Enrage Timers Counter Productive?

[Dirtybomb]

I agree with the OP. They do it purposely for a bottleneck and it serves no real purpose. They should want people to try out off-specs or even uncommon group compositions. If someone can bring a tank and seven healers and want to try and clear EV then they should be able too.

 

There are a bunch of DPS players that probably don't want to see this happen.

[Nagadeath]

There are a bunch of DPS players that probably don't want to see this happen.

 

maybe but that is one way to get more people to play tank and healer classes.

[Aloro]

There are a bunch of DPS players that probably don't want to see this happen.

 

Hmm. I'm unsure that this is really an issue, from that perspective.

 

If there were no enrage timers, then yes, it'd be possible to complete content with nontraditional groups, e.g. a tank and 3 healers. But what's really so bad about that, in concept? Does anyone really believe that groups would stop accepting dps, and everyone would roll healers and tanks? In my experience, it's more or less the reverse; dps aren't even a dime a dozen, but more like a penny for a thousand.

 

Without enrage timers, most groups would... do more or less what they do now, I expect. It'll still be more efficient to bring dps players, after all; fights go faster that way.

 

Frankly, while I am 100% in favor of challenging content, I just don't much like enrage timers. I think they encourage people to approach content with very linear thinking, and discourage lateral approaches.

[Lazzer]

So the problem is really how people perceive the result of the fight, and perception is going to differ from one person to the next. Instead of "we wiped 5 times" because they hate the enrage timer, they could be thinking "we wiped at 12%, 10% and 8%, we're getting there."

 

If they don't recognize progress with the enrage timers, they probably won't recognize progress without them either.

 

I disagree, it's the same principle as a DPS meter for people that don't watch the figures. They try a different rotation or setup and they get the boss down another 10%, people reading a DPS meter try a different setup and see a 10% increase on the figures before they wipe.

 

Same principle but the 1st supports the average player that doesn't use any form of theory crafting or calculations.

 

It's (psychologically speaking) more acceptable to the average person to fail by getting 82% in an exam with a 90% pass mark instead of a pass/fail scenario. It's about encouraging players to play without making it easier (I'm in favour of making it harder), the more that play the Operations, the more that stay the more content updates BW will give us.

[Muskaan]

But that is not what happens in raids, the way it works now is that you can take a Sunday league team give them the right kit and they will win. If you take a Premiership team and send them out with a bad kit (in game analogy) they will be beaten by the Sunday league team.

 

That's the sad state of current content. It's easy enough to not demand any min maxing.

 

However, I am hoping that in another 3-4 iterations of new ops, they will actually come up with something that's actually challenging enough to require some raid discipline.

[DarkCarnage]

i think the enrage timer while not a great idea are needed, other wise you have poeple, let say a jugg and a pimped out healing follower, pick at aboss for a hour and win. letting the boss double his output in damage is not instante death but it does stress the healers resoruces alot more and leads to death if you hit with he supermoves+engrade buff, can lead to death if health is low.(just speaking fo waht i see in HM FP and normal ops, not moved to harder versions yet)

[Dirtybomb]

It's (psychologically speaking) more acceptable to the average person to fail by getting 82% in an exam with a 90% pass mark instead of a pass/fail scenario. It's about encouraging players to play without making it easier (I'm in favour of making it harder), the more that play the Operations, the more that stay the more content updates BW will give us.

 

But my point is that people choose to see an enrage timer as a pass/fail scenario when it isn't. You are making the point that there should be a mechanic that shows players progress even when they fail, and the enrage time does do that if you stop to see it.

 

I'm not sure what theory crafting or calculations you are referring to. I haven't done any theory crafting in the traditional sense (no combat logs means no hard numbers) and there are no calculations required to know that last week we got the boss to 10% and this week we had him down to 5%. The ability to see the boss's health percentage is just an option in preferences that you can enable/disable. If you enable it, you will see the boss's health in a percentage and that is the progress you are making against the enrage timer.

 

So again, it is how the player chooses to perceive the fight. You can choose to view the fact that you keep getting closer to 0% before the enrage timer, or you can choose an all or nothing attitude after a few wipes and head to the forums to protest.

[Dirtybomb]

letting the boss double his output in damage is not instante death but it does stress the healers resoruces alot more and leads to death if you hit with he supermoves+engrade buff, can lead to death if health is low.(just speaking fo waht i see in HM FP and normal ops, not moved to harder versions yet)

 

You are absolutely right. The enrage timer does not mean automatic wipe. We've killed bosses after they enrage quite a few times. A few people die, but those that are left play smart and get him down. Anyone can head over to youtube and see plenty of boss vids where the boss is enraged for the last minute of the fight but they still get the kill.

[ferroz]

Meaning, do they force people to Min / Max their character, switch to a spec they wouldn't normally do just to make sure they have enough damage to kill some boss?

How is that counter productive?

 

 

Opinions?

they're the hallmark of lazy game development. But I wouldn't call them counterproductive

[ghettogenius]

Why would anyone want to be subpar? Either you know how to play your class or you don't. Choosing a bad spec makes you a bad player. And that is your choice and you are welcome to do so, but the content should not be gauged for bad players IMO. What challenge would be left for the good players?

 

Seriously?

 

Apparently par for you is the maximum possible. That's great you have lofty goals, but not everyone wants to play the class that edges out the most DPS or whatever. The devs created various advanced classes and the trees within them and attempted to balance them as best they despite them having different play styles. In my opinion, its easy mode to just roll with the best build possible and then laugh at others who choose a different a path.

 

Choosing a bad spec does not make someone a bad player. Playing that spec poorly is what does it. You want a real challenge? You want to be remembered for doing something original? Want to be a hero? Try rolling one of those subpar specs and doing something meaningful with it. I've always found great pleasure taking the road less traveled and being successful in doing so. It's kinda boring and much harder to stand out if your just another sorc spamming lightning or whatever the flavor of the month is.

 

The enrage timer is lame from my perspective. I see what theyre trying to do and I understand your point but they couldve gone about it in a more dynamic way. Like perhaps spawning additional mobs, more random special attacks, or changes in the immediate environment over time, not just making the boss a freaking god after x amount of time. Just my opinion of course.

[Dirtybomb]

In my opinion, its easy mode to just roll with the best build possible and then laugh at others who choose a different a path.

 

So, if you have the best possible build, then bosses just die at your feet from the site of you? No, I don't think so. Since we don't really know what the best possible builds are right now (only general builds) this is a silly argument. But, no matter what your playstyle, taking a knife to a gun fight isn't particularly bright. Go down to the park and try to play a game of pickup basketball in your bare feet, or try play a game of softball with a broomstick instead of a bat. Sure, you can still run up and down the court or hit the ball, but nowhere as well as the guys that came prepared to play. And yes, a few of them will probably laugh at the sound of your feet slapping on the pavement.

 

It is ok that people want to play however they want, but they can't expect to measure up against those that put more effort into being prepared. If the goal of this game is to allow everyone to clear content without much preparation, then yeah, do away with enrage timers (or any time-based mechanic for that matter). But if I wanted to play a game without any preparation required, I'd pull out my phone and play Angry Birds or PvZ.

[jimmymurry]

I like them, makes it far more intense and challenges players more. If you are a DPS why would you be specced to do ANYTHING other than the most DPS possible.

[Maglon]

Id rather enjoy the game content without the timers then worry if im geared to be classified as "good" enough to be part of anything. Luckily im geared out but I can see how a casual player who doesnt raid alot would have issues.

[MaliceX]

No, they are not counter productive.

 

If you cannot produce a group capable of beating the boss prior to the enrage timer, then you need to do some gearing via HM FP or make some team adjustments. Anyone can walk in and spend 2 hours on a boss and eventually kill it. This is to challenge you to do so in a timely manner.

 

Oddly enough the HM FP's drop the same gear for the most part...

[ferroz]

I like them, makes it far more intense and challenges players more. If you are a DPS why would you be specced to do ANYTHING other than the most DPS possible.

because a specialist isn't always more useful to the group than a generalist.

[Jenzali]

Enrage timers are integral to raiding and MMO's as a genre. Removing them would unravel the genre because:

 

- Without enrage timers you can stack tanks and healers making everything trivially easy (even if it takes an hour to kill the boss)

- Without enrage timers the player doesn't feel the drive to improve his or her playing skills

- Without enrage timers the player doesn't feel the drive to improve his or her gear

- Improvements in gear would not seem significant (no obvious effects since the boss will die regardless), thus further reducing the drive. Thus there is little motivation to raid past story mode, since all that's changing is having improved gear drops

- Without enrage timers, good DPS players are not valued as much, alienating most PvE players (statistically and historically, most players have always gravitated towards DPS roles)

- Without enrage timers, progression would be entirely eliminated as gear is not important. Fresh level 50's can step into the hardest raid instance provided they understand the mechanics.

- With progression all but eliminated, you've just singlehandedly reduced the content lifespan of the game

 

I'm sorry, but without enrages (soft or hard), you've pretty much unravelled the core concepts of an MMO, unless you have a magical developer team that can create unlimited content. This game isn't a sandbox where you just explore forever - at level cap, you need to buckle down and have some concept of character progression.

 

Admittedly, soft enrages are more interesting and contribute more to immersion of the fight if they are done well. Hard enrages are a bit strange from an in-universe point of view but are extremely exciting, especially if you play a DPS role. You'd know the feeling if you've been working on a boss for weeks and get it a few % lower each week due to gear upgrades, and then the cheering on Mumble/Vent as your guild downs the boss, finally. That's what raiding is all about, not whittling away on a boss for hours with 15 healers and 1 tank.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Jenzali

[Jett-Rinn]

Why would anyone want to be subpar? Either you know how to play your class or you don't. Choosing a bad spec makes you a bad player. And that is your choice and you are welcome to do so, but the content should not be gauged for bad players IMO. What challenge would be left for the good players?

 

Then why have a choice of spec why even offer a choice? The whole concept is so archaic

 

Oh you put that one point in everlasting flagellation instead Burp of doom YOU AREEEE BADDDD!!!!!

 

 

Dividing your audience into good and bad is also the single most ignorant thing any company that want's to make a profit can do

 

But... but... that's how it's always been!!!!!

 

Yeah and people use to wear paper Duck bills to ward off the plague before someone pointed out how incredibly stupid it was.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Jett-Rinn

[Aloro]

Enrage timers are integral to raiding and MMO's as a genre. Removing them would unravel the genre because:

 

- Without enrage timers you can stack tanks and healers making everything trivially easy (even if it takes an hour to kill the boss)

 

Well, no. First, it's possible to have other mechanics in fights, to maintain challenge; enrage timers are not the only way to make fights difficult, after all. Second, if a group takes an hour to kill something that other groups can kill in 5 minutes... you know what? Good for them. I'll bet it's tedious and not much fun to do it that way, but it's still an accomplishment.

 

Let's imagine two hypothetical groups: one is tank/heal/dps/dps, and one is tank/heal/heal/heal. Which one is going to have an easier time with any given encounter? Answer: we don't know. Oh, sure, it's arguable that the second group could whittle down some things the first group couldn't, but then it's arguable that the first group could defeat swarms of enemies that would completely swamp the second group.

 

What you're advocating isn't "better group make-up", it's simply tradition. We're used to content that's geared to balanced groups, but that is honestly not necessary, and I'd argue it's not desirable.

 

- Without enrage timers the player doesn't feel the drive to improve his or her playing skills

- Without enrage timers the player doesn't feel the drive to improve his or her gear

- Improvements in gear would not seem significant (no obvious effects since the boss will die regardless), thus further reducing the drive. Thus there is little motivation to raid past story mode, since all that's changing is having improved gear drops

 

You're once again assuming (wrongly) that the only POSSIBLE challenge in any fight comes from enrage timers. This remains untrue.

 

- Without enrage timers, good DPS players are not valued as much, alienating most PvE players (statistically and historically, most players have always gravitated towards DPS roles)

 

Now that's an interesting point, but I don't agree. DPS could still be very valuable, e.g. needed to defeat swarms of weak foes, that would swarm over and destroy a purely defensive group. You're simply asserting that the one way you're used to doing things is the only way to do those things.

 

I'll also note that the perceived value of those DPS players relies on meters in most cases. With no meters to tell who's doing how much damage, DPS players aren't busily patting themselves on the back, because exactly how much they're helping isn't clear. So, again, this was true in WoW, but that was because of a lot of things that existed there that don't exist here.

 

- Without enrage timers, progression would be entirely eliminated as gear is not important. Fresh level 50's can step into the hardest raid instance provided they understand the mechanics.

- With progression all but eliminated, you've just singlehandedly reduced the content lifespan of the game

 

More of the same. There are still other ways to tune encounters, besides enrage timers. You can use terrain, adds, changes in boss behaviour, timed debuffs, timed buffs... there are a ton of other ways to approach raids/flashpoints. You can prevent players from using heals during certain times, add periodic DoTs, or (a personal favorite) have debuffs that lead to players exploding if not treated in time. You can even have the boss react based on how much time has passed, rather than on the % of their health that they've reached (e.g. every 5 minutes, something happens); thus you can "penalize" people who are moving slowly, and "reward" balanced groups, while still allowing for a greater variety of group choices.

 

All of these options can allow boss encounters to be interesting and challenging. None of these options rely on enrage timers.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Aloro

[Vaalix]

If they need enrage timers to block people then their mechanics for the fight are not challenging enough.

 

I never experienced enrage timers when I played eq2 and raided a lot.. maybe they came after I left but it wasn't till rift that I experienced them and I thought it was such a cheezy mechanic that made no sense. I think its an easy way to block progress in a raid environment, and looking back now on eq2 I think we were spoiled.

[Ansultares]

Enrage timers are there to push people forward. But also to lock that content down to the gear needed. Too many people go in these instances or operations with low end gear, expecting to clear the content. they hit the enraged timer. then come on here and moan disregarding their rotation or gear needs some work.

 

What I dont like is no difference in mechnics between the difficulty modes. Adding an enraged timer is not enough

It'd probably better if they couldn't even get the boss to 95% than it is that they can get any boss to 40% and then guaranteed wipe at the enrage.

[Vaalix]

Enrage timers are integral to raiding and MMO's as a genre. Removing them would unravel the genre because:

 

- Without enrage timers you can stack tanks and healers making everything trivially easy (even if it takes an hour to kill the boss)

- Without enrage timers the player doesn't feel the drive to improve his or her playing skills

- Without enrage timers the player doesn't feel the drive to improve his or her gear

- Improvements in gear would not seem significant (no obvious effects since the boss will die regardless), thus further reducing the drive. Thus there is little motivation to raid past story mode, since all that's changing is having improved gear drops

- Without enrage timers, good DPS players are not valued as much, alienating most PvE players (statistically and historically, most players have always gravitated towards DPS roles)

- Without enrage timers, progression would be entirely eliminated as gear is not important. Fresh level 50's can step into the hardest raid instance provided they understand the mechanics.

- With progression all but eliminated, you've just singlehandedly reduced the content lifespan of the game

 

I'm sorry, but without enrages (soft or hard), you've pretty much unravelled the core concepts of an MMO, unless you have a magical developer team that can create unlimited content. This game isn't a sandbox where you just explore forever - at level cap, you need to buckle down and have some concept of character progression.

 

Admittedly, soft enrages are more interesting and contribute more to immersion of the fight if they are done well. Hard enrages are a bit strange from an in-universe point of view but are extremely exciting, especially if you play a DPS role. You'd know the feeling if you've been working on a boss for weeks and get it a few % lower each week due to gear upgrades, and then the cheering on Mumble/Vent as your guild downs the boss, finally. That's what raiding is all about, not whittling away on a boss for hours with 15 healers and 1 tank.

sounds like you never raided in anything but wow.. There is a whole world of other mmo's out there that did raids better than wow and the enrage timer is just a lazy mechanic to block people.

 

The fight should be about a strategy. In eq2 normally every 20% of health meant the boss would do something different and your raid of 20 people would have to work in union with one another to compensate or wipe. It was more about timing an aoe properly, or curing the tank fast enough etc.. It wasn't about tank and spanking and having enough dps to kill the mob in 10 minutes.. In fact, I think if a group of lesser geared people take 45 minutes to kill a boss over the top geared guilds who do it in 10mins.. whats the beef? They still did it.. They beat the piss poor design of the fight only to be **** blocked at a pathetic mechanic that makes absolutely no sense..

Edited March 16, 2012 by rakkiki

[Vlaxitov]

the enrage timer is just a lazy mechanic to block people.

 

People who complain about enrage timers are too lazy to beat the mechanic.

[Kaskava]

I think that's rather boring. I would rather see a that Madness Sorc play lightning Sorc if he wants to, instead of being forced to Madness / Hybrid because it has 100 more dps according to the theory crafters.

 

Gear checks shouldn't be needed. If a team of people is good enough and well coordinated enough, player skill should matter more then if they are wearing a set of armor that makes their toon look the way they want (especially on an RP server).

 

You already can. My guild's constant five man group consists of two tanks. We've been running with two tanks since we hit 50. It's rare for us to hit an enrage timer, ever. Hell, I've hit them more often with two DPS then I have with my standard group. So, no, they aren't counter-productive. If people can't avoid hitting them, then they're just bad. Plain and simple.

[Aloro]

People who complain about enrage timers are too lazy to beat the mechanic.

 

That makes no sense at all. There are valid reasons not to like enrage timers, even if you can beat them. Try reading the thread a bit more closely; this isn't about player skill, but about design choices.

[Drgkain]

I don't think a lack of enrage timers would stop progression or hurt professions. Just the opposite.

 

More people would be able to progress because the "casual" guilds would be able to do it, even if it takes them longer.

 

Professions would benefit because now orange gear would actually be worth something at 50 and as such, would sell better.

 

 

As a side note, If people only were the optimal spec for DPS, everyone would role the same class. Let's say the Sniper was able to pull 2K DPS while the Other DPS classes are at 1.6K and 1.4K. You are being penalized for not being a Sniper at that point and by some peoples opinion this board are a bad player because you did not choose the obvious best class and dps spec.