Crew Skills in Game Update 1.2

[AsheraII]

Great updates, now I'm just hoping for the <specified companion> equipment to become reproducable in BOE Orange flavour. I don't mind if those items would remain companion-specific, but it'd be nice to be able to maintain specific outfits that simply look nice. And I think it might be a good seller for armormechs/synthweavers if they could.

[BlackMink]

I am sorry if this has been asked before, but in the note about Biochem, it says that a critical craft on an implant will result in two now.

 

Does this mean that implants can no longer have augment slots? That's what you get currently for a crit craft.

[Razzberry]

These changes are a great start to making crafting more relevant to the end-game, however they introduce a number of new issues that may end up causing a whole new slew of player problems.

 

The main issues with the current system can roughly be summed up as follows:

1. End-game crafting professions currently do not provide anything valuable to other players. Loot obtained from raids is better in all cases.

2. Due to number 1, player customization is limited since wearing a piece of raid armor is always the right solution.

3. Also due to number 1, augments are currently fairly useless since only crafted gear can have augment slots and they are still inferior pieces.

 

The major changes to the system in 1.2:

1. All moddable Custom & Artifact gear is able to be reverse engineered into a learnable Custom pattern.

2. All crafted Custom gear can crit and have a mod slot.

3. All 4 gear crafting professions can now make different types of augments.

4. Slicing gathers the materials for augments.

 

While this change indisputably makes crafting more useful, it actually swings the pendulum too far in the opposite direction. In fact, under the new system, crit crafted Custom gear are the new de facto BiS items! This does absolutely nothing to solve the number 2 issue above, since the right answer at that point is to wear the first piece of Custom gear with an augment slot you can find for every slot. Raid drops become inherently inferior and exist as nothing more than a shell for three removable mods.

 

So, moving from one solution to another is still not really ideal. How, then, could the main issues be solved?

 

Two ways:

1. Remove the entire concept of augment slots and crit crafted gear. Make gear crafting crits consistently just provide multiples of the crafted item (similar to other non-armor crafting professions).

2. Change augments into a consumable, permanent item enhancement. Augments effectively become SWTOR's version of enchanting, except instead of being a dedicated profession as in other games, it is split among all of the current 4 gear crafting professions.

 

How these changes would affect the system:

1. Gear crafting professions would continue to be able to make BoE Custom gear of any moddable armor in the game just like they would be in the current 1.2 changes. Players are still going to want to customize their look enough to buy Custom gear from other players rather than farm it themselves. It effectively provides a credit to time conversion for players who dislike grinding for aesthetic gear, which crafters benefit from.

2. Augments are not removable. This is actually a benefit, since it means that if players ever want to change up their looks (or have multiple sets of gear), they will be required to purchase new augments. Augments would end up being a major source of long-term, relatively consistent income for crafters rather than front-loading the demand like in 1.2's system.

3. Players actually get to choose what they want to look like! This is probably the biggest benefit of the changes. Players can literally wear whatever they want and just need to slap an augment on it to make it BiS (with appropriate mods of course).

 

As it stands, the 1.2 system effectively replaces one non-ideal situation (raiding gear being BiS at the expense of customization) with another non-ideal situation (crafted crit gear being BiS). Unless customization is intended to be an incredibly time-consuming and, quite frankly, frustrating process, 1.2's system really doesn't help in the long run. It seems like a compromised system that allows both crafters to benefit as well as make player customization more accessible would be a far more rewarding and enjoyable experience.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Razzberry

[Selethar]

Seems like Slicing will remain the "must have" skill since it seems to be the only material source for all other crafters (if I read the update right) to make all these new augments. I would assume that there is a matching drop in the "cash" side of slicing?

[JediMasterRyanW]

So anyone on PTS know what the success rate is on REing orange items? I've had the Omenbringer robe since I got it on Coruscant and have it modded out with excellent mid-30s mods, and it would be nice to try to RE that and make more in hopes of getting an augmented version schematic. But if I try to RE it and destroy it, I've just lost my favorite piece of moddable armor for nothing. Any word on this?

[Joefjr]

So anyone on PTS know what the success rate is on REing orange items? I've had the Omenbringer robe since I got it on Coruscant and have it modded out with excellent mid-30s mods, and it would be nice to try to RE that and make more in hopes of getting an augmented version schematic. But if I try to RE it and destroy it, I've just lost my favorite piece of moddable armor for nothing. Any word on this?

 

Go back to Coruscant do Trouble in Deed, and see what happens when you RE that robe.

[Joefjr]

SNIP

 

While Aug slot gear will be BiS, you can pull all mods out of your T2 set. The T2 set can be RE and learn the pattern so it can be crit crafted with Aug slot.

 

 

You can RE any orange/Teir/PvP gear that has mods/mod slots to learn the pattern to crit craft it.

 

 

What this system does is let us dress our toons how we want in gear with Aug slots, and not be sub-par any way because we can pull mods out of new gear.

 

I know a lot of crafters who have toons and alts cargo holds filled with mats so when this patch goes live they can go on a crafting bend and start selling aug armor asap.

 

 

 

As a note to all crafters don't be stupid and put the aug gear especially the stuff sub 40 for insane prices there will be so many on the market every one will be price cut you.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Joefjr

[JediMasterRyanW]

Go back to Coruscant do Trouble in Deed, and see what happens when you RE that robe.

 

Trouble in Deed? I got the robe from the Gree Bonus Mission with all the droids.

[Joefjr]

Trouble in Deed? I got the robe from the Gree Bonus Mission with all the droids.

 

Trouble in deed gives you an orange robe as a reward so does Rep. Most Wanted iirc, been a while.

[JediMasterRyanW]

So if I want to RE a low-level orange item, I have to go back and grind the mission (which could be 30 levels lower than I am) or risk losing it completely?

[Joefjr]

Yep and honestly those 2 mission take less than 30 mins with travel time. It is also the PTS so you can RE what you have. You wont have it much longer any ways. Edited March 21, 2012 by Joefjr

[JediMasterRyanW]

Yep and honestly those 2 mission take less than 30 mins with travel time. It is also the PTS so you can RE what you have. You wont have it much longer any ways.

 

I was mostly asking for my character on the actual play server, don't have any high-level chars on PTS yet.

[Joefjr]

I was mostly asking for my character on the actual play server, don't have any high-level chars on PTS yet.

 

Ah, give it a few days there will be more info out.

 

I would be on the PTS now if we could copy or make a pre-made.

 

Hopefully they have that for the next major content patch.

[aramina]

You guys have no idea how glad I am that that stupid droid will talk less on my ship now. Also, improved odds to discover schematics through reverse engineering? A++++++++ The obsessive compulsive in me always tries to get every improved recipe possible

[WillCaedes]

No offense..but why is a Combat Designer giving us on info dealing with economy and crew related topics..? Are we expecting to go to battle over GTN prices or something now?

[Razzberry]

While Aug slot gear will be BiS, you can pull all mods out of your T2 set. The T2 set can be RE and learn the pattern so it can be crit crafted with Aug slot.

 

That's unfortunately not true at all. The empty shell still remains BoP, so I would not be able to trade it to a Synthweaver to get it RE'ed. That's part of the issue with the system; non-gear crafters have no direct input into the look of their own gear since they can't even provide crafters with the original items to RE. They have to rely entirely on the whims of gear crafters to bother to both collect and then RE (potentially multiple times) the item they actually want to wear.

 

If it was possible to keep feeding items to guildmates for them to RE for you, the system would be far less frustrating than it is. As it is though, the choice basically becomes re-roll a gear crafting profession to RE your own gear or be SOL. Given how much strife there was with Biochem for similar reasons, I don't really understand why that's the direction BioWare wants to head yet again.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Razzberry

[DizzD]

That's unfortunately not true at all. The empty shell still remains BoP, so I would not be able to trade it to a Synthweaver to get it RE'ed. That's part of the issue with the system; non-gear crafters have no direct input into the look of their own gear since they can't even provide crafters with the original items to RE. They have to rely entirely on the whims of gear crafters to bother to both collect and then RE (potentially multiple times) the item they actually want to wear.

 

If it was possible to keep feeding items to guildmates for them to RE for you, the system would be far less frustrating than it is. As it is though, the choice basically becomes re-roll a gear crafting profession to RE your own gear or be SOL. Given how much strife there was with Biochem for similar reasons, I don't really understand why that's the direction BioWare wants to head yet again.

 

Seriously...other MMO's have found an elegant solution comparatively speaking (appearance slots/transmogrification). Yet BW seem hell bent to ignore the lessons other companies spent alot of time and money learning.

 

RE is one of the most hated mechanics in game(rightfully so), and their solution for appearance gear is to expand on this mechanic in a super convoluted fashion which apparently even the devs find difficult to fully explain.

 

BW picked just about the hardest way possible to go about this and I hope for their sake, and for ours, it actually works out.

Edited March 21, 2012 by DizzD

[ArmoredJuneBug]

I made a lot of comments on the 1.2 changes already in this post, though in the day and age of ADD that didn't get much attention.

 

I'll re-post the important points below, as terse as I can make them while still being understandable.

 

* There's a huge lack of dropped schematics. For example, Cybertech can get prototype schematic drops at level 19 and 23. After that it never happens again. Armstech get a couple of drops at 19, more at 39. Then nothing. Will this be addressed?

 

I'd expect to see regular tiers of prototype schematics for all skills, certainly at level 50.

 

* The availability of Cybertech Mods suck. Not only are you limited to schematics every 4 levels, as opposed to every 2 with other item modifications, but you can only make a small subset of DPS mods. Adding healing and tanking mods and more diversity is long overdue.

 

* Getting such prototype schematics earlier than what the trainer offer with premium schematics would be ideal. For example, Biochem offers prototype implant schematics at level 21 while the earliest trainer-taught premium schematics require level 25.

 

* There's a vast imbalance between reliance on different gathering and missions skills. Half the crafting skills in the game rely on Scavenging and Underworld Trading, specifically Underworld Metals. This not only skews pricing but has compounding effects on the economy and available schematics.

 

My suggestion is to change Cybertech to use Investigation materials rather than Underworld Trading and make all Synthweaving schematics use Underworld Fabrics, instead of just Light armor. Yes, it's a major change but it has to be done.

 

Scavenging is more involved, but less of a problem.

 

* Increasing the reverse engineering chance significantly will screw the economy. Even after 1.2 it represents the only (effectively) inexhaustible credit sink. Everything else is one-off. Also, this will create a short-term trading frenzy as everyone scrambles to learn the schematics they want, after which the GTN will be pointless as everyone can make their own items and materials will be left to rot.

 

* Being able to reverse engineer into the same item multiple times is the only real concern that should be addressed. For each schematic only 1 out of the 15 possible reverse engineered upgrades is desirable, having to suffer through multiples of the same adds insult to injury.

 

* With two characters with Cybertech 400 it's my belief that Armoring mods should be moved to Armormech and Synthweaving, as appropriate depending upon main stats, and all Augments moved exclusively under Cybertech.

 

My reasoning for this is as follows.

 

• Armormech and Synthweaving gains access to both a widely desirable item type, in the form of armorings, as well as an easy way to level up the skill. Skills with rated items such as item modifications are far, far easier to level up than others. It also makes Armormech and Synthweaving the go-to skills for armor, regardless of whether said armor is crafted or slotted.
  
• Armstech doesn't get access to augments, though as the only desirable augments are primary stat ones this is a lesser concern. Armstech already has barrels, which represents a desirable item typs as well as an easy means of leveling the skill.
  
• Cybertech loses armorings but gains access to crafted augments instead. As long as the availability of schematics for mods is brought in line with expectation this is an acceptable trade-off. This also maintains the idea of Cybertech as the 'gadget' skill.
  [*Slicing has generally been considered a decent companion skill for Cybertech. By giving augments to Cybertech this would still be the case even when Slicing provides materials for augments, as opposed to making it more desirable for other skills.
  

 

* What are the exclusive benefits of the crafting skills?

 

I'll assume it's BiS endgame gear, though I personally feel it isn't enough. If Armormech can make BiS waists and wrists, for example, there should be BoP/Armormech-requiring schematics available at regular intervals from early on. This would give players an incentive to keep their crafting skill up to date, rather than stick with three gathering skills until level 50 and power-leveling a crafting skill at that point.

 

Also, things like the Cybertech speeders are desirable because they're rare, if made BoE they're effectively rendered pointless. Sure, best case they may be cheaper to make than the vendor ones for a time (until inflation catches up, which it will) but even then they only help boost inflation by keeping credits in the economy.

 

Better would be to add other vanity item exclusives to all crafting skills.

 

I'm focusing on Cybertech here but it's easy to imagine small droids, Armormechs with custom armor attachments, Artificers with eldritch crystal contraptions etc.

 

* Item modifications require too much materials to make compared to the complete armor pieces. A single artifact mod at rank 22, worse than many quest rewards, requires 4 each of Durasteel, Zal Alloy, Thermoplast Flux and Mandalorian Iron. That's just too much to be viable, even with crafting multiples on a crit.

 

* Cybertech grenades need a 60-90 second cooldown. They only save on resources compared to class abilities, they're not more powerful. Medpacs are comparatively more useful, as far from every class has 5k instant heals in their normal toolset. Thus grenades need to be better.

[parmie]

If this thread is being tracked for another forum update on questions to be answered:

 

If I've stored up some Biometric Alloy in my cargo will it become tradable after 1.2 or still bound to me? Same question with speeders, if I build some now can I trade them after 1.2.

 

Reverse engineering upgrades from via top end items - will cybers be able to reverse engineer the item? i.e. I won't have to extract them for 25k each before being able to reverse engineer

[RyceTOR]

It seems to say that armormech can learn the shell schematics from orange gear, but I am unclear if synthweavers can as well, I have a synthweaver who has the voss mystic social set, I want to keep the look, will he be able to RE a social set, and learn its pattern?

 

Yes this was unclear. It sounded like armormechs could re "nearly any" outfit, but no such statement was included in the synthweaving section..

 

Whats the verdict on this?

[dnoisette]

Yes this was unclear. It sounded like armormechs could re "nearly any" outfit, but no such statement was included in the synthweaving section..

 

Whats the verdict on this?

 

 

That and : do we get schematics out of the orange items being REed ?

Devs ?

[PiffyEQ]

..Armormech crafters may now reverse engineer almost any modifiable outfit into an empty custom (orange) shell of the same name and appearance, which may now gain an augment slot when crafted with critical success.

...

Synthweavers:

As with Armormech, a critical success crafting custom (orange) outfits will add an additional augment slot to the resulting item.

 

I'm a bit unclear whether Synthweavers will also be able to RE modifiable outfits to get the same name and appearance, or if it is exclusively something only armormechs can do.

 

I really hope both crew skills can do that, there's a few pieces I would love to be able to RE to get the same appearance

[dnoisette]

I'm a bit unclear whether Synthweavers will also be able to RE modifiable outfits to get the same name and appearance, or if it is exclusively something only armormechs can do.

 

I really hope both crew skills can do that, there's a few pieces I would love to be able to RE to get the same appearance

 

Unfortunately, the more I think about it and the way it is worded, the more convinced I am that I am gonna have to change my main crafting skill.

[Joefjr]

I'm a bit unclear whether Synthweavers will also be able to RE modifiable outfits to get the same name and appearance, or if it is exclusively something only armormechs can do.

 

I really hope both crew skills can do that, there's a few pieces I would love to be able to RE to get the same appearance

 

Armormrch can RE/Learn Tech Armor

 

Synth can RE/Learn Force Armor

[Laurreth]

Yet BW seem hell bent to ignore the lessons other companies spent alot of time and money learning.

 

Just to clarify, they ignore lessons learned by in-house teams! They'd just need to call someone and say, "hey, since you work for EA too, could you please tell me why crafting in WAR was a complete failure? … Oh really? And why wasn't it quite as bad in DAoC? … Cool. Something to say about UO?"

 

And then they do the same for PvP.