Operatives - prepare for another nerf!

[Theagg]

This just has me asking. With the lengthy beta testing how is it Bioware could have got a class so 'wrong' (from their perspective obviously)

 

When to comes to 'nerfs', given this class alone (Operative/Scoundrel) has borned the brunt of such changes, it's hardly surprising those who play that class will feel somewhat cheesed off.

 

But still, I have seen single lvl 50 Operatives regularly take down other reasonably well geared lvl 50's in a matter of seconds in wz's, without the need to restealth to pull off a second 'Hidden Strike', so as is, it's hardly a broken class.

 

However, to all those who tell us Scoundrel/Operatives that our stealth is the gap closer. It's not as easy as that. Sure, if you can pick off individuals, you stand a good chance of closing that gap. However, picking off individuals, is not without its risk.(Especially once they call in ranged support fire once you are out of stealth.) But in many WZ's where a large melee is in full swing, it's never guarenteed. You can be seen approaching, even in stealth, in the forward arc of vision from quite a distance. Getting a good position in a messy brawl without being seen takes some doing. It's not always possible.

 

Large scale brawls often result in many AoE's and knockbacks going off simultaneously and in succession, which blow stealth. Those who can leap/pull as a gap closer don't have to take any of these things into consideration. Put simply, stealth as a 'gap gloser' is not an equivalent to other forms of getting up close quickly.

[namelless]

But still, I have seen single lvl 50 Operatives regularly take down other reasonably well geared lvl 50's in a matter of seconds in wz's, without the need to restealth to pull off a second 'Hidden Strike', so as is, it's hardly a broken class.

 

That only ever happens if:

-Player is bad(backpedalling with the reaction time of an 80yr old)

-Op has Relic popped

-Op has Stim popped

-Op scores a lot of lucky crits

 

If anything they should have just nerfed biochem

[Bloodguard]

Operatives suck now. They are a HORRIBLE class. The upcoming patch makes us suck even more. I am a healer. We are no competition in pve or pvp. Our stats suck. Our hits suck.

 

I read all the other classes getting massive buffs, and us getting %&^%^ing hammered.

 

Bioware is a bunch of idiots who have no idea what the hell they are doing.

 

Honestly. They are stupid.

[WaliceDrel]

Awesome!!! The agent needs a nerf.

[Proppa]

I disliked stealth in DAOC to, I was the Paladin team lead, maybe you saw me there .

 

But I do see operatives doing very well on my server. I will try and fraps them next time I see them.

 

Make fun of me all you want, do it in PM or anything I don't take this forum/world serious to worry about what people say about me on the internet.

 

I have 3 level 50's, but I don't have much experience of the stealthing classes or operatives and I've admitted that. But all I see on these forum's is QQ posts from operatives without any real facts, screenshots/vids to prove how low their damage is.

 

The trouble I had with stealthers in DAOC is they would often be multiples taking on lower numbers. My experience with Op's in this game is much the same story. It's all about wether you have time to react or not. I see people rage in Warzones constantly after these 2/3/4 operatives focus fire any target and watch them drop.

 

On my Vanguard tank, they aren't as much of a problem 1v1. But when you see party members drop within seconds by 1 or several and you couldn't do a thing to prevent it but get stun locked.

 

As I said, I don't intentionally come here to rile people and if you stopped treating everyone who has a difference of opinion to you as a troll and actually had a civil discussion and took the time to correct my false statements or lack of knowledge then you would be educating people as to why they are problematic, opposed to why I'm a terrible player or whatever.

[FourTwent]

Its sad to see this thread filled with so many spelling/grammatical mistakes. . .

[Maxkardinal]

Its sad to see this thread filled with so many spelling/grammatical mistakes. . .

Its obviously because everyone whos not happy are illiterate punks and, of coure, not becouse some people have English not their native.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Maxkardinal

[Ozzone]

Its sad to see this thread filled with so many spelling/grammatical mistakes. . .

 

It's.

[DariuszPol]

Seriously - learn to play first. Then GET REAL (4 vs 1 complain ? seriously ?), then TRY playing Operative at lvl 50, then LEARN HOW TO PLAY Operative and THEN write serious comment that have some VALUE. Response in Orange.

 

I disliked stealth in DAOC to, I was the Paladin team lead, maybe you saw me there .

 

But I do see operatives doing very well on my server. I will try and fraps them next time I see them.

 

You see Operatives... so you have 0 experience as one. Most of your complains here are "OMG, 4 OPERATIVES GANK ME AND KILLED ME". Again - are you proffesional troll or something ?

 

Make fun of me all you want, do it in PM or anything I don't take this forum/world serious to worry about what people say about me on the internet.

 

I have 3 level 50's, but I don't have much experience of the stealthing classes or

 

Nope, you have 0 experience with stealth classes. You have 0 experience fighting with them. You have very low experience in PVP... or you just trolling.

 

operatives and I've admitted that. But all I see on these forum's is QQ posts from operatives without any real facts, screenshots/vids to prove how low their damage is.

 

Should I put here math, videos and screenshoots ? This post is for Operatives and people that know operatives. Not for you. You have no idea what you are talking about and you are trolling.

 

The trouble I had with stealthers in DAOC is they would often be multiples taking on lower numbers. My experience with Op's in this game is much the same story. It's all about wether you have time to react or not. I see people rage in Warzones constantly after these 2/3/4 operatives focus fire any target and watch them drop.

I see 2/3/4 Operatives/Snipers/Maruders/Juggenouts/Mercenaries/Powertechs/Sorcerers/Assasins focus fire on ANY target and watch them drop. Again - you are trolling.

 

On my Vanguard tank, they aren't as much of a problem 1v1. But when you see party members drop within seconds by 1 or several and you couldn't do a thing to prevent it but get stun locked.

 

So you just admit that Operatives are no threat to you because of your high defense and high HP pool and you complain because your friend lost 2,3 or 4 vs 1 fight.... you are serious or just trolling ?

 

As I said, I don't intentionally come here to rile people and if you stopped treating everyone who has a difference of opinion to you as a troll and actually had a civil

 

So stop trolling about "how 4 operatives kill me..." and get real. Start normal discussion. You just said that Operatives are no threat to you... So what... when 4 Mercenaries focus fire on you and you drop dead in 2 seconds you have no complain even when you can't do anything because 30m range but when Operative that have 0-10m range came close to you you have problem ? Troll is a troll because he is a troll.

 

discussion and took the time to correct my false statements or lack of knowledge then you would be educating people as to why they are problematic, opposed to why I'm a terrible player or whatever.

 

So if you have no knowledge, experience or anything then... why are you talking ? Make a topic "OMG, 4 OPERATIVES KILLED ME IN 4 VS 1. NERF OPERATIVES" and see how people will laugh their asses because of you.

 

Troll is a troll because he is a troll

Stop feeding the troll.

 

Back to topic. I do agree with Hidden strike. 7.5 seconds cooldown IS reasonable since that prevent 2x high dmg attacks one after another. But again that attack was a trade. We were required to sacrifice vanish for that. And without vanish we have 0 ability to hide AND without gap closer we are just big walking target ready to drop dead.

Edited March 17, 2012 by DariuszPol

[Proppa]

I read these threads to gauge what other classes are like, I will get round to leveling an Op/Scoundrel next probably but I never really enjoyed playing stealth classes.

 

I said it's from what I see/read in the Warzones. Go ask Lafi on the Shadow Runner how many 1v1's he has lost. I will try and fraps him and how quickly he drops players. My vanguard has 611 expertise and my Sentinel 480. My Vanguard was valor 46 when he dinged 50, my sentinel valor 40 and my Sorc etc. I primarily PvP in this game.

 

I'm not trying to complain, I understand 4v1 that class is likely to drop. Although like I said, I have the oppurtunity to REACT to players which aren't stealthed. I can see them coming, I can prevent however many of them from reaching us then gradually pick them off. But I see people rage quit warzones etc after Operatives just drop them very quickly.

 

I'm also trying to add a different view point to what would otherwise be a very 1 sided arguement. I see people complain about Operatives burst dps a lot. If you want to take the time, as you did to explain things rather than try belittling everyone who either disagrees or doesn't understand then you do that.

 

Yes 4 merc's can focus fire me, but I can position myself out of LOS/Range either before they attack me or I can push in and AE stun them, whilst we focus them down.

 

Do you understand what I say, about having the chance to react? A stealther pop's on you and kills you before you have time to recover from the stuns (unless you're purge is always up). Any other class you can see coming, position yourself, CC them etc. Quite often from what I've seen (your experience may be completely different), the Operatives will stab->stun then drop the target. Not every target I agree. But the complaint from many is they literally can't react to what they can't see.

 

From being a team lead in DAOC, I can tell you that was one of the biggest complaints people gave. Having no time to react. I know this game isn't DAOC but the principle is the same. If people can't react and it's a case of move out, get killed by stealth, release, rinse, repeat it gets old for people.

[ShizuXIII]

The anti-stealth scrub must be very mad. He cowardly reported me and got me a warning.

Probably because I called the pvp developers "amateurs" as well and insulted a ping-pong ball.

 

But I'm seeing people calling them idiots or worse (completely agree), so I think "amateurs" is acceptable.

 

Don't give me another warning please.

I still have a month of paid subscriprion and I'd like to share my pvp stories in this fantastic forum

 

 

 

EDIT: stop talking about DAoC please. Your epic rage against stealth parties clearly shows that you should stick to instanced pvp and stay as far away as possible from o-pvp games.

And from their forums.

Edited March 17, 2012 by ShizuXIII

[Proppa]

Wait you think I bothered to report you? Lol. Why would I bother? Honestly mate, I don't care about the banter we have on these forums. I'd much rather have discussion and actually talk about things, if you know I'm wrong (I'm not afraid to admit / appologies when I'm wrong) then discuss it.

 

LOL epic rage? As I said, I don't take anything said on these forums or anywhere to heart. I dislike groups of stealthers yes but doesn't mean I "hate" them or anything.

 

Think what you will at the end of the day.

[Ndox]

This nerf are STUPID.... since the last nerf operatives are quitting pvp and the less players that still trying are not overpower... but now.... patetich bioware

[Kheldras]

My group are normally organised too. Sage/Vanguard/Commando/Assassin aswell as the other players. We can co-ordinate well enough between us to deal with anything we can SEE coming. But even with guard up, they will drop the sage before I see them coming.

 

The element of surprise gives Operatives a huge advantage.

 

 

You have a 4 Man Group with Sage, Vanguard, Commando and Assassin .. cool does Rated PvP allow cross-faction grouping?

 

Stealth is evil hm.. so why does a Tank-Shadow have Stealth, Guard, Pull, Forcespeed and an Opener from stealth, plus being more durable?

Edited March 17, 2012 by Kheldras

[DariuszPol]

Wait you think I bothered to report you? Lol. Why would I bother? Honestly mate, I don't care about the banter we have on these forums. I'd much rather have discussion and actually talk about things, if you know I'm wrong (I'm not afraid to admit / appologies when I'm wrong) then discuss it.

 

LOL epic rage? As I said, I don't take anything said on these forums or anywhere to heart. I dislike groups of stealthers yes but doesn't mean I "hate" them or anything.

 

Think what you will at the end of the day.

 

And yet you still have no idea what are you talking about. You "react" to 4 arsenal mercenary or pyro ? With this amount of cc we have in game you have NO tools for that. You will by stunned and drop dead before you know it.

And because your only utility is JUMP TO ENEMY you can only get CLOSE to ONE of them and then get killed.

You you have NO WAT to escape their 30m range.

 

Same with Sorc / Sniper etc...

 

But

~ if you stay in the fight Stealth class have NO WAY to approach you because there is ALWAYS some AOE around

~ your trooper friend have stealth detector on wide and low cooldown range FOR A REASON

~ you have AOE that slow down enemy. It's easy to just move away from stealth class once they pop up. I know because I play Jugg now and I do it all the time.

~ you can reduce their damage by 30% using taunts

~ you have high HP pool, once I saw Jugg with 30k HP. So that 8k you mentioned for him is like less than 30% and can be cureable by 1 med-pack...

~ we don't hit hard heavy armor classes

~ every other classes can run away, push back or something else

 

Your only argument right now is that you lost 4 vs 1 battle and you think that Operatives should be nerfed because of that. We have 1 april or something ? Maybe I don't get the joke...

[Proppa]

Where did I say I lost 4v1? Operatives are a very common class on my server. I can Harpoon a Merc to me and we can focus fire him. So yes we can 4v1 him too, but at the same time he can knock us back and escape.

 

I never said they should be nerfed either, just saying there is quite a vocal ammount of players who get frustrated by getting "ganked" by stealther's.

 

It's just about the ability to react and deal with events. It's rare that any 4 of the same player group in warzones let alone co-ordinate that well. But like I said, vs things we can see I can deal with most. I see Jug's coming we can cryo grenade, whirlwind etc. I can taunt any who get through whilst we focus them down. I doubt any 4 of 1 class would be as effective as a variety of classes.

 

But Operatives by PERCEPTION are a tough class, people get killed by them then rage. They don't realise that perhaps after they kill 1 person they get focus fire'd and killed.

 

I just think that Stealth vs Non-Stealth has always been a huge point of complaint from many gamers. It's about "seeing" what your dealing with vs having no time to react.

[Ozzone]

I never said they should be nerfed either, just saying there is quite a vocal ammount of players who get frustrated by getting "ganked" by stealther's.

 

Getting "ganked" by "stealthers" is a core element of MMORPGs and goes back to the beginning.

 

Getting frustrated means lack of skill to counter. I play a stealth DPS Operative. A good player of a different class knows how to counter me and turn the battle around quickly. All I own are bad players and they should be owned. Granted 2 on 1 is a deadly combo but since Ops are so scarce right now, I'm usually the only one left doing WZs. I still like playing my class and gotten pretty good at it, but I can only take so many nerfs myself.

 

Nerfing my core ability, in any way, is massive and the class will die. Let them stay frustrated or learn to counter.

[Proppa]

How long can you keep a player "stun-locked" for? Given the re-use on the cc-breaker in this game isn't not often up.

[Fenomen]

How long can you keep a player "stun-locked" for? Given the re-use on the cc-breaker in this game isn't not often up.

 

***? You can stunlock for 1.5+4 Seconds if Latency is in your Favour otherwise its 4 Seconds as much any other Classes Stun.

[Rafkin]

You have stealth, THAT is your gap closer!!!! Every class gets pushed/pulled/rooted/snared etc.... Not just operatives. Why is it operatives think they should be able to kill anything easily? Healers should be hard to kill, tanks should be hard to kill. Wait till you have seen the changes, starting to fix the energy issues are a good start, am sure they are not finished with the changes.

 

Lol. Stealth is not a gap closer. If you are engaged and get knocked back and snared you usually can not enter stealth. Even when you can the person is long gone before you can run back to them with your stealth run speed and snared.

 

Knock back and snare a warrior and they can just jump to you instantly. On an assassin/powertech they can pull the person to them.

[Kaluun]

Unbelievable! and you buff sentinels? Do any of you people even play a scoundrel? If this goes live I'll be heading to try Terra, sorry bio I stayed as long as I could hoping 1.2 would actually be worth staying for, but a cooldown on shootfirst and additional 3.0 seconds on back blast and a freaking lousy 5% buff!? You are totally breaking the stealth component of this class and what we are left with is reroll or leave.

 

If your going to take away our vanish and shootfirst mechanic for a lousy 5% you don't know what your doing at all. We need buffed not completely gutted.

[sumfizz]

fight with some honor, ROGUES. LOL

[Stormlorr]

You know what pisses me off most?

You wont giggle when you get tactical advantage.

Who the **** does that hurt?

It makes the class subjectively funner and doesn't affect balance at all.

Do they want to nerf fun just for ***** and giggles?

[Theagg]

That only ever happens if:

-Player is bad(backpedalling with the reaction time of an 80yr old)

-Op has Relic popped

-Op has Stim popped

-Op scores a lot of lucky crits

 

If anything they should have just nerfed biochem

 

Much of this is probably correct. As a scoundrel I have not yet managed to pull off the kill rate I have seen the top Operatives in my wz's achieve.

 

So, since I don't yet have top ranking gear (especially gear that adds 15% critical chance to Back Blast / Back stab) or a bucket load of stims etc this is probably why.

 

Mind you, it's not that back pedalling is the problem for some targeted by Ops etc, its the confusion the player being targeted seem to end up in as the Op rapidly runs round them in back and forth zig zagging circles.

 

Of course, the way to deal with that would be to get your mouse turning on the spot skill up to par so you keep facing them.

[Migrayn]

You have stealth, THAT is your gap closer!!!! Every class gets pushed/pulled/rooted/snared etc.... Not just operatives. Why is it operatives think they should be able to kill anything easily? Healers should be hard to kill, tanks should be hard to kill. Wait till you have seen the changes, starting to fix the energy issues are a good start, am sure they are not finished with the changes.

 

What energy issues. I never have energy issues in pvp as concealment. Stealth can get you into a fight, but once your knockedback(seemes every class but us has one) we have no real GAP CLOSER to get back in the fight. You get snared and kited to death.

 

No one said we should kill anything easily. However, we are supposed to be a from stealth burst class yet ourburst was already cut down. No one is being killed in one knockdown anymore. We wanted more sustained dps to offset the lack of burst. Even warriors can hit harder then ops. Instead BW is cutting our sustained dps by putting a longer cooldown on backstab and lower damage on lacerate. Thses are just uncalled for.

 

Ops have no group utility. We have no push pul knockback or any use whatsoever for battlegrounds. We lost the burst needed to take out super strong healers. Now they cut our out of stealth dps as well.

 

For rated warzones why bring an operative at all. You will be better off with another maurader or sin.

 

 

You cant design a class to be purely based on burst then take that away. It neuters the class.