Enrage Timers Counter Productive?

[Serahn]

I disagree, you should be using a spec you enjoy to play. Even if that spec is somewhat suboptimal, it should still be possible to do any non-raid content (for hardmode and nightmare OPS I can see your point, but those aren't meant for more casual playstyles anyway).

 

 

You really need to look at the other side of your point. You are saying the game is too hard because you play the way you want to.

 

So you are saying you want to play professional football. You think it would be really fun to throw the game winning touchdown and be carried off the field and get to scream into the camera that you're going to Disneyworld.

 

Yet, you don't want to do the two a day practices in the sun from the age of 15 on. You would rather not, control your diet, live in the gym or spend countless hours watching film and studying strategies. Frankly you would just rather sit on your couch until Sunday when you show up with two minutes left in the game and take the field.

 

AND you want every one to slow down, and not try as hard because that's the way that you prefer to play.

 

Enrage timers, much like damage meters, probably hurt your feelbad because they point out that your preferred method of playing is substantially below average.

 

And you want this game to accommodate that? Congratulations you are officially the 1 percent on this issue, and if you had your way the other 99 percent who do the research and play hard get to suffer.

 

That's kind of fail, don't you think?

[Vlaxitov]

That makes no sense at all. There are valid reasons not to like enrage timers, even if you can beat them. Try reading the thread a bit more closely; this isn't about player skill, but about design choices.

 

Next time try reading the post that the reply was meant for. No, theres not valid reasons for not liking enrage timers across the board. I <3 enrage timers because I can play DPS and hot have to hear people who play tanks or healers go on about just how much more important they are and how much more skill it takes.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Vlaxitov

[Serahn]

Next time try reading the post that the reply was meant for. No, theres not valid reasons for not liking enrage timers across the board. I <3 enrage timers because I can play DPS and hot have to hear people who play tanks or healers go on about just how much more important they are and how much more skill it takes.

 

Actually that's a really good point. Tanking is HARDER and does require more skill, as does healing.

 

BUT!!!!!

 

In SWTOR, with almost every boss having an enrage timer, means the DPS has a real job now. Unlike WoW, and other places where Enrages are the exception and not the rule.

 

This makes the group co-dependent, unlike the aforementioned games where DPS is just the people your bring along and hope they don't talk much.

 

I never thought of it like that.

=D

[Ansultares]

Then why have a choice of spec why even offer a choice? The whole concept is so archaic

 

Oh you put that one point in everlasting flagellation instead Burp of doom YOU AREEEE BADDDD!!!!!

You could ask around for help, or do some research on your own. I found the talent choices fairly self-explanatory just off previous MMO experience, and outright obvious once you had played around some at 50.

 

Explain to me how burden of knowledge is a bad thing; it's something casuals can do, at their own pace and on their own schedule no less, possibly even while at work.

[Kaskava]

I don't think a lack of enrage timers would stop progression or hurt professions. Just the opposite.

 

More people would be able to progress because the "casual" guilds would be able to do it, even if it takes them longer.

 

Professions would benefit because now orange gear would actually be worth something at 50 and as such, would sell better.

 

Your idea of the "casual" guild, which is my idea of a bad guild, can progress. Do you have any idea how easy normal mode OPs are? When your wiping more to bugs and people running off the wrong ledge, you know a fight is really face-roll.

 

Really, if you can't beat a fight because of a single enrage timer, you're doing something wrong.

 

 

As a side note, If people only were the optimal spec for DPS, everyone would role the same class. Let's say the Sniper was able to pull 2K DPS while the Other DPS classes are at 1.6K and 1.4K. You are being penalized for not being a Sniper at that point and by some peoples opinion this board are a bad player because you did not choose the obvious best class and dps spec.

 

Not true. Either they'd play it, and be good enough to raid with that class, or they wouldn't. Just that simple.

[Drgkain]

Your idea of the "casual" guild, which is my idea of a bad guild, can progress. Do you have any idea how easy normal mode OPs are? When your wiping more to bugs and people running off the wrong ledge, you know a fight is really face-roll.

 

Really, if you can't beat a fight because of a single enrage timer, you're doing something wrong.

 

 

 

 

Not true. Either they'd play it, and be good enough to raid with that class, or they wouldn't. Just that simple.

 

Attack the posters! You didn't read an earlier post. WE have cleared all Normal mode Operations and Hard Mode Eternity Vault. Going to be trying HM Kaaraga soon. I play a sorc, I know that I personally have the highest dps in my ops group and I am quite good with my sorc. I am the person who researches and switches to the highest dps spec at least until I am geared nicely, then I will switch to what I prefer to play.

 

My point is, Enrage timers pose no ACTUAL value. If a Ops is good and they down the boss in 2 minutes, what harm comes to them if another op takes 7 hours to kill the same boss?

What does it matter if another Ops that isn't as good as yours can clear the same content you can but they take 10 times longer.

[Jenzali]

@Aloro: Indeed I did single out DPS assuming a roughly tank-and-spank fight but my point was that changing raid comps between every fight is generally frowned upon by nearly all MMO developers as something that shouldn't be needed to be done.

 

Neither did I say that enrage timers are the only thing that makes a fight difficult. What makes a fight difficult is the combination of mechanics and keeping all of these in check while still having a time limit. Let's face it, there are very few mechanics that are so difficult that given unlimited time, they would still be difficult. Anyone can pick up a few adds and kill them. What makes the fight difficult is picking them up, killing them efficiently, using cooldowns at appropriate times and switching targets quickly and planning your rotation accordingly. Enrage timers allow these aspects to still exist.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Jenzali

[Kaskava]

Attack the posters! You didn't read an earlier post. WE have cleared all Normal mode Operations and Hard Mode Eternity Vault. Going to be trying HM Kaaraga soon. I play a sorc, I know that I personally have the highest dps in my ops group and I am quite good with my sorc. I am the person who researches and switches to the highest dps spec at least until I am geared nicely, then I will switch to what I prefer to play.

 

My point is, Enrage timers pose no ACTUAL value. If a Ops is good and they down the boss in 2 minutes, what harm comes to them if another op takes 7 hours to kill the same boss?

What does it matter if another Ops that isn't as good as yours can clear the same content you can but they take 10 times longer.

 

Then where's the value in it? Where's the sense of accomplishment? With your idea, the bosses would be come completely meaningless, and negate every aspect of skill whatsoever. There'd be no need to plan, strategize, or improve beyond the actual gear. There'd be no point in it, since you can do everything through simple erosion.

 

That sounds cool.

[Esproc]

I don't think a lack of enrage timers would stop progression or hurt professions. Just the opposite.

 

More people would be able to progress because the "casual" guilds would be able to do it, even if it takes them longer..

 

So "casual" guilds would need this crutch to be able to do the content, but only slower. lol

 

Bad choice, as I don't use any type of crutch (well, my cane, but only for long walks) in my game play, never have, no use for it, and I've out performed higher geared mod/addon/meter using min-maxers. These people were in one of my old raiding guilds and would always say how much better I would be if I used them, but I did it all the raids without that junk.

 

I believe you need to learn your character from the start. And yes I hate it when a game would change the mechanics and I would have to relearn my character, but it was also a fun challenge, not boring sitting on junk in front of a dummy and reading a post on just how I should set my character up to get some supposed max build.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Esproc

[Jett-Rinn]

You could ask around for help, or do some research on your own. I found the talent choices fairly self-explanatory just off previous MMO experience, and outright obvious once you had played around some at 50.

 

Explain to me how burden of knowledge is a bad thing; it's something casuals can do, at their own pace and on their own schedule no less, possibly even while at work.

 

Perfect example of how deaf the hardcores are.

 

Nowhere did I say I needed help with my spec..god I have been doing it long enough.

 

What I said is it sucks because there is only one spec that is acceptable to the myopic min/maxers and since there is only one way.... why have the idiotic choice in the first place?

 

Knowledge for enlightenment is a good thing, but putting up C blocks just to force someone to go look up the spec dujour (which is what 99% of people end up doing) to mimic depth is as I said stupid.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Jett-Rinn

[Drgkain]

Sense of accomplishment comes when you beat it on Nightmare and get your spiffy title.

[Kaskava]

Sense of accomplishment comes when you beat it on Nightmare and get your spiffy title.

 

Not if you can do it using simple ersionary tactics. Let's just use 14 tanks! No one will die! Fantastic!

 

Look guys, we killed it! That was so awesome, the way we were all just able to hit 1, and not really care about pushing ourselves!

 

Now what?

[Drgkain]

Try doing the SOA fight on NM with 14 tanks... You HAVE to have DPS otherwise everyone gets trapped in the prisons.

 

I actually love that fight... when it doesn't glitch. It use's various mechanics that will stop bad players without having a hard enrage.

[Ansultares]

What I said is it sucks because there is only one spec that is acceptable to the myopic min/maxers and since there is only one way why have the idiotic choice in the first place?

 

Knowledge for enlightenment is a good thing, but putting up C blocks just to force someone to go look up the spec dujour (which is what 99% of people end up doing) to mimic depth is as I said stupid.

Sounds like you have an issue with people, not with the game.

 

Find a better guild? Don't raid? Switch between the two?

 

Sense of accomplishment comes when you beat it on Nightmare and get your spiffy title.

I don't use titles, or have friendly nameplates displayed.

 

Title = meaningless.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Ansultares

[Kaskava]

Try doing the SOA fight on NM with 14 tanks... You HAVE to have DPS otherwise everyone gets trapped in the prisons.

 

I actually love that fight... when it doesn't glitch. It use's various mechanics that will stop bad players without having a hard enrage.

 

And if they made every fight like that, great, they could do away with the whole damn thing. But they wont. Besides, if it takes your raid so long to kill a boss, then wouldn't the prisons act as a soft enrage? Since you're clearly having a DPS issue to begin with?

[Jett-Rinn]

Sounds like you have an issue with people, not with the game.

 

Find a better guild? Don't raid? Switch between the two?

 

.

 

/facepalm

 

The people would be inconsequential if not for the bad mechanic.

 

Forget it you will never ever grasp it.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Jett-Rinn

[Drgkain]

The difference with that fight is, it isn't an instant death and he doesn't get more powerful, also unlike the previous fight (Infernal Council), if one person isn't pulling their weight, the other dps can pick up the slack. On the Infernal Council, if one person isn't pulling the their weight, the encounter resets and you can't do a whole lot to help them.

[Snoodmaster]

Enrage timers serve a very useful purpose in raid design.

 

Not just as gear checks, or raid checks, but to make sure that the raid spends the appropriate amount of time on the boss. The designers don't want to create a boss that people just throw themselves at hours on end. After a while that stops being fun and players doing that don't experience the fight the way it was intended. With an enrage timer, you set the upper limit for how long the fight should last.

 

This game isn't FF11. People don't want to spend 18 hours on a single boss. http://www.destructoid.com/final-fantasy-xi-boss-causes-vomiting-takes-18-hours-to-beat-99391.phtml

Edited March 16, 2012 by Snoodmaster

[Kendaric]

You really need to look at the other side of your point. You are saying the game is too hard because you play the way you want to.

 

So you are saying you want to play professional football. You think it would be really fun to throw the game winning touchdown and be carried off the field and get to scream into the camera that you're going to Disneyworld.

 

Yet, you don't want to do the two a day practices in the sun from the age of 15 on. You would rather not, control your diet, live in the gym or spend countless hours watching film and studying strategies. Frankly you would just rather sit on your couch until Sunday when you show up with two minutes left in the game and take the field.

 

AND you want every one to slow down, and not try as hard because that's the way that you prefer to play.

 

Enrage timers, much like damage meters, probably hurt your feelbad because they point out that your preferred method of playing is substantially below average.

 

And you want this game to accommodate that? Congratulations you are officially the 1 percent on this issue, and if you had your way the other 99 percent who do the research and play hard get to suffer.

 

That's kind of fail, don't you think?

 

It's easy to judge someone when you don't know him, isn't it?

 

No, I don't think the content in the game is too hard in general. No, I don't expect a completely gimped character in green quest rewards to be able to clear content. What I do expect, however, is that a reasonable spec is viable without forcing cookie-cutter specs.

If you had actually read the post you quoted, you'd have noticed that I specifically refered to non-raid content (i.e. hardmode flashpoints). I wouldn't even have an issue with the timers in the flashpoints, if those flashpoints wouldn't be needed for high-level crafting as it's the only way to gain "Biometric Crystal Alloy".

 

I can fully understand why the timers exist in hard and nightmare mode raids, I don't have any issues with them being there (besides the fact that enrage timers are somewhat lazy design). The upcoming story mode for raids probably won't have timers, and I for one have no interest in the harder tiers anyway.

[ferroz]

Then where's the value in it? Where's the sense of accomplishment? With your idea, the bosses would be come completely meaningless, and negate every aspect of skill whatsoever. There'd be no need to plan, strategize, or improve beyond the actual gear. There'd be no point in it, since you can do everything through simple erosion.

the notion that beating an enrage timer takes more skill than being able to survive against a boss long term really just says that the content is not challenging.

 

There's nothing inherently more skillful about roflstomping something fast... in fact, on hard bosses, it's not uncommon to see people focusing on downing a boss fast because fighting them for very long is hard. So in that case, going for an erosion strat is the skill based strat; focusing on fast dps is the "hope we get lucky" strat.

 

If they stopped using enrage timers as a crutch, they might actually make the content challenging...

[Blackavaar]

In order to complete Hard Mode Flashpoints or Operations you need to get the gear that is dropped in Hard Mode Flashpoints and Operations? Does no one else see the problem with that logic?

 

I've done many many Flashpoints where I don't get a single drop for my class, or something drops but somebody else wins the roll (sometimes a person who is not even the proper class because they say, "I needed it for my companion.":rolleyes:).

 

Edited March 16, 2012 by Blackavaar

[Serahn]

It's easy to judge someone when you don't know him, isn't it?

 

No, I don't think the content in the game is too hard in general. No, I don't expect a completely gimped character in green quest rewards to be able to clear content. What I do expect, however, is that a reasonable spec is viable without forcing cookie-cutter specs.

If you had actually read the post you quoted, you'd have noticed that I specifically refered to non-raid content (i.e. hardmode flashpoints). I wouldn't even have an issue with the timers in the flashpoints, if those flashpoints wouldn't be needed for high-level crafting as it's the only way to gain "Biometric Crystal Alloy".

 

I can fully understand why the timers exist in hard and nightmare mode raids, I don't have any issues with them being there (besides the fact that enrage timers are somewhat lazy design). The upcoming story mode for raids probably won't have timers, and I for one have no interest in the harder tiers anyway.

 

I actually read every word, I am sorry to say.

 

So, what you are saying then is, that rare crafting material, which is hard to get, needs to be easier to get?

 

Sorry dude, there is nothing cookie cutter about my spec. I picked every point with care and design.

 

I know your type, I had to break the hearts of several of my guildies who didn't see the importance of the 31 point talent. They would rather have their 13/13/14 specs underutilizing their class skills so they can have the best of three worlds.

 

That's fail. You are free to play however you want, just like I am free to play however I want. But like I told my guildies who I benched because they wouldn't listen, is that this game is designed to make each class pull its weight and the four members of four person HM FP team each have to do their part.

 

If they can't or in your case, won't, I cannot help. And because of that I have almost an entire bank tab for Biometric Crystal Alloys because I can clear a HM in about 30 mins with properly specc'd guildies.

 

Face it, you don't like being told what to do. It's as simple as that.

[Aloro]

Next time try reading the post that the reply was meant for. No, theres not valid reasons for not liking enrage timers across the board. I <3 enrage timers because I can play DPS and hot have to hear people who play tanks or healers go on about just how much more important they are and how much more skill it takes.

 

Erm, right back at you. You seem not to have read or understood my post.

 

Yes, there are valid reasons not to like enrage timers, that have nothing at all to do with being unable to beat them. Yes, there are also reasons why some people like enrage timers, but that in no way lessens the reasons others have for not liking them. Moreover, your reasons for liking enrage timers are fairly selfish; you don't want other players to feel special. That's not a compelling argument.

[Aloro]

@Aloro: Indeed I did single out DPS assuming a roughly tank-and-spank fight but my point was that changing raid comps between every fight is generally frowned upon by nearly all MMO developers as something that shouldn't be needed to be done.

 

By "raid comps" are you referring to group composition? Because again, what you're relying on is tradition, not any sort of argument for why things need to be that way.

 

I'm not advocating a design that would in any sense require people to change group composition between every fight. If that's what you're talking about, I have no idea where you got that.

 

Neither did I say that enrage timers are the only thing that makes a fight difficult.

 

Well, yes, you kinda did. You repeatedly stated that enrage timers are the only things that motivate people to improve their gear or skill, for instance. That's more or less the same thing as saying they're the only mechanics that matter.

 

Regardless, I agree with your current view: enrage timers aren't the only way to build boss fights. Further, I think they're a fairly poor mechanic overall, with more downsides than advantages. But your mileage may vary.

[Aloro]

Enrage timers serve a very useful purpose in raid design.

 

Not just as gear checks, or raid checks, but to make sure that the raid spends the appropriate amount of time on the boss. The designers don't want to create a boss that people just throw themselves at hours on end. After a while that stops being fun and players doing that don't experience the fight the way it was intended. With an enrage timer, you set the upper limit for how long the fight should last.

 

This game isn't FF11. People don't want to spend 18 hours on a single boss. http://www.destructoid.com/final-fantasy-xi-boss-causes-vomiting-takes-18-hours-to-beat-99391.phtml

 

That's not terribly logical.

 

In FFXI, bosses were explicitly designed to require many hours to kill. That is to say, the designers didn't want ANYONE killing them in a short period.

 

In SWTOR, the bosses are designed such that an optimal group can down them in a matter of minutes; not hours, and not a dozen or more hours. But, some people suggest, without the enrage timers (and with the addition of other mechanics to keep difficulty up), it'd ALSO be possible for non-optimal groups, in some cases, to brute force their way through the fight, completing it in a far longer period. Longer, in this sense, might mean 20 or 30 or 40 minutes instead of 5.

 

And again I ask, where's the harm in this?

 

The fight isn't being designed for that longer duration; that's only a consequence of a suboptimal group. And even then, for that worst case scenario, we'd be talking about tens of minutes, not tens of hours, so the comparison is misleading.

 

I agree that nobody wants fights designed to last for many hours. I'd even argue that people don't want a single fight to last for an hour; that just gets tedious. Been there, done that. But I don't agree - at all - that enrage timers are the only or the best way to make sure fights don't take 18 hours.