Crew Skills in Game Update 1.2

[Tarka]

/facepalm That's the whole point of what this update is changing. Yes you can get orange gear with 3 sockets from commendations, quests, etc. They're giving crafters the ability to make orange gear with 4 sockets (on a crit, it adds an augment slot). That's the whole point.

 

You either have to craft or buy from a crafter to get BIS gear in the new update. That's it. That's the only way. It doesn't favor non-crafters. And you don't even have to raid to make these items. Crit on any orange gear and you get an augment slot. There's orange schematics sprinkled through all the levels or armormech/synth/artifice/armstech.

 

Again, now that you can pull mods out of raid items, these will be the items that everyone goes for, because it's the only way to get an augment slot. And the fact that you can RE orange items that are already in the game to learn that schematic makes things even better for crafters. Want a crit-crafter orange chestpiece from the lvl 35 heroic? You either have to RE it yourself and be a crafter OR you have to find a crafter that's gone through the trouble of learning that schematic and building it till it crits. That's carving out a niche. You could literally be one of the few people on the server that knows schematics for certain appearances. Oh, and if you want to fill those new augment slots you'll be buying from crafters as well.

 

You're either misunderstanding what they're doing or not thinking it through clearly enough. This update is giving tons of power to the armor and weapon crafters. They're going to be able to exclusively make you gear that is better than the stuff you get from quests/comms.

 

And when EVERYONE is able to craft the same item, AND crit it, then what happens?

 

I'll give you a moment to think about that.......

 

Here's a clue:

Imagine a whole pages of identical clothing, all the same colour, all the same design, all with the same number of slots (4 of them).

 

No, being a crafter ISN'T a "niche". Why? Because there are lots of other crafters, all making the same thing to the same level of quality, with the same colour. NO variation at all. ALL ways of creating variation (both in aethetics and stats) are put into the hands of those who buy the items. Not those who make them.

 

And for those crafters who aren't raiders, tough schnitt. Because they can never offer items for sale that are competitive.

 

In short:

• There is no "supply and demand" for particular items, when said items are never given reasons to be taken out of the economy. In other words, they are never actually "consumed".
  
• There is no variation in aethetics, when a "colour matching" system is implemented that puts the power to change the colour of items into the hands of the user, not the crafter.
  
• There is no variation in stats of crafted items, when users have the power to exchange those stats at will.
  

 

Thus every crafter resorts to trying to sell "empty" moddable items and mods to go in them. With much much variation in stats and NO variation in aethetics on any one particular model of item.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Tarka

[OsarionRDM]

My response to the article: Meh.

 

I was hoping for changes that actually promoted the sale of "finished" goods by crafters. Where sub-assemblies are married together by crafters. But tnstead, 1.2 seems to be nothing more than further emphasising a "mod crafting" system that relies solely on the sale of modifications and empty moddable gear.

• What happened to the "crafters will be sought out and be able to make niches for themselves" philosophy that you were pushing pre-launch?
  .
  
• Where's the "supply and demand" situation in the crew skills that are now becoming even MORE reliant on moddable gear?
  

When everyone can RE everything they need, or just modify anything they own "on the fly", then there really are no "niches". Just churning out of mods into a market which eventually will become ultimately saturated by worthless items.

 

In short, this isn't a crafting system for crafters. It's a crafting system for non-crafters.

 

Very dissappointing. By allowing everyone to customise anything whenever they like, you are creating a worthless economy and itemisation synergy that comprises of nothing more than lots of same empty moddable items, that look the same, and little variance. All waiting for players to buy them and customise them both in stats and colour.

 

Very dull indeed.

 

When everyone is a "hero", then no one is.

Likewise, when everyone can craft the same thing, then there are no "niches".

 

This sums up exactly how I feel as well. Whoop-de-doo. Synthweave can make augments...

[Nazguapo]

Do we know what happens if you crit on an augment? Can you augment an augment?

 

 

Augmentception...

 

Really though, I'm sure you'd get 2 augments instead of 1.

[Chef_BoyRUdead]

Here's a clue: Imagine a whole pages of identical clothing, all the same colour, all the same design, all with the same number of slots (4 of them).

 

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit is it?

 

ANY modable outfit piece can be RE'd to learn an orange version and ANY orange can be crited to contain an extra slot, this will actually INCREASE diversity of what is being sold.

 

No longer will people be forced into the Tionese -> Columni -> Rakata gear progression.

 

Personally I'm gonna be rocking padded vest and goggles as soon as my armormech can get them crited.

[Tarka]

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit is it?

 

ANY modable outfit piece can be RE'd to learn an orange version and ANY orange can be crited to contain an extra slot, this will actually INCREASE diversity of what is being sold.

 

No longer will people be forced into the Tionese -> Columni -> Rakata gear progression.

 

Personally I'm gonna be rocking padded vest and goggles as soon as my armormech can get them crited.

 

Like the old saying goes: "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".

 

Please read my post again. Note how many slots I mentioned.

Then imagine EVERY cybertech making the EXACT same critted item as you are.

 

Do you REALLY think that adding an augment slot actually creates much variance, when everyone is trying to make the same item with the same augment slot?

 

Now, I don't know about anyone else but in my opinion, if one is filling a "niche", then one is able to offer a product or service that can only be offered by a small small group.

 

So I ask you, where's the "niche" when everyone is able to craft the same thing?

 

When everyone is a "hero", then no one is.

Likewise, when everyone can craft the same thing, then there are no "niches".

Edited March 20, 2012 by Tarka

[Lhaim]

Like the old saying goes: "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".

 

Please read my post again.

Then imagine EVERY cybertech making the EXACT same critted item as you are.

 

Do you REALLY think that adding an augment slot actually creates much variance, when everyone is trying to make the same item with the same augment slot?

 

Now, you may disagree with me, but to me if one has a "niche", then one is able to offer a product or service that is able made by a very small few.

 

So I ask you, where's the "niche" when everyone is able to craft the same thing?

 

 

The niche is that you need to obtain the orange item and get that 1 chance crit on it to sell it.

 

Your point seems to be that there should be some sort of timer on gear to create the need to eventually repurchase it from the crafters but i dont think discussing such suggestions is the point of this thread. Its about how the new system works.

[Tarka]

The niche is that you need to obtain the orange item and get that 1 chance crit on it to sell it.

 

Your point seems to be that there should be some sort of timer on gear to create the need to eventually repurchase it from the crafters but i dont think discussing such suggestions is the point of this thread. Its about how the new system works.

 

/facepalm.

 

You do realise that the chance to gain schematics from RE is increasing don't you?

 

Reverse engineering has shown to be a surprisingly popular mechanic practiced by a large number of our players. With this update, the team has not only significantly increased the chances of successfully researching a new schematic through reverse engineering, but also improved the overall functionality of the reverse engineering system.

 

Just think about how an increase in chance in RE can greatly affect the possibilities of crafters creating a "niche" for themselves using the items and their current level of availability in the game. In a word, it has a negative effect on that goal. Resulting in EXACTLY the same situation that we are in now. With just one more slot involved.

 

And no, I didn't mention any kind of "timer". I suggested that an economy only really works when there is a "supply and demand" system in place for an item. But when there is no reason to supply something (because it has an infinite lifespan), then the demand for it diminishes.

 

Essentially the crafting situation in TOR separates the aethetics of an item, away from the stats of an item, and puts both in the hands of the user of the item, not the crafter. Thus The crafters are forced to churn out the same items as every other crafter is.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Tarka

[Lhaim]

The quote is under a seperate paragraph in the blog, and nowhere does it mention that armormechs/synthweavers will be able to get a schematic for every orange armor piece there is ingame.

 

TheArmormech/Synthweaver paragraphs dont mention schematics at all they talk about "empty shells" thus my question few pages ago what exactly these shells are and are they 1 chance only items which would render them pretty rare.

 

If you dont mention a timer mechanic or whatever how would you than create a supply and demand chain if not through gear decreasing in quality until its unusable?

Edited March 20, 2012 by Lhaim

[Tarka]

The quote is under a seperate paragraph in the blog, and nowhere does it mention that armormechs/synthweavers will be able to get a schematic for every orange armor piece there is ingame.

 

TheArmormech/synthweaver paragraphs dont mention schematics at all they talk about "empty shells" thus my question few pages ago what exactly these shells are and are thy 1 chance only items which would render them pretty rare.

 

If you dont mention a timer mechanic or whatever how would you than create a supply and demand chain if not through gear decreasing in quality until its unusable?

 

Well, I won't speak for the devs, but to me "empty shell" is synonymous with "moddable orange item". For the latter IS essentially an empty shell. It contains no mods.

 

As for the "timer" question, the answer to that is a more robust system that puts more emphasis on time and money sinks than the current system does. But of course, such notions are dirty words in a game that allows modification of items "on the fly".

 

Which is all ironic and amusing considering Bioware have recently admitted that players are hitting max level quicker than anticipated.

 

I hate to use the term....but "Well duh!"

Edited March 20, 2012 by Tarka

[dnoisette]

I think the very problem here has to do with our understanding of what "an empty orange custom shell" actually means.

 

Two options :

 

1. By REing an orange item you learn the schematic for this item. That would make possible to craft the same item indefinitely to make it crit and sell it for as long as you hold the recipe.

 

2. By REing an orange item you get a UNIQUE version of the said item that you cannot reproduce. That would imply, although I really need to have some light shed on this point, that the version of the orange item you get necessarily has 4 empty slots (including an augment one, if not what would be the point in REing it ). If this hypothesis is valid however, then what would be the odds to get said augmented version of the basic orange item ?

 

I'd really like the devs to make it clearer, that would prevent a lot of whinning.

Edited March 20, 2012 by dnoisette

[Chef_BoyRUdead]

Like the old saying goes: "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".

 

Please read my post again. Note how many slots I mentioned.

Then imagine EVERY cybertech making the EXACT same critted item as you are.

 

Do you REALLY think that adding an augment slot actually creates much variance, when everyone is trying to make the same item with the same augment slot?

 

Now, you may disagree with me, but to me if one has a "niche", then one is able to offer a product or service that is able made by a very small few.

 

So I ask you, where's the "niche" when everyone is able to craft the same thing?

 

When everyone is a "hero", then no one is.

Likewise, when everyone can craft the same thing, then there are no "niches".

 

Which exact same item do you believe everyone is going to be making?

 

Just through my one playthrough without looking very hard I have orange pieces from about 10 different sets, and that isn't even counting purple items which will be able to be crafted into moddable items.

 

So no, there will not be pages of the exact same item. There will be repeats of the more popular ones to be sure.

 

But of course, given a long enough period of time, if zero new content added, if expirations are removed from the GTN, and enough crafters with enough time on their hands, you are 100% correct. You will see pages and pages of probably the 5 or so most popular orange sets for each of the 8 advanced classes.

[ApocalypseDan]

I love you, Georg. Thank you.

[Rogirek]

I have a question pertaining to Armoring, and the fact that Cybertech is the only crafting source for that mod type.

 

I feel that Synthweaving should be able to make Strength & Willpower Armoring, and Armormech should be able to make Aim/Cunning armoring. Cybertech would still have the advantage of being able to craft ALL types of Armoring. Mod modifications make sense as a Cybertech-exclusive, but the Armoring for the item that a Synthweaver/Armormech makes.... it really seems like if they could make the item then they would be able to make the Armoring for it (since that's the entire purpose of having made a piece of armor in the first place; its Armor).

 

This would make Synthweaving and Armormech far more practical for the people with these Crew Skills, who wish to use the Custom gear they make while leveling. Is it likely that we'll ever see any cross-Crew-Skill functionality such as this? Or is the fact that one Crew Skill has something always going to make it strictly exclusive to that Crew Skill only (which Augments sort of already go against, to a small extent)?

 

EDIT: In other news, saying "Mod mods" or "Mod modifications" sounds very odd and vague, even though I'm obviously referring to the mod type literally called "Mod"

Edited March 20, 2012 by Rogirek

[Tarka]

Which exact same item do you believe everyone is going to be making?

 

Spot the difference:

Pre 1.2:

Pick an item, send your companion off on a crew skill and hope for a crit.

 

Post 1.2:

Pick an item, send your companion off on a crew skill and hope for a crit.

 

• All copies of the same item looking the same. No variation in aesthetics.
  
• All "empty" shells or mods. Forget about selling non-moddable gear at end game.
  
• Majority of schematics readily available to that particular crew skills profession. With exception of the "raid gear" items which creates a separation between "raiding crafters" from "non raiding crafters". Screwing over the latter.
  

 

Just through my one playthrough without looking very hard I have orange pieces from about 10 different sets, and that isn't even counting purple items which will be able to be crafted into moddable items.

 

So no, there will not be pages of the exact same item. There will be repeats of the more popular ones to be sure.

 

But of course, given a long enough period of time, if zero new content added, if expirations are removed from the GTN, and enough crafters with enough time on their hands, you are 100% correct. You will see pages and pages of probably the 5 or so most popular orange sets for each of the 8 advanced classes.

 

Have you checked the GTN recently? Of course, that's assuming you are on a heavily populated server

Edited March 20, 2012 by Tarka

[Phydra]

Finally a restraining bolt!!!! Can't wait to shut him up!!!!

 

This. Oh great, shining stars of the infinite galaxies, THIS!

[Nymerias]

I have a question pertaining to Armoring, and the fact that Cybertech is the only crafting source for that mod type.

 

I feel that Synthweaving should be able to make Strength & Willpower Armoring, and Armormech should be able to make Aim/Cunning armoring. Cybertech would still have the advantage of being able to craft ALL types of Armoring. Mod modifications make sense as a Cybertech-exclusive, but the Armoring for the item that a Synthweaver/Armormech makes.... it really seems like if they could make the item then they would be able to make the Armoring for it (since that's the entire purpose of having made a piece of armor in the first place; its Armor).

 

This would make Synthweaving and Armormech far more practical for the people with these Crew Skills, who wish to use the Custom gear they make while leveling. Is it likely that we'll ever see any cross-Crew-Skill functionality such as this? Or is the fact that one Crew Skill has something always going to make it strictly exclusive to that Crew Skill only (which Augments sort of already go against, to a small extent)?

 

EDIT: In other news, saying "Mod mods" or "Mod modifications" sounds very odd and vague, even though I'm obviously referring to the mod type literally called "Mod"

 

I second this idea

[dnoisette]

Another thought just stroke me:

 

If only Armormech can RE orange items then that would mean force users will have to rely on the crafters with said profession for the appearance they want for their weapons and armors ? While non-force users could get any skin they want by REing the item concerned without having to worry about checking the GTN in hope that another crafter would have got them the item they want ? This needs some clarifications...

[Lhaim]

Well, I won't speak for the devs, but to me "empty shell" is synonymous with "moddable orange item". For the latter IS an empty shell.

 

Thats not an schematic is it? Its not infinite use, its a 1 time chance for an augumented item thus rendering some of them very rare. If its like that thats a pretty cool system as it encourages people to farm/buy those pieces and than take a chance at re´ing them.

 

If you take into account what a pain it is to actually obtain some of those pieces i doubt there will be a gtn full of 4 slot battlelord chests. If it ever comes to this im sure there will be plenty new pieces inagme that wil be sought by the playerbase.

 

The current implementation is far from perfect but its a MASSIVE step to more variety.

[Tarka]

Thats not an schematic is it? Its not infinite use, its a 1 time chance for an augumented item thus rendering some of them very rare. If its like that thats a pretty cool system as it encourages people to farm/buy those pieces and than take a chance at re´ing them.

 

If you take into account what a pain it is to actually obtain some of those pieces i doubt there will be a gtn full of 4 slot battlelord chests. If it ever comes to this im sure there will be plenty new pieces inagme that wil be sought by the playerbase.

 

The current implementation is far from perfect but its a MASSIVE step to more variety.

I think that perhaps you are reading too much into the blog:

Armormech crafters may now reverse engineer almost any modifiable outfit into an empty custom (orange) shell of the same name and appearance, which may now gain an augment slot when crafted with critical success.

 

It clearly states "orange" which is referring to the moddable type of item that is already in the game.

 

The blog is doubling up on what it says, perhaps to "flesh it out" a little.

Which seems to be the norm these days, especially for bioware's patch notes.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Tarka

[Aqilon]

Will the non-biochimists be able to use re-usable medpacks and stims or not ?

 

And will the rakata belt / bracers crafted still BoP ?

[dnoisette]

I think that perhaps your reading too much into the blog:

Armormech crafters may now reverse engineer almost any modifiable outfit into an empty custom (orange) shell of the same name and appearance, which may now gain an augment slot when crafted with critical success.

 

It clearly states "orange" which is referring to the moddable type of item that is already in the game.

 

The blog is doubling up on what it says. Which seems to be the norm these days for bioware's patch notes.

 

Sadly, you're right. This debate won't lead to anything consctructive until we get an answer from the devs themselves. I sometimes have a feeling blog posts are written by more than one person, thus making them messy and unclear.

 

DEVS ?

Edited March 20, 2012 by dnoisette

[Tarka]

Sadly, you're right. This debate won't lead to anything consctructive until we get an answer from the devs themselves. I sometimes have a feeling blog posts are written by more than one person, thus making them messy and unclear.

 

DEVS ?

 

Quite possibly.

[Lhaim]

I think that perhaps your reading too much into the blog:

Armormech crafters may now reverse engineer almost any modifiable outfit into an empty custom (orange) shell of the same name and appearance, which may now gain an augment slot when crafted with critical success.

 

It clearly states "orange" which is referring to the moddable type of item that is already in the game.

 

The blog is doubling up on what it says. Which seems to be the norm these days for bioware's patch notes.

 

 

My english sux sry but what are you trying to say?

 

Yes it will create a moddable item but its not an schematic, you will not be able to create an endless amount of those pieces just by reverse engineering 1 original. If i am wrong why do they call it an empty shell and not a schematic?

Edited March 20, 2012 by Lhaim

[jmarFTL]

And when EVERYONE is able to craft the same item, AND crit it, then what happens?

 

I'll give you a moment to think about that.......

 

Here's a clue:

Imagine a whole pages of identical clothing, all the same colour, all the same design, all with the same number of slots (4 of them).

 

No, being a crafter ISN'T a "niche". Why? Because there are lots of other crafters, all making the same thing to the same level of quality, with the same colour. NO variation at all. ALL ways of creating variation (both in aethetics and stats) are put into the hands of those who buy the items. Not those who make them.

 

And for those crafters who aren't raiders, tough schnitt. Because they can never offer items for sale that are competitive.

 

In short:

• There is no "supply and demand" for particular items, when said items are never given reasons to be taken out of the economy. In other words, they are never actually "consumed".
  
• There is no variation in aethetics, when a "colour matching" system is implemented that puts the power to change the colour of items into the hands of the user, not the crafter.
  
• There is no variation in stats of crafted items, when users have the power to exchange those stats at will.
  

 

Thus every crafter resorts to trying to sell "empty" moddable items and mods to go in them. With much much variation in stats and NO variation in aethetics on any one particular model of item.

 

No, you're still not getting it. The empty moddable items ARE different. That's where you find your niche.

 

Let's say I want the Trooper armor from the Maelstrom flashpoint. I like the look of it. If I'm not a crafter, I can go and get that armor anytime I want, but it won't ever have an augment slot in it.

 

Now let's say I'm a crafter. I think the armor looks cool and there's a market for it. I go run the flashpoint and get it to drop. I RE it and learn the schematic. Cool, now I can make that exact appearance as much as I want. And I can sell that on the GTN.

 

The incentive to buy this from a crafter is high for the non-crafter, because they can't get that item otherwise. They can only run the FP and get the non-augmented version.

 

This is where the variation comes in. You're selling appearances. There are a bunch of different orange armors in the game, all with unique appearances. And yes, the color matching will limit this somewhat, but you still need to have the right color on your chestpiece in order to get the appearance you want.

 

So the life of a crafter will be hunting down the orange versions of these armors, and REing until they learn the schematic. Then learning the schematic until they crit and selling that. That will be a BIS piece with a unique appearance that they can sell to other people who want to look that way, but don't want to put the time and energy into tracking down each appearance in order to RE it and learn the schematic themselves (and they'd also have to have the requisite crew skill and mats to make it).

 

This gives crafters them the option to make a BIS version of every single orange item in the game, if they put in the time and energy for it. That's a TON of variety, not the same item over and over again. There's going to be a market for that, especially from the people who are sticking to Biochem/Cybertech.

 

And you're still wrong about raiding. I have several orange schematics right now that don't require any raiding materials. These will be able to crit when 1.2 goes live and make BIS pieces.

Edited March 20, 2012 by jmarFTL

[Giolon]

As a Synthweaver since launch who loves to make moddable equipment, what I'd really like to see is the ability to make a moddable version out of any Premium Quality piece of loot or better. These armors exist in more color variations than there are Moddable patterns. Some of them I really like the look of and would be able to keep wearing by outfitting them with better quality modifications as I level up. I think it would be nice if you sold "dyes" or some other process that would let players choose between the various color variations that are seen on any given armor model.

 

Also, I'm confused about being able to remove mods and set bonuses from Raid armor and craft new moddable versions (for critting). The dev post says it can be done for Tier 2 armor. What about the existing Tier 1 armor? If it won't work on the Tier 1 armor we already have, I will be quite disappointed.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Giolon