractable Blade cost. But Pyro should not go back to not caring about heat, that makes the spec easy.

[Xsorus]

That is intentional. You should have to worry about your resources. Again, having to manage resources raises the skill cap of the class and is a good thing. Incendiary Missle is a bit too expensive now, it should be brought closer to Retractable Blade cost. But Pyro should not go back to not caring about heat, that makes the spec easy.

 

Unless you play a Sorc/Consular (and to lesser extent, Assassin/Shadow)

[Ryotknife]

That is intentional. You should have to worry about your resources. Again, having to manage resources raises the skill cap of the class and is a good thing. Incendiary Missle is a bit too expensive now, it should be brought closer to Retractable Blade cost. But Pyro should not go back to not caring about heat, that makes the spec easy.

 

wait...

 

pyro is the spec on live that has the most heat problems and needs constant monitering out of all of the pt specs....

[exphryl]

That is intentional. You should have to worry about your resources. Again, having to manage resources raises the skill cap of the class and is a good thing. Incendiary Missle is a bit too expensive now, it should be brought closer to Retractable Blade cost. But Pyro should not go back to not caring about heat, that makes the spec easy.

 

Operatives has passive energy regen ability (easier to manage then heat, although it costs 1 TA which is easy to get)

Mara have an ability on a short cooldown to give them half their rage....

 

etc etc.

 

Heat / Ammo users gets screwed in the whole resource game (although energy is close)

Edited March 22, 2012 by exphryl

[Theology]

People also forget that Pyrotechs (for PTs) are the only tree that have to USE heat, just to GET RID of heat.

 

Shieldtech/AP have passive heat regen every 6 seconds. We have to use, on average, 32 heat just to expend 8 heat.

 

How i this fair?

[busterbone]

That is intentional. You should have to worry about your resources. Again, having to manage resources raises the skill cap of the class and is a good thing. Incendiary Missle is a bit too expensive now, it should be brought closer to Retractable Blade cost. But Pyro should not go back to not caring about heat, that makes the spec easy.

 

I feel like I've said this many many times in this thread already, however I will state it again: There is only one way we can "manage resources" and that is more use of auto-attack. More auto-attack = DPS decrease. You previously responded to me by saying "good" PTs will fill the gap with Unload, Flame thrower, and Incendiary Missile. Then I responded to you showing how we won't be able to use these inefficient attacks because we will be so strapped for heat.

 

If you think Pyro currently does not care about heat you are mistaken. The only time we don't care about heat is when we get multiple PPA procs in a row. This will not be possible in 1.2.

 

Also, your post does not address the point I brought up when I stated that these changes

reduce the feast problems but do not reduce the famine problems. With this patch it is impossible to get the "feasts" (multiple PPA procs in a row) because of the internal cooldown. It will still be possible to have "famines". The possibility of good RNG is gone; the possibility of bad RNG is still there.

I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

[Theology]

Also, fantastic post OP, good to see others are trying to bring this matter to light as well.

[Coramac]

I wasn't stating the probability of 3 Rail Shots in a row, I was stating the chance of 3 PPA procs in a row. However, I still definitely agree that our current burst capabilities our much too high. I am not against nerfing our burst, I am against the method they are using to nerf it.

 

I agree. I think it completely destroys the spec. The problem is that it didn't just nerf burst. It destroyed key components of the build- outside the burst.

 

In the middle of combat, the chances of two Rail Shots in a row is = to the chances of two PPA procs in a row, which is 0.45 * 0.30 or 13.5% of the time (assuming 1 Flame Burst and 1 Rocket Punch), or 0.30 * 0.30 or 9% of the time (assuming 2 Flame Bursts). Therefore in the middle of combat, the chances of two Rail Shot procs in a row is not exactly "a very high probability".

 

I think it's more appropriate to extend out three GCDs and use the probability of not getting at least 1 proc. It takes up the same time frame as a "stars aligning" burst... which btw, I've used that exact phrase to describe that exact same thing.

 

My concern is the elimination of two HIB shots as opposed to the third. I don't think our double HIB is out of line with other classes and a triple HIB is uncommon to say the least. I don't see how the spec is playable without it as I view it as a cornerstone of the build.

 

Edit: This is what I posted in the Vanguard forums. I think you'd agree with a lot of it.

 

Tactics has always had better pressure. It's Ion Pulse hits very hard and, with it's far superior ammo friendliness, requires far fewer Hammer Shots in while pressuring. For clarification, I use pressure to refer to a non-1v1 situation where you are trying to bring a target into a burst range.

 

Assault currently does have the stars alignment RNG burst to burst targets down from high health- but this is rare to say the least. You really want your target to be 50% if equally geared and you need HIB up. This gives you a very strong chance of a kill within a 6.0-7.5 second window.

 

Tactics has pretty strong burst currently, but it is structurally different than Assault's. Burst damage can take many forms. For example, at a range, Assault's burst is largely a short window and back-loaded. Back-loaded burst is very nice because it typically minimizes reaction time- people don't know what's coming until it is too late (although Assault Plastique can give it away). You Incendiary Round, Assault Plastique, Full Auto, HIB. This is like a 3.5ish second window counting HIB travel time. The burst start with the Full Auto and is completed with the HIB (Compared to our more standard combo of something like Assault Plastique, Ion Pulse, HIB, Stock Stroke, Ion Pulse, Ion Pulse, HIB. Here's we're looking at a ~6-7.5 second window of gap burst. The damage is spilt heavily between the front and back (while front has more damage, the back end damage is still strong with the heavier DoT ticks and HIB finisher) of the window with much less damage in the interim. This does give players significantly more response time which is why you need a target to be in your burst range so that you have both properly accounted for a response and allowed yourself flexibility to improvise. You may not get a second HIB proc, Stock Strike + 2 Ion Pulses has a 27% chance of not getting a HIB proc, a third Ion Pulse reduces it to 19%. Your target may get too much healing to kill and cause you to put a delay in your combo to tab CC a healer or interupt a healer, Neural Surge without switching targets, or follow your burst with something like that to buy time to finish off the target. You may get any crits.

 

After 1.2, Assault will have to carry a HIB proc or wait for the CD to come up in order to execute it's normal burst combo. Carrying a proc means that it must burst a target at 4.5 seconds after proc or it loses the ability to execute normal burst or it can no longer pressure as it can't use Ion Pulse. The latter also means it cannot take advantage of the Plasma Cell snare effectively and has reduced target swapping capability as it is not applying the Plasma Cell DoT until after the front end damage of the burst combo, the ammo requirement is higher, and Incendiary Round simply does less damage than Ion Pulse initially, and there is a 4.5 second delay from a proc until the burst combo can be executed. The cumulative effect is very damaging.

 

If they make it so that the 6 second ICD doesn't activate if HIB is up, it will make a very big difference. It'll still be a big nerf, but it might not kill the spec's current functionality.

 

The Tactics burst is very heavily front-loaded and trails off significantly. As such it really doesn't have a window of time. It's Gut, Stick, Grenade, Fire Pulse, Stock Strike, HIB, Ion Pulse, Ion Pulse, Ion Pulse. Sticky Grenade, Fire Pulse, and Stock Strike will all hit at almost the same instant. HIB hits shortly after. This is basically instantaneous burst. The damage spike is typically much sharper but total damage is substantially less. It's better than Assault's burst if there isn't a second HIB largely due to a superior Stock Strike (Tactics gets Stock Strike Surge and is probably using Combat Tech for 15% Stock Strike crit) and the fact that the damage is more condensed as Fire Pulse's delay pushes the start of the damage window back a GCD.

 

Tactics also has a very nice Guard burst technique which becomes MUCH easier to pull off in 1.2. Guard has an inherent weakness to AoE if both the Guarding and Guarded players are caught in it. With Pulse Generator, a Guarding player will take 225% normal Pulse Cannon damage if the player he is Guarding is caught also as opposed to the 150% for players without Pulse Generator. It's a real tank killer. Giving Pulse Cannon a snare and interupt immunity is HUGE. It's an indirect buff to Hold the Line.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Coramac

[Bnol]

I feel like I've said this many many times in this thread already, however I will state it again: There is only one way we can "manage resources" and that is more use of auto-attack. More auto-attack = DPS decrease. You previously responded to me by saying "good" PTs will fill the gap with Unload, Flame thrower, and Incendiary Missile. Then I responded to you showing how we won't be able to use these inefficient attacks because we will be so strapped for heat.

 

If you think Pyro currently does not care about heat you are mistaken. The only time we don't care about heat is when we get multiple PPA procs in a row. This will not be possible in 1.2.

 

Also, your post does not address the point I brought up when I stated that these changes

I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

 

Yes, both sustain dps and burst dps will decrease. I don't think I ever stated that they would not. Obviously the devs felt that PT Pyro was doing too much sustained damage as well, I don't have any sort of logs or numbers for live, so I am not in a position to say whether that is the case or not.

 

However, what I have been arguing this whole time is that the changes are good in terms of raising the skill cap on PT Pyro. The difference between average/good/great PT Pyros is very slim at the moment and gear/luck play more of a role than the player does.

 

Your heat management will be how well you deal with your procs and your CDs. If you get your procs early after the ICD you can utilize heat generating/neutral abilities, if not then yes you will need to use more auto-attacks. You will have to judge how much you are going to press, how far will you fish for those procs based on the CDs available and the situation present. Bad PT Pyros will build too much heat during the ICD, or get heat too high trying to get a proc. You will have to properly utilize your heat management CDs they are there for a reason. You might have to pick up Automated Defenses in addition to Gyroscopic Alignment Jets if heat is such an issue.

 

True, it does not eliminate those famine situations, but it does reduce the chance, and thus the frequency of those famine situations. The offset to the no feast situation is less of a chance at famine. We will just disagree whether that is enough of an offset.

 

Again, Incendiary Missile is probably too expensive now with the changes, especially considering the fact that dots no longer stop caps anymore and Multi-dotting is bad in organized PVP because it will screw up mezs.

[Bnol]

People also forget that Pyrotechs (for PTs) are the only tree that have to USE heat, just to GET RID of heat.

 

Shieldtech/AP have passive heat regen every 6 seconds. We have to use, on average, 32 heat just to expend 8 heat.

 

How i this fair?

 

AP has passive heat regen, shieldtech's regen relies on shielding attacks, which means that they have to be getting attacked and attacked by abilities that can be shielded and getting lucky on that 50% chance. ST PTs can get Heat Blast, but I think they lose too much PVP utility to do so.

 

So yes, against bad players who attack shieldtech PTs in a group setting heat is less of an issue. But in rated people will quickly ID each PT by their gas cylinder and will not attack a ST PT.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Bnol

[Ryotknife]

AP has passive heat regen, shieldtech's regen relies on shielding attacks, which means that they have to be getting attacked and attacked by abilities that can be shielded and getting lucky on that 50% chance. ST PTs can get Heat Blast, but I think they lose too much PVP utility to do so.

 

So yes, against bad players who attack shieldtech PTs in a group setting heat is less of an issue. But in rated people will quickly ID each PT by their gas cylinder and will not attack a ST PT.

 

ehh

 

identifying a pt via cylinder is not as accurate as you may think.

 

CP plays pretty much like a pyro, but uses ion

 

AP can use ion as well

 

ironfist can use ion

 

and of course shieldtech.

[Bnol]

ehh

 

identifying a pt via cylinder is not as accurate as you may think.

 

CP plays pretty much like a pyro, but uses ion

 

AP can use ion as well

 

ironfist can use ion

 

and of course shieldtech.

 

Sure, right now a lot of PTs run Ion, but we are talking 1.2 here. Anyone wanting to utilize PPA will have to run Combustable. AP can run Ion, but loses out on speed and extra heat management for doing so. You don't want to attack Ironfist or ST in a group setting because both will be durable targets with less output than other targets likely available.

[busterbone]

Yes, both sustain dps and burst dps will decrease. I don't think I ever stated that they would not. Obviously the devs felt that PT Pyro was doing too much sustained damage as well, I don't have any sort of logs or numbers for live, so I am not in a position to say whether that is the case or not.

Alright, at least we both agree that Bioware is nerfing both our burst and our sustained DPS. I guess where we differ is that I think nerfing both burst and sustained DPS at the same time is too much.

 

However, what I have been arguing this whole time is that the changes are good in terms of raising the skill cap on PT Pyro. The difference between average/good/great PT Pyros is very slim at the moment and gear/luck play more of a role than the player does.

I agree that currently the skill cap for Pyrotech is pretty low (we only have like 5 main DPS abilities after all). Right now if two Pyrotechs fight each other, 90% of the fight is who has better gear and who gets more procs. If managing heat is what Bioware wants to separate the “good” Pyrotechs from the “bad” ones, then that’s fine. It’s just that I think if a Pyrotech has excellent heat management he should not lose much DPS with this 1.2 patch. In other words, if currently Pyrotech DPS looks like this (these are completely made-up numbers):

 

A “good” Pyrotech: 1000 dps

A “bad” Pyrotech: 900 dps

 

I agree this should be changed because it shows a very low skill-cap. If it were changed to something like this in 1.2:

 

A “good” Pyrotech: 1000 dps

A “bad” Pyrotech: 600 dps

 

Then I’m fine with that. However, I believe that with this patch it will look more like this:

 

A “good” Pyrotech 700 dps

A “bad” Pyrotech 400 dps

 

So in a way Bioware is making a larger difference between average and great Pyrotechs (something we both think is a good thing), however at the same time, in addition to nerfing our burst damage, they are also making a great Pyrotech do much less overall DPS. I guess what it comes down to is that I believe a well-played Pyrotech should have his burst nerfed in 1.2 but his overall DPS kept the same (if he manages his heat well). This is not going to be the case in 1.2.

 

True, it does not eliminate those famine situations, but it does reduce the chance, and thus the frequency of those famine situations. The offset to the no feast situation is less of a chance at famine. We will just disagree whether that is enough of an offset.

You’re right, I guess we just disagree. I believe if Bioware completely removes feast situations they should completely remove (not reduce) the frequency of famine situations.

 

Again, Incendiary Missile is probably too expensive now with the changes, especially considering the fact that dots no longer stop caps anymore and Multi-dotting is bad in organized PVP because it will screw up mezs.

I do agree however that Incendiary Missile does not merit a 25 heat cost.

[Theology]

Please read our posts devs, look at our concerns, the math we've done, the ideas we've come up with and re-adjust accordingly.

[busterbone]

I agree. I think it completely destroys the spec. The problem is that it didn't just nerf burst. It destroyed key components of the build- outside the burst.

Exactly.

 

Concerning your post on the Vanguard forums, I'll be honest in that I don't have much experience with the Tactics tree. However, should these changes go through I will definitely be trying Tactics out. That Pulse Cannon buff is looking quite cool and I feel like it will add another dimension to the spec.

[Serrowherrow]

Signed, really hoping they rethink this. The burst was justified, gutting the entire tree was not.

 

Please keep at least a few non-force classes viable, otherwise this game will just become a glow-stick party.

[Theology]

Great thread with great info and valid concerns. Bioware really needs to take a look at this and the other thread over in the Powertech forum.

[Gomezie]

/Signed