Why the proposed 1.2 Pyrotech changes are poorly thought out

[Bamajawn]

I'm the "other" Pyro... a Merc. I haven't seen complaints about us being overpowered, yet these changes will reduce our damage output as well since they are in the shared tree. I'll be curious to see if the 1.2 changes hurt the spec.

 

Based on the numbers posted by the OP, it looks like we'll be negatively affected by the changes while still lacking some abilities (interrupt for example) that make the PT such a good spec. I have the feeling that LoS will become more of a part of my rotation than it is currently.

 

Sadly, my alt is an... Operative.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Bamajawn

[vimm]

Sadly thats what greg zoeller admitted to do. Check the thread about it.

 

Damnit, Greg.

[VertisReaper]

I saw this nerf coming, along with the sorc and operative nerfs, i think I'm like psychic or something.

[Sevvy]

RNG is bad. At least right now it's live and die by the sword. In 1.2, it'll only be die by the sword. o_O

 

 

What Bioware should have done, was figure out how often they want us to Rail Shot, and then have Prototype Particle Accelerator reduce the cooldown of Rail Shot. I hate the RNG aspect of it. Then you throw in a huge internal cooldown(4 GCDs is huge). It really makes it seem like Bioware has no idea how to design/balance classes. Which I've been saying since beta.

 

I knew a nerf was coming. Because lightsaber classes were really starting to QQ hard. I just wish the nerf was handled better. It's a band-aid applied to an already broken mechanic.

[Leoness]

Bioware is just making it so that everyone will only play their Sent/Mara.

 

Surprised this thread hasn't been deleted or closed by over zelous jobsworths tbh.

[Magnesium]

So they are doing something to fix an obvious flaw in burst damage, which when you factor in adrenals and relics was giving LARGE crits back to back. Lets hope this is actually enough.

[iDubstep]

Your post confirmed my fears... I just switched my Powertech to Advanced Prototype last night.

 

Every tree on my Mercenary is getting destroyed come 1.2.

 

Those are the only characters I play, give me a reason to keep my subscription?

[Leoness]

There isn't one unless you want to reroll Sent/Mara.

 

On my server everyone already plays that class, its a complete joke.

 

GG Bioware.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Leoness

[exphryl]

So they are doing something to fix an obvious flaw in burst damage, which when you factor in adrenals and relics was giving LARGE crits back to back. Lets hope this is actually enough.

 

Burst damage won't change much.....

 

Heat management becomes an issue though in a sustained battle. (Having a more adverse effect on PvE than it does on PvP)

Edited March 21, 2012 by exphryl

[Magnesium]

Burst damage won't change much.....

 

Heat management becomes an issue though in a sustained battle. (Having a more adverse effect on PvE than it does on PvP)

 

The ability to cycle that burst so quickly was an issue as well as the burst numbers themselves. I still think they need to look at the actual burst numbers, but at least this will help with a step in the right direction.

[Poulay]

Agreed with the OP ...

No it's not going in the right direction as the nerf is going to break the whole heating mechanic. Less dps...ok , less fun...no

Edited March 21, 2012 by Poulay

[Kaarsa]

Following post contains my personal opinions, these are not hard facts and you are free to disagree with me.

 

Pyro powertech had possibility, with great deal of luck, deal some enormous damage in vry short period of time. It had to be changed. Looks like BW thinks that overall damage of this spec was to high, so overall damage was nerfed too.

 

Before change, powertech could be played in 90% with 1 button - macro on gaming mouse or 3rd party program, activating without substantial delay 3 abilities in following order:

 

1. Rail shot

2. Rocket punch

3. Flame strike

 

If you have rail shot up and target is burning/incap, it fires. If not, it tries to do rocket punch, if on CD or target too far away, flame strike to reset rail shot and apply dot.

 

Doing basicaly anything else was unnecesary (from damage standpoint, I am not talking about CC, pull, defensive CD, taunt etc).

 

You had no choices to make, no tactic involved. Just 1 button and pray to RNG gods.

 

Now, how it will work in 1.2?

 

Lets say you fight someone and you get rail shot proc. You use it, and now you have 4,5 sec (3 GCD) before you can try to get another proc.

 

What are your options?

 

1. Target is pretty low and I think I can kill him before overheating. You go all out with stockstrickes, thermal detonators, flame strikes and whatever you wish. If made a good call, taget is dead. If not, you are screwed.

 

2. Target in your opinion cannot be bursted down in following 4,5 sec. You have unload, flame thrower (2 very heat efficient skills, 8heat/gcd) or hammer shots (free damage is better than no damage;)). If you made a wrong decision, you can be killed before you will be able to kill your target.

 

My point is, currently you dont have to make a choice. Ability to choose correct approach in every situation will differ good player from bad player. And this is good.

 

Will this decrease overall pyro damage? Yes. You will get proc on average every 9 sec, instead on average every 4,5 sec. Was it intended? Looks like it was, I dont think that dev team is consisted of morons unable to do basic math. Is it gamebreaking, destroying spec? Of course not, overall damage should be still good, risk of overheating in normal fight will be lower and burst will still be there.

 

TL DR

 

Nerf is not so bad, pyro powertech/vanguard will be still vaible and strong spec, but now will require something more than 1 button spam.

[Sevvy]

The ability to cycle that burst so quickly was an issue as well as the burst numbers themselves. I still think they need to look at the actual burst numbers, but at least this will help with a step in the right direction.

 

lol @ a step in the right direction

 

Once these changes go into effect, if you can't beat a Pyro Powertech, you're bad.

[theangryllama]

Your post confirmed my fears... I just switched my Powertech to Advanced Prototype last night.

 

Every tree on my Mercenary is getting destroyed come 1.2.

 

Those are the only characters I play, give me a reason to keep my subscription?

 

With the PvP buffs AP is getting I think many may do this also (myself being one of them).

[Baconmonster]

Your post confirmed my fears... I just switched my Powertech to Advanced Prototype last night.

 

Every tree on my Mercenary is getting destroyed come 1.2.

 

Those are the only characters I play, give me a reason to keep my subscription?

 

Main is a pyrotech. These changes go live I have zero reason to continue playing. Guess that's what I get for playing a tech user. I hope SWTOR bombs with their terrible business practice of oppressing the lesser played classes. Ever think the reason they're less played is because YOU DO **** LIKE THIS?

[Gnugthreeonefive]

Excellent post, and some replies like the above. I agree with one poster that pointed out keeping track of the remainding 4½ sec proc cd shouldn't be hard, given that it's exactly 3 abilities, and also the one that pointed out this is actually giving us harder choices, which I'll always support.

 

Pyro balance is just part of the overall balance, and even if we are nerfedbig, just perhaps we'll still be average or better, in which case it's hard to complain.

 

In any case, it takes some time to optimize a new twist on rotation priorities, as well as see the numbers from every other spec in comparison, so any opinions stated now are pure speculation.

 

Btw: people saying thay'll quit because their class is nerfed -- oh puhleeze. It's okay to get emotional (even good, as it means the game is doing a good job connecting you with your char), but that's just silly considering we were badly in need of a nerf.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Gnugthreeonefive

[Gosten]

The problem I'm seeing now is that we're not getting a defensive ability to make up for our new lack of burst. I think a simple 5 sec damage immunity ability would be appropriate. Maybe a quick stealth invisibility or if those are too similar to a marauder, then how about a teleport. At least shorten the cooldown our our weak damage reduction screen. For only 25% reduction it should be on a 1 min cooldown, not 2 min.

[Leoness]

ROFL, just got off the PTS and I can say for certain everyone should reroll Mara, its complete faceroll, no other class can stand up to you in the slightest.

 

P.S. PT is pretty useless now, maybe 2nd worst class in the game, but who cares just reroll Mara.

 

Bioware really knows what they are doing lol.

[busterbone]

Utilizing auto-attack, thermal det, DFA (I understand this is a target of opportunity thing, but you can force a carbonize--> DFA) within that window will net you more damage than someone who doesn't, again raising the skill cap of the class.

Except DFA is a 1 minute cooldown. What about the other procs that occur while DFA is on cooldown? Like you said, this leaves us with two options: Thermal Det (15 second cooldown) and Auto-attack. You might consider spamming auto-attack "raising the skill cap", I don't. I consider it a major DPS loss.

 

Your suggestions are:

 

Showing the ICD (which no class gets)

100% proc (which dumbs down the class even more than it is)

6 second rail shot CD (see above)

 

Only showing the ICD keeps the rotation more fluid, but it also lowers the skill cap.

Removing the RNG effect on PPA by providing a 100% proc or a 6 second Rail Shot CD is not "dumbing down the class", it's providing more stable, consistent damage. You even said earlier that:

More predictable damage is preferred by good players

and

These changes are thought out to keep some fluidity in the rotation to make things interesting without too much random feast/famine scenarios. The changes are good because it actually raises the skillcap on PT Pyro.

[Seriasx]

Pretty big nerf : (

[EternalFinality]

OP's logic is a bit flawed. There will only be 2 potential attacks under perfect conditions that no longer receive a chance of PPA to proc.

 

Assume you get a PPA proc. 1.5 seconds later you will use Rail Shot. Now you have 2 attacks that are unable to proc PPA, at 3 seconds and 4.5 seconds.

 

The attack at 6 seconds will be able to proc it because you do not have perfect timing compared to the server, and that attack will occur at 6.2 seconds later or whatever.

 

So you need to do some rework on your calculations.

[Bnol]

Except DFA is a 1 minute cooldown. What about the other procs that occur while DFA is on cooldown? Like you said, this leaves us with two options: Thermal Det (15 second cooldown) and Auto-attack. You might consider spamming auto-attack "raising the skill cap", I don't. I consider it a major DPS loss.

 

You have Unload, Flame Thrower, thermal det, incendiary missle if you aren't worried about heat.

 

The additional skill is expending more heat during the time PPA can proc and then reducing that heat during the ICD, and knowing how much to push and how much to reserve. You have more choices to make based on CDs available and current situation than you do now. It will take more skill to maximize your damage than it does now, good use of both vent heat and thermal override will be needed as well.

 

Removing the RNG effect on PPA by providing a 100% proc or a 6 second Rail Shot CD is not "dumbing down the class", it's providing more stable, consistent damage. You even said earlier that

 

Those suggestions just make it a basic and boring rotation, the changes reduce the feast/famine problems of now without making it a absolute set rotation.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Bnol

[Coramac]

You're off on the probability of 3 HIB / Rail Shots in short order. The first use doesn't have to be a proc. It's .45 * .3 or .135% for opening with 3 uses rapidly. Anytime you have HIB / Rail Shot up and Rocket Punch / Stock Strike up, you have this chance.

 

The real burst has always revolved around two HIB / Rail Shots in a short window. There's a very high probability of this occuring if you play your cards right. It's a lot of burst, but it's not out of line with what other classes can do. It is better in my opinion at least compared to many of the other classes with the rapidity which you can pull it off on a target swap

Edited March 21, 2012 by Coramac

[busterbone]

You have Unload, Flame Thrower, thermal det, incendiary missle if you aren't worried about heat.

 

The whole point of this thread is that we will be worried about heat.

 

Those suggestions just make it a basic and boring rotation, the changes reduce the feast/famine problems of now without making it a absolute set rotation.

 

No, they reduce the feast problems but do not reduce the famine problems. With this patch it is impossible to get the "feasts" (multiple PPA procs in a row) because of the internal cooldown. It will still be possible to have "famines". The possibility of good RNG is gone; the possibility of bad RNG is still there.

[Assaultrooper]

ROFL, just got off the PTS and I can say for certain everyone should reroll Mara, its complete faceroll, no other class can stand up to you in the slightest.

 

P.S. PT is pretty useless now, maybe 2nd worst class in the game, but who cares just reroll Mara.

 

Bioware really knows what they are doing lol.

 

Don't say that i'll cry it's like the warlock nerfs all over again.....