6 second RS. Lets put the crying to rest.

[Assaultrooper]

While still left to chance, didn't they significantly increase the possibility of it proccing to go along with the 6 ICD?

 

Read all the posts the increase was of 15 percent. Giving a total of 45 percent flame burst, and 60 percent rocket punch to trigger the proc so yea on average it takes two attacks.

[Iserath]

i just want to be able to use IGC.... before the target just had to be burning.. thats what i used incendiary missile... if they really wanna keep it at 6 seconds thats fine... JUST LET ME USE MY ION GAS CYLINDER Both my guys are bounty hunters.. my merc cant pvp as arsenal cause i constantly get LOS'd and interrupted interrupted interrupted..

[DexenOnone]

If they are all gonna cry about it, let them reroll marauders. Those of us who don't think the sky is falling will be happy to destroy them when they show up in our WZs. It's pretty sad how many people are crying nerf. Adjusting classes happen, especially when the game is this young. But you're not reading this anyway, right? Cause you already unsubbed. (that wont happen)

[Theology]

Actually we didnt unsub, you posted in the wrong thread. You want this thread.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=370570&page=8

 

 

We simply stated why 6 seconds is too long, showed everyone the math and logic behind it, and are hoping bioware re-adjusts.

[ACMessiah]

I have levelled a vanguard on the pts to investigate this issue myself.

 

Here is my review.

 

In short, the internal cooldown is actually really good in long sustained fights. Heat management is not an issue, really. To reiterate what others have said the 6 second timer starts when you proc. So Rocket Punch(Proc)>Rail Shot>Filler>Filler>Start fishing again is the rotation. First problem is that there is no icon to tell you when you can start again, you have to head count/or look at RS cooldown and start when it hits 10.5 seconds.

 

The main problem with this mechanic comes in broken up fights/fights with people dying/stuns etc. Essentially PVP.

 

The problem is that due to the RNG nature of RP and FB, whilst managing heat (and stuns/breaks in combat etc), it is common for Rail Shot to not have procced and be at around 6 seconds to come off cooldown on it's own. THIS is where it breaks down. Why should I fish for a proc for Rail shot when it's coming up on cooldown anyway? So you stop using Flame Burst and Rocket Punch for 4 global cooldowns. At this point you can get heat back, or use unload/IM if you have good heat at the time. This then sets you up for another RS>RP>RS combo. But the problem is in that 6 second window, you cannot switch targets, use FB to slow/dot anyone, because if you do you just messed up and procced when you didn't want to. It is horribly clunky, and destroys whatever flow the class has in PVE.

Edited March 31, 2012 by ACMessiah

[jitsuo]

wrong. This is what everyone still crying thinks. Completely wrong.......just wait till 1.2 goes live if u dont believe me.

 

You're a joke. the proc rates have been upped 15%, which is very little. You have to wait at LEAST 7.5 seconds no matter what. 9 seconds will be closer to the norm

[Theology]

I have levelled a vanguard on the pts to investigate this issue myself.

 

Here is my review.

 

In short, the internal cooldown is actually really good in long sustained fights. Heat management is not an issue, really. To reiterate what others have said the 6 second timer starts when you proc. So Rocket Punch(Proc)>Rail Shot>Filler>Filler>Start fishing again is the rotation. First problem is that there is no icon to tell you when you can start again, you have to head count/or look at RS cooldown and start when it hits 10.5 seconds.

 

The main problem with this mechanic comes in broken up fights/fights with people dying/stuns etc. Essentially PVP.

 

The problem is that due to the RNG nature of RP and FB, whilst managing heat (and stuns/breaks in combat etc), it is common for Rail Shot to not have procced and be at around 6 seconds to come off cooldown on it's own. THIS is where it breaks down. Why should I fish for a proc for Rail shot when it's coming up on cooldown anyway? So you stop using Flame Burst and Rocket Punch for 4 global cooldowns. At this point you can get heat back, or use unload/IM if you have good heat at the time. This then sets you up for another RS>RP>RS combo. But the problem is in that 6 second window, you cannot switch targets, use FB to slow/dot anyone, because if you do you just messed up and procced when you didn't want to. It is horribly clunky, and destroys whatever flow the class has in PVE.

 

This, exactly. Thanks for this post. Worded excellently.

[ACMessiah]

No problem, I'm glad that others are raising/supporting this issue.

 

I was thinking a lot about this today, and in it's current form I realized that the 'obvious' rotation is actually not optimal (for pvp). I came up with a new rotation, that helps with a number of issues.

 

So, assuming everything is off cooldown to start, and that procs happen first time (just for ease to show the principle), here are my thoughts.

 

Opener-standard

TD>IM>RS>RP>RS>Filler>Filler

 

We can now fish for Rail Shot again.

 

Flame Burst>Rail Shot>Filler>Filler>Rocket Punch>Rail Shot>Filler>Filler etc

 

This would be the standard rotation continued in pve. However, the internal cooldown does not rely on when you cast rail shot, so it is actually better to cast rail shot right before you can fish for it again! This gives us:

 

Flame Burst(procs)>Filler>Filler>Rail Shot(the procced one)>Rocket Punch(procs)>Rail Shot

 

This means that your 3rd rail shot comes 3 seconds later than it would in the first rotation, but that you get a second massive burst of RS>RP>RS. Instead of Rail Shots being at best 3 globals apart, they are now at best 1 global apart. That is insane, sustained burst. Average rail shot's per minute would be the same, but by delaying that procced rail shot you get awesome pvp burst damage spikes.

 

PS. Saving Rail Shot until the last moment also has a great secondary benefit. It means that you can start fishing for a new Rail Shot straight away, thus a lot earlier in it's cooldown time, so less often will you get into the 'danger zone' of it coming off cooldown of it's own accord. (13.5 seconds as opposed to 10.5 seconds to start fishing, gives you two more globals to fish next time when RNG fails).

Edited March 31, 2012 by ACMessiah

[Wallach]

The big problem with this design change is that they are asking the player to play a spec that hinges pretty heavily on a singular mechanic, then telling them to make multiple decisions about that mechanic based on an invisible timer they can't see. It doesn't really matter if the math means that is a minor or severe nerf, gameplay-wise that feels like crap on the user end. It really seems like one of those changes that got made on paper and wasn't ever internally tested to see if it makes any sense in gameplay.

[Varicite]

If they are all gonna cry about it, let them reroll marauders. Those of us who don't think the sky is falling will be happy to destroy them when they show up in our WZs. It's pretty sad how many people are crying nerf. Adjusting classes happen, especially when the game is this young. But you're not reading this anyway, right? Cause you already unsubbed. (that wont happen)

 

I just find this amusing because Marauders generally murder PTs of equal skill level. I hope this guy isn't honestly assuming that every PT who is concerned w/ the changes is some kind of keyboard-turning mouthbreather, especially when their concerns are actually backed up by facts. I doubt he even really has an idea what that concern is.

 

Most of them would most likely destroy him simply due to class advantage if they reroll Marauders, assuming he's not the paragon of extreme Powertech excellence that I'm sure he'll claim to be in a moment.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Varicite

[Agooz]

I just find this amusing because Marauders generally murder PTs of equal skill level. I hope this guy isn't honestly assuming that every PT who is concerned w/ the changes is some kind of keyboard-turning mouthbreather, especially when their concerns are actually backed up by facts. I doubt he even really has an idea what that concern is.

 

Most of them would most likely destroy him simply due to class advantage if they reroll Marauders, assuming he's not the paragon of extreme Powertech excellence that I'm sure he'll claim to be in a moment.

 

Marauders never did or will ever murder PTs(Pyros). Since we are one of the least represented ACs, maybe you just havent seen any decent ones. Out of 10 encounters vs a marauder/sent, I may lose 1 or if I am having a bad day 2. The fight can be prolonged when they pop their cd at the end, but any pyro with experience knows how to deal with that. With the nerf of 1.2, I may lose 3-4 times out of 10 encounters with a marauder. Still hardly and far from being considered "murder". Hec, I am pretty sure I'll still own marauders with a 8/31/2 spec with IGC.

[Poulay]

Marauders never did or will ever murder PTs(Pyros). Since we are one of the least represented ACs, maybe you just havent seen any decent ones. Out of 10 encounters vs a marauder/sent, I may lose 1 or if I am having a bad day 2. The fight can be prolonged when they pop their cd at the end, but any pyro with experience knows how to deal with that. With the nerf of 1.2, I may lose 3-4 times out of 10 encounters with a marauder. Still hardly and far from being considered "murder". Hec, I am pretty sure I'll still own marauders with a 8/31/2 spec with IGC.

 

this is not true

[PurpleMagick]

Remember everyone that its a 6-second internal cooldown to PPA not rail shot.

 

You can still cast rail shot twice in a row.

Rail Shot, PPA procs, Rail Shot again.

 

PPA just won't proc again for another 6 seconds. So no more 3-in-a-rows.

[Theology]

Remember everyone that its a 6-second internal cooldown to PPA not rail shot.

 

You can still cast rail shot twice in a row.

Rail Shot, PPA procs, Rail Shot again.

 

PPA just won't proc again for another 6 seconds. So no more 3-in-a-rows.

 

That would require waiting 15 seconds for rail shot's normal CD to expire, thus creating more heat poblems than what already exists post 1.2.

[Brules]

Pretty sure every class forum has complaints of a nerf in them. Its not like BH is the only class that took a hit from the changes.

 

 

Adapt or fail.

[Varicite]

Marauders never did or will ever murder PTs(Pyros). Since we are one of the least represented ACs, maybe you just havent seen any decent ones. Out of 10 encounters vs a marauder/sent, I may lose 1 or if I am having a bad day 2. The fight can be prolonged when they pop their cd at the end, but any pyro with experience knows how to deal with that. With the nerf of 1.2, I may lose 3-4 times out of 10 encounters with a marauder. Still hardly and far from being considered "murder". Hec, I am pretty sure I'll still own marauders with a 8/31/2 spec with IGC.

 

I play a PT, and Maras on my server are pretty decent. They will murder you. : )

 

All else being equal, a Mara is a direct counter to a PT due to class design.

 

Obfuscate and Saber Ward will wreck your Rail Shots. Saber Ward will also reduce your internal/elemental damage by 50%. Vanish is a 100% damage reduction, and good for stalling while their dots tick on you. They heal themselves as much as our 3 minute cooldown, but constantly. Their damage will ramp up to be just as good as our damage, and they have the defenses to last long enough for this to happen. Their snare is as good as our snare, and lasts longer for less resources, so you won't be kiting them. If by chance, you do get distance, they will leap on you.

 

I'm definitely not saying you will always lose to a Mara, we've all beaten them. But I know some pretty scary ones that I don't think I could ever beat as a PT, outside of luck. Not because I suck (I'm not the best, but I do okay), but simply because their class has an answer for most of what I can do.

[Rabbitfoot]

wrong. This is what everyone still crying thinks. Completely wrong.......just wait till 1.2 goes live if u dont believe me.

 

First you say we dont understand how it works. Then you accuse us of crying when we are voicing totally legit concerns about how effective our class will be. Now that theology has disproven your metawhine you are asking us in having fate in your ability to correctly assess the information from the pts, which you btw dont claim to have any firsthand knowledge about.

 

Please dont discuss when you dont know what you are talking about.

[Kaarsa]

That would require waiting 15 seconds for rail shot's normal CD to expire, thus creating more heat poblems than what already exists post 1.2.

 

Or you can proc PPA, use 2 GCD for anything else, then RS, RP (with a chance to proc), RS.

 

Simple as that:)

[Turn-XGundam]

i don't know what the crying is, we'll just be cannon fodder now. easy kill for shadows/marauders. they won't whine about us anymore.

[Theology]

Or you can proc PPA, use 2 GCD for anything else, then RS, RP (with a chance to proc), RS.

 

Simple as that:)

 

You could do that, but still results in even worse heat management.

[Kaarsa]

You could do that, but still results in even worse heat management.

 

As long as you dont overheat (ie. You started with heat low enough for rapid shots+TD, so around 20 heat when you proc first PPA) heat management is exactly the same.

[ACMessiah]

Or you can proc PPA, use 2 GCD for anything else, then RS, RP (with a chance to proc), RS.

 

Simple as that:)

 

This will become the best rotation. Heat management is fine(comparable to live), and it creates great spikes of double rail shots every 5 global cooldowns!

[Humankeg]

This is what the cool down will make our timers look like when trying to proc a RS:

 

0.0 seconds: FB or RP -> RS proc activated right when ability is used.

 

1.5 seconds: Use RS.

 

3.0 seconds: FB or RP -> no chance at a proc

 

4.5 seconds: FB or RP -> no chance at a proc

 

6.0 seconds: FB or RP -> chance of proc

 

Essentially PT/VG will have to cycle through at least 2 more GCD's (at least 3 seconds longer) between each RS proc.

 

The thing I am most worried about, is proc'ing RS at the very begining of a fight and lining up 2 rs's in a short span of time. A GREAT amount of pyro burst is being able to:

 

TD -> FB -> RS -> FB(proc) -> RS

 

Ideally it will still look like the above, but with the way the proc works, we will be seeing a lot of:

 

TD -> FB(proc) -> RS -> FB -> FB -> FB(proc) -> RS

 

To be able to line up 2 RS's in a short span (3 seconds), your opening might look like this:

 

TD -> FB(proc) -> FB -> FB -> RS -> FB(proc) -> RS

 

With this rotation listed above, you will not be lining up your TD with either of your RS procs, which hurts burst and makes healing much easier.

 

In order to make sure you line up your TD with RS and have a chance at being able to use back to back RS's, your rotation will look like this:

 

TD -> IM -> RS -> FB(proc) -> RS

 

or

 

FB(hope for no proc) -> TD -> RS -> FB(proc) -> RS

 

Both of these rotations are less then ideal. The first one will severely gimp you in the heat department, as IM is very heat expensive, and the 2nd rotation requires "BAD" luck in order to not proc a RS on the opening FB.

 

I think lowering the heat cost of IM and TD will help substantially in managing heat, because as it was, heat management was already pretty poor and regularly required lucky streaks of procs in order to dish out damage.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Humankeg